<p>Hi. I'm relatively new on this CC thing, but I read many of the posts and am grateful for all of the opinions and tips.
Our eldest just got two more acceptances today and our/his dilemma has now compounded. Our situation is too much home equity and middle class income to qualify for aid; brilliant kid who lives to read and learn (as lots of these kids are); has attended IBMYP grades 6-8 and then gifted magnet school 9-12; three younger siblings graduating hs in 2008, 2009, and 2011.
Here are my questions, any help from those who have had similar experiences would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance:
-Realistically, by the time we have two, and then three in undergrad at the same time, will financial aid be reevaluated? We can scrape together and sacrifice for two years of expenses, but after that I don't know how we could possibly come up with the funds for the remaining 14 years of college for the four kids. We have alot of home equity through tons of sweat labor and hate to have to sell the house, but borrowing on the equity beyond two years of fees would make the monthly payments impossible.
-Is an ivy or top LAC education really worth full price when he can go to a top Va public for practically nothing (prepaid tuition plan, so it's already paid for ) or a decent, but not top LAC where he just received $15,000/year scholarship plus one time $3000 stipend plus would get add'l $2000/year as a NMF. How do we all weigh the expense versus the experience?
I don't know if I'm explaining this too well, I just feel overwhelmed and want to guide him to be able to make the decision that will make him happiest IN THE LONG RUN. Chances are great that he'll go on to doctorate level and that will be a huge amount of debt. We also have to consider how to be fair to all four kids. If we knew that by the time he was a senior and we had two more in college our costs would not escalate tremendously, we would try to be reasonable with his share of the expense. I'm too confused to even ask the right questions. I need a "decision" fairy godmother! If only it was that easy.
Thanks for reading this long post.</p>
<p>1) Yes, financial aid is re-evaluated every year. So if there are more kids in college, your EFC for each kid will go down.</p>
<p>2) Personally, having spent over 20 years paying off college loans, I'd go for the top-notch Va school that's already paid for. If he really likes the LAC where he just got money, so that it's a good "fit", that's another great option. Sometimes it just comes down to "gut feeling."</p>
<p>You may want to sit down with him and figure out what the loans would be, what payments would be, and what that would do to an after-college initial paycheck. That may put it all into perspective.</p>
<p>"he can go to a top Va public for practically nothing (prepaid tuition plan, so it's already paid for )".</p>
<p>Is it UVA? What does he hope to study?</p>
<p>Realistically, if you can't afford it, why is it even a choice? It isn't a matter of "worth". A Rolls might be worth $200k or might not be, but since I can't come up with $200k, it is "academic" to even ask the question. Rolls' aren't choices for me. I might like 'em, or I might not, but it doesn't really make any difference.</p>
<p>And congratulations on the wonderful REAL choices facing you! Don't trouble yourself about things beyond your or your son's control. (Would you be able to come up with the additional $110K for the LAC, or is that also a non-choice?)</p>
<p>He could also start out at the VA school & transfer it things don't work out. We have explained to our S that we can help him now for undergrad or for grad school, but not both. One thing to remember about grad school (particularly for pHds) is student may get significant funding by being a teaching assistant or may not.<br>
Just today, I heard about a girl who turned down Stanford with no aid to get her masters in engineering with Duke who gave her full funding in exchange for her teaching assistant services. If you don't spend the money on your child's undergrad education, you would have it available to help him go to his dream grad school.
Yes, my understanding is FAid is recalculated every year & the more kids in UNDERGRAD, they will divide the expected family contribution by the # of kids (grad students are expected to be independent & my understanding is their expenses aren't included).</p>
<p>
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Is an ivy or top LAC education really worth full price when he can go to a top Va public for practically nothing (prepaid tuition plan, so it's already paid for ) or a decent, but not top LAC where he just received $15,000/year scholarship plus one time $3000 stipend plus would get add'l $2000/year as a NMF. How do we all weigh the expense versus the experience?
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</p>
<p>I'd go with the top VA if it's already paid for. If the money can be re-used for next children, you might compare the top VA public with the "decent" LAC. How decent is decent? There's often not a huge difference between schools, and some of the difference has little direct impact on the student's experience. And a stellar student at a decent school can get a great education. </p>
<p>I do think that if more than one child is in college at the same time, financial aid and EFC are recalculated; call the financial aid office of the LAC and ask. At the same time, would you be able to comfortably foot the bill for the difference between the full tution room and board and the scholarship awards ($17k per year plus the one-time $3k stipend)? At many LACs, the full cost of attendance (COA) hovers around or even above $40k. So you would be responsible for $23k per year plus inflation over the next threee years.</p>
<p>I'd go with the top VA school. You don't need to be increasing your mortgage with 3 other kids (and their expenses). </p>
<p>Congrats on having a super kid (and kids)!</p>
<p>Another superficial vote for the top-notch Va school. If he is admitted to UVa or W&M and he's happy with either - its not worth it.</p>
<p>Some other thoughts - what are the academics/ socials of the other kids shaping up to be? Do they all have pre-paids? Do you have one coming along who doesn't have the academic chops for a top school, but seems to need the nurturing of a LAC (I know this is speculation, but you should have some idea)? I have a kid like that, and although we have a pre-paid, I can't see any of those choices being right for him - he needs one of those small "Colleges That Change Lives". But without merit money, those will be expensive. If you have a child like that, then the full tuition might need to go to that child, and help the older in some other way, perhaps when you do sell the house.</p>
<p>Don't forget that the EFC is one number (although the total may fluctuate as your assets change) that is divided by the number of kiddos in college. What is the largest number you will have at any one time? </p>
<p>Do you get money back from the pre-paid if he chooses the LAC (we have for our older child, every little bit helps). $17000 plus the contribution from the pre-pay plus any earnings he can get this summer (will that affect any of the money from the LAC?), should make the LAC not too bad, although if it doesn't meet 100% of need, or if your EFC is sky high, then you will probably be responsible for the shortfall from the merit aid over all 4 years.</p>
<p>VA does have several awesome state schools. If our state had comparable schools, it would be much more tempting to urge our kids to state at in-state U. My friend's D went to UVa as an OOS where she just graduated. She as able to do scientific research as a freshman & enjoyed her years there!
The needs/abilities of your other kids are something to keep in mind as well. Not all kids have the same needs & abilities. I think my younger D may have more challenges along her educational path than S has had. She too may benefit from "Colleges that Change Lives" types of schools, so we'll have to see what offers S ends up & what merit aid (unlikely D will get any merit aid).</p>
<p>Wow, thanks so much for all of the replies. Had to get dinner going and off to girl scouts soon, but I'm glad to hear about the financial aid hope in the future. I think it's so hard because he is such an avid learner who loves to learn everything (he's learning Italian to read Dante's Inferno without the translation changing anything, it's that important to him). His dad and I vowed a few years ago that VA had great schools and that was all we would pay for, but now we're not so sure. He'd like the "change" of a different part of the country and I think he wants the most stimulation both from peers and profs that he can get. It doesn't help that last year his gc told him W&M would be his safety school when we were aiming for a list of good fits (UVa is too big).
We have pre-paid tuition plans for all the kids, paying off monthly. We live modestly for our area (cut coupons, clearance shop, do ALL of our home repairs and stuff ourselves - we don't pay anyone to do anything, truly) but we have a nice house and drive old cars. Anyway, we could eat more spaghetti and manage to add to our debt a bit for the top schools. The prepaid tuition will equal to about $4000 per year that VA wiould pay to wherever he goes, so that does help. Don't know if we could transfer his amounts to his siblings' accounts and pay those off, I'll need to check and I never thought of that.
Our other children are also bright, the next in line is different, but just as bright and will probably also be a NMF; the girls are also advanced but a VA school will be more than challenging for them. By then, we'll be too broke for anything else, anyway.
I wish I could convince him that W&M is a great school; I was thrilled to go there from oos and loved it! But I do want him to be happy and he sees so many kids from his high school go on to the ivies, MIT etc and the top LACs that he has a narrowed perception of just how rare it is to go to these type schools. He is in at Amherst, Midd(likely letter), Haverford, W&M(Monroe), Wash U(schol finalist), St. John's, Dickinson(scholarship), waiting on two ivies(only now interested in one) and Swat. His interests are languages, classics, math, physics, history and english(so no idea what direction he'll take).
I think maybe making him write the pros and cons from his point of view and us showing him ours could help. I think a huge part of the dilemma is our feeling guilt if we make him base his decision on our finances due to his having siblings. If he was an only child, we'd let him choose without considering the money. I guess we have to hope that it will all somehow fall into place and he will be where he is meant to be come next year. We are dropping him off for overnight visits at several of his favorites over spring break, so at least we hope his decision will be an informed one.
Thanks again, off to girl scouts!</p>
<p>Wow, your S does sound like a neat kid & motivated learner. It IS a tough call. Some folks have paid for undergrad in the 1/3 system--pay 1/3 as you go & use loans for the rest, with the loans to be split between child & parent once the child graduates.
We may face a similar situation once we hear from the schools my son is still waiting from -- there are 4 more. He has gotten merit aid from one, full ride from another & is waiting on any merit award on a 3rd. These kinds of decisoins are really tough for everyone.</p>
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Chances are great that he'll go on to doctorate level and that will be a huge amount of debt.
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Not that this should change your decision, but grad school is usually free.</p>
<p>Students don't pay anything out of their pocket at most schools, and in fact at the most prestigious schools students get an outright scholarship (called a"grant") with no duties required. Typically health care insurance is also provided. For example Yale says "The steady trend of financial aid at Yale has been toward full funding for all Ph.D. students, and few schools can rival the breadth of support that Yale provides. Of the approximately 410 Ph.D. students entering the Graduate School in the fall of 2004, all were offered a financial aid package consisting of four years of full tuition, at least four years of stipend support (minimum $17,000 in 2004-2005), and comprehensive health care coverage."</p>
<p>Even when the school does not offer blanket grants, a student who finds an advisor with a research or other grant can often fund students from that grant. And at almost all schools you have the chance to be a TA or RA (research associate), and that job covers the cost of school and living expenses.</p>
<p>Its not a fancy living, but if you're used to being a starving student from undergrad you might find it comfortable.</p>
<p>Sewbusy, You should not feel guilty about having financial constraints because you have multiple children. I believe that there is no better gift to a child than a sibling (or siblings). There were 10 children in my family, and my brothers and sisters make my life much richer than any particular college could have.</p>
<p>About your situation now, are you sure that the home equity will be included in the financial aid calculation? From what I've read lately, many colleges that used to consider it are now changing their approach. Shouldn't you know soon what each college will offer? You'll be in a better position then to make decisions. I saw a thread here just the other day on how to compare financial aid offers. </p>
<p>I see that your son is in the running for a scholarship at Wash U - isn't that considered one of the top schools?</p>
<p>I would also put grad school out of your mind. I have a Ph.D. in physics from HYP, and it didn't cost me a penny. I don't know anyone who pays for grad school in the sciences. Many people pay for professional schools (med, law, business), but they come out with very high earning potential.</p>
<p>Well, let's put this another way (as I did on the Rice/Stanford forum). And this is not rhetorical question. Assuming you had the money to pay list price at one of the LACs or an Ivy, etc. but no more than that, nd weren't worried about the other kids, would the education your son will receive there be worth a William & Mary education plus $150k in other educational opportunities you would now be free to provide him with? Three summers in Europe? A post-graduate year on an archaelogical dig in Greece? A year of painting in Italy? (actually, 3 years of each); a year of freedom while he writes his doctorate (and can free himself from a teaching load.)</p>
<p>A W&M degree plus $150k in educational opportunities (or a downpayment on a big house!) would be an awful lot to pass up. So, if he passes it up in favor of the LAC or Ivy or whatever, is he quite clear what it is that he can't get through W&M that he (and you) are buying?</p>
<p>I realize that's not the question being posed; just another perspective. The one you have in front of you is how much your other children will have to forego in favor of his decision.</p>
<p>If I read your post correctly (am I missing something?), you don't really have a choice. You have regrets, what-ifs, don't-we-wish, it-isn't-fair, we-love-him-so-muches, he's-a-great-kid, but I don't actually read there is a choice to be made (or at least not without your other kids down the road resenting you -- and him -- for it.) Again, if I've read it correctly, are THEY part of the decisionmaking?</p>
<p>Lucky for all of you, however, is the reality that W&M ain't Podunk State!</p>
<p>I would say the atmosphere at W & M is less rarefied than what I imagine your son would find at an Ivy or Swat/Amherst, but not to such an extent that it would hold him back in any way, especially a kid who is learning Italian so he can read the original Dante! His fellow students at W & M would be a very bright, energetic, focused, and creative bunch (which, as an alum, you know). As a Monroe Scholar, his peers would include many kids who were in at bigger-name schools but chose W & M because, while there is SOME difference in quality, for them it wasn't worth the large difference in cost - my d's roommmate turned down Yale; her boyfriend turned down Princeton. The W & M faculty is certainly world-class (very few adjuct profs there, either).</p>
<p>I think it's really too bad the GC initially portrayed W & M as his safety school. In addition to your son's obviously outstanding academic qualifications, he/she may have been referring to the fact that he's a legacy, an in-state student, and male. The geographic region within VA is also a factor. I feel such a pang when I hear that W & M is a safety for anyone - while I'm sure it's true, it's my 10th grader's current dream school, and it's gonna be a reach (fingers crossed already).</p>
<p>It's understandable that he'd like to expand his horizons. His study stipend as a Monroe would let him do that, with very few strings attached. I know kids who have studied on every continent except Antarctica - there are probably those kids, too, but I haven't met 'em. </p>
<p>My two cents - I'd gently encourage W & M, with the possibility of transferring if he's unhappy (and after he's taken advantage of the Monroe stipend). Those three younger children will be looking at colleges in an eye-blink. Good luck to all of you and congrats on raising such an amazing kid!</p>
<p>I think you also need to be specific about the caliber of schools, and names specifically you are referring to. UVA vs. Harvard, well yes it is perhaps worth the financial burdern, but as one pointed out earlier in the post, f. aid is reevaluated so the more kids you have in college, the more help you will receive. If this kid is brilliant, your most imporatant goal is to be sure he is properly challenged and if he is destined to do great things, put him in an atmosphere where that is a breeding ground for it to happen. UVA is an excellent school but it is not an ivy.</p>
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UVA is an excellent school but it is not an ivy.
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<p>Grrrr..... (from an Ivy parent). UVA and W&M are both excellent schools.</p>
<p>I would never "count on" grad school being "free". About half of the people (including myself and my husband) did receive grants for grad school. The other half did not. Also, I don't know many doctors or lawyers or pharmacists who received grant money to go to school so if your children seek that route......</p>
<p>When my d was in private school (elementary), tuition went up drastically, from $3500 to $7500. I was wrestling with the financials of keeping her there (and mine is an only). I said to a friend, "But she's learning French in 2nd grade." She looked at me and replied, "For $7500 you can rent a villa in France for a month and she'll learn French!"</p>
<p>That put it back in perspective. We moved her to public schools (we live in a district with good ones) and used some of the savings for enrichment programs.</p>
<p>(In other words, I agree with mini - what opportunities could you provide for him, not just his siblings, with the extra funds? Not just during college but after?)</p>
<p>Chedva:</p>
<p>Someone made the same argument to us, too, and we sent our Ss to public school. Except tuition around here was far more than $7500!</p>
<p>WandM is an excellent school. For OOS, it's as difficult to get into as an Ivy, so the level of scholarship there should not be an issue.</p>
<p>The real problem, as I understand it, is your son. In the spirit of his academic curiosity, he wants an adventure, and part of that is attending college out of state.</p>
<p>I'm going to go against the crowd: if you can afford a year of his top choice, then I'd let him go. Your EFC will drop every year because your savings will. By the time you reach your second child, you may have an EFC of zero. School 1 (where your oldest will probably be thriving) will want to keep him there, and so will offer (hopefully substantial) financial aid. School 2, where your second will want to go, will offer aid as well. Still, it is a gamble.</p>
<p>Even though your EFC goes down because you have four children, colleges still seem to want the parent to spend most of their savings for the first one. </p>
<p>Of course, if you cannot afford that first year, you'll have to level with your son. Explain that he gets only 1/4, and that, without aid, you just can't do it. While he will be disappointed, he needs to learn about fiscal responsibility and limitations. He'll sulk for a while, especially if his friends go OOS, but in the long run, he'll be fine.</p>
<p>I'd wait until you hear from the Ivies. They tend to be generous with financial aid for students who really need it. If he gets into his first choice and you don't get much aid, then you might want to call the financial aid office to find out what their thinking is when a family has four kids. They might be able to give you a better idea of what to expect. </p>
<p>Good luck! This is indeed a tough choice for you and your family.</p>