More on Harvard/Princeton cross-admit story

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Well that seems reasonable, also taking into account the very large number of Duke matriculants. It <em>might</em> also be the case that Princeton knows the matriculation rate will be high from that school and admits more than HSY...most kids, even from this school, would take Harvard over Princeton. It could be some form of self-reinforcing cycle. </p>

<p>You are right I think...Princeton is favored by Southerners, more than HSY. </p>

<p>But the question is, why is that?</p>

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<p>For one thing, it's a lot shorter drive.</p>

<p>You say "most kids, even from this school, would take Harvard over Princeton." Although this is true on the basis of revealed preference stats, these do not take into account those who choose ED. And furthermore, since we are talking about suburban DC, it is not my experience here among educated populations on the East Coast that there is a prestige differential between Harvard and Princeton.</p>

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<p>Yes, but there are a lot of Harvard SCEA kids who get into Princeton ED and choose Harvard. The vast majority of them will.</p>

<p>You are right about the ED factor though.</p>

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<p>I assume you mean they get into Princeton RD. As for SCEA, when students get in early anywhere, they tend to go there. However, on the original thread a TJ student says there were quite a few who were admitted to H and Y and who chose to go elsewhere (not necessarily P).</p>

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<p>Lawrenceville School, NJ 2005: 230 or so Graduates/Boarding school ( newsletter on website)
Pton 12
Harvrad 5
Yale 4
Columbia 5
Darmouth 4
Cornell 10
Penn 4
Brown 4
Stanford 4
MIT 2
Duke 5</p>

<p>Pingry NJ 125 in 2005</p>

<p>Harvard 5 ( 6 acc)
Yale 4( 5 Acc)
Columbia 2 (2acc)
Cornell 5( 11 Acc)
Penn 11( 12 Acc)
Darmouth 3 ( 33 Acc)
Brown 4( % Acc5
Pton 4( 5 Acc)
Stanford 2( 4 Acc)
MIT 0 (1 Acc)</p>

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<p>Lawrenceville School, NJ 2005: 230 or so Graduates/Boarding school ( newsletter on website)
Pton 12
Harvrad 5
Yale 4
Columbia 5
Darmouth 4
Cornell 10
Penn 4
Brown 4
Stanford 4
MIT 2
Duke 5</p>

<p>Pingry NJ 125 in 2005</p>

<p>Harvard 5 ( 6 acc)
Yale 4( 5 Acc)
Columbia 2 (2acc)
Cornell 5( 11 Acc)
Penn 11( 12 Acc)
Darmouth 3 ( 33 Acc)
Brown 4( % Acc5
Pton 4( 5 Acc)
Stanford 2( 4 Acc)
MIT 0 (1 Acc)</p>

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<p>Princeton has a LONG history of being more southern-oriented. When we toured Princeton the tour guide proudly told how Princeton had been the only Ivy school that didn't kick out its students from the Confederate states at the outbreak of the Civil War.</p>

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<p>I go to Pingry, and let me tell you, we had a ton of applicants to Stanford. Among HYPS, Princeton had the most applicants (around 30), which makes sense, considering we're one of the many NJ feeder schools to Pton, followed by Stanford (about 20), Harvard (about 15) and Yale (less than 10). At my school, Stanford is every bit as popular as HYP, and more difficult to get into. And btw, you have some mistakes in your data. Dartmouth had 3 accepted, not 33, and Princeton had 6 accepted, not 5.</p>

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<p>"When we toured Princeton the tour guide proudly told how Princeton had been the only Ivy school that didn't kick out its students from the Confederate states at the outbreak of the Civil War."</p>

<p>I don't know where that student got that info. It is true that Princeton has long attracted Southerners, including slaveowners: <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/mudd/news/faq/topics/slavery.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/mudd/news/faq/topics/slavery.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>However, Yale, whose Calhoun College is named for a now-notorious politician and preeminent national advocate of states' rights and slavery, had many ties to the Confederacy.<br>
<a href="http://www.library.yale.edu/mssa/elms/19th.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.library.yale.edu/mssa/elms/19th.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As did Harvard: <a href="http://www.library.yale.edu/mssa/elms/article.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.library.yale.edu/mssa/elms/article.htm&lt;/a> "In 1850, 72 southerners were enrolled at Yale, 65 at Harvard, and 115 at Princeton. By 1860, only 33 remained at Yale while Harvard and Princeton remained stable with 63 and 113 respectively. The dramatic increases in southerners at Harvard and Princeton can be attributed, in part, to those universities' shifts away from a local perspective to a national one by mid-century. For the southern students who remained, the sectional instability only increased."</p>

<p>Harvard students served in both the Union and Confederate armies: <a href="http://hul.harvard.edu/huarc/civil_war.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://hul.harvard.edu/huarc/civil_war.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Ivies in general have a pretty shoddy record in this department. Brown, my alma mater, was founded by a slave trader.</p>

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<p>The fact that slave holders attended or donated money to all of the early US universities is not in doubt. Nor is there any reason to doubt that students and alumni from every school fought on both sides of the conflict. The point the P guide was making was that the university itself at least tacitly supported the Confenderacy by allowing Confederate students to remain enrolled once the fighting began.</p>

<p>The third of your above links seems to confirm the P guide's story with the exception that it states that Yale also did not kick out the students from Confederate states: <a href="http://www.library.yale.edu/mssa/elms/article.htm#SEC%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.library.yale.edu/mssa/elms/article.htm#SEC&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>" Unlike the majority of Ivy League schools during the secession crisis, Yale did not expel its southern students at the outbreak of the war, though the war itself would draw many men back home.</p>

<p>(paragraphs deleted)</p>

<p>It would be easy to conclude that the return of southern alumni to Yale and the voyages of new southern students would be strained by the events of the early 1860's, but the divisions did not settle as deeply as at many of the other Ivy League schools. With Harvard's proximity to Boston, the seat of abolition, and Brown's expulsion of its southern students during the war, Yale was left in a better position to restore post-war ties with the South. Only Princeton fared better, with its Presbyterian tradition and long-standing complacence toward slavery."</p>

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<p>You wrote, "Princeton has a LONG history of being more southern-oriented." The links I cited, it does confirm that, in direct opposition to the statement you cited from your tour guide, P was not alone in its action or lack thereof, and that at least one other Ivy has an equally LONG history of being southern-oriented.</p>

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<p>Right. It looks like the Princeton tour guide should have said that unlike the other Ivies, Princeton and Yale did not kick out their Confederate students at the outbreak of the Civil War.</p>

<p>What was odd was not so much what he said about Princeton's tolerance shown to the Confederacy, but that he was beaming with pride about it, that it was a point worth mentioning on the tour.</p>

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<p>And this bogus statement by one tour guide, and the expression as you interpreted it on his face, now lead you to draw what conclusion about the Princeton campus, administration, and student body?</p>

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<p>Byerly's post WAY earlier:</p>

<p>"Harvard undergrad has a pretty good reputation, I think.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Currently USNews ranks it #1 (tied with Princeton) as America's best undergraduate institution.</p></li>
<li><p>This group also ranks it #1 <a href="http://www.consusgroup.com/news/ran...es/colleges.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.consusgroup.com/news/ran...es/colleges.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/li>
<li><p>The "revealed preference" ranking of top college applicants ranks Harvard undergrad #1, <a href="http://post.economics.harvard.edu/f...prefranking.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://post.economics.harvard.edu/f...prefranking.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/li>
</ol>

<p>and -</p>

<ol>
<li><p>As we know, students admitted to Harvard College and also to one or more of its leading "competitors" - Stanford, MIT, Yale and Princeton - overwhelmingly prefer Harvard, as they have for some years.</p></li>
<li><p>This year, there were 23,000 applications for 1,640 slots, and nearly 80% of those admitted agreed to enroll - a higher yield rate than any other elite undergraduate institution in the United States of America.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>So, I guess I'd say your views are in the distinct minority!"</p>

<p>And really, all his posts about Harvard, remind me of a quote by Robert Kennedy (whom, I'm sure Byerly will point out, is a Harvard grad), about the economic statistic Gross National Product:</p>

<p>"The gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."</p>

<p>Maybe Byerly, and really many other people on these boards, should remember this ideal when we talk about and try to compare different universities. </p>

<p>"The [US News Ranking/Matriculation Rate/Acceptance Rate/Insert Statistic Here] does not allow for the incredible times you'll have in college. It does not include what your creative potential will become, or whether or not you'll meet the love of your life during your four years and have a happy marriage. Nor does it reflect your current or future intelligence or integrity, nor that of any of the university's other students. It measures neither the friends you'll make; neither how hard you'll push yourself to learn and grow as a person; neither the memories of what potentially could be the best four years of your life; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes college worthwhile. And it tells us everything about [insert college here] except why you will be happy there, and what you will most treasure and remember."</p>

<p>Eh?</p>

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<p>Just what I said earlier in the thread:</p>

<p>"Princeton has a LONG history of being more southern-oriented." - a history that dates back at least as far as the Civil War. The fact that the guide was mistaken about Yale doesn't change the point he was making about Princeton.</p>

<p>And it was more that just my "interpretation" of of his face than led me to believe that he was proud about Princeton's support of the Confederates. After he said that he Princeton didn't kick out the Confederate students, he further said that this meant a lot to him personally, since he was from North Carolina.</p>

<p>What this all means about the current school, I have no idea, but HE was the Princeton spokesman saying it, and HE was the face of Princeton to the public, not me.</p>

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<p>Calling P "the only Ivy" to follow that policy was a considerably more dramatic statement and one that surprised me. As we all know, the Ivies were, as a group, practicing all sorts of discrimination up until not very long ago, and so I found it hard to believe that P would be so unusual, in light of the fact that Y also had many Southerners and a fairly astonishing history around Calhoun. </p>

<p>Even recently at Yale there was a movement to rename Calhoun College after James Pennington, a black abolitionist who audited courses at Yale, and Morse College --whose namesake claimed that slavery "is ordained by God and the Bible" -- after the abolitionist James Hillhouse. "The university has debated [the issue] three or four times in the last 50 years and decided that acknowledging and understanding our past is appropriate," President Levin said. "Calhoun College is a place of its own right now—alumni think of Calhoun College with fond memories of their own time there. Changing [the name] now is changing that place that so many have such strong ties to. My view is that we should take the existence of Calhoun College as a fact of Yale's history, and not solely as a recognition of John C. Calhoun." I didn't look up any of the other Ivies, btw, except H and Y, so I have no idea what their policies were. </p>

<p>As for the guide being a Princeton "spokesman," that's an extremely unfortunate truth. As I said above, I think Harvard was smart to start paying its student guides so that they can train them and have more accountability. When we had a guide who was an absolute airhead at Columbia -- the one who said John Jay had given a lot of money to the university! -- we told the admissions office that they ought to know she was an embarrassment. </p>

<p>Personally, I would make a case for not kicking out the Confederate students on the grounds that I believe in the power of education to change minds. (Same reason Harvard admits children of dictators in other countries.) But that is clearly not where your student guide was coming from. And it is not where P or Y were coming from; they just weren't about to kick out a large percentage of their student body. And I could be wrong about that mind-changing idea -- after all, Bush went to Yale! But I digress...</p>

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<p>don't leave out frist and rumsfeld, who both went to princeton...</p>

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<p>Haha, don't remind me. ;)</p>

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<p>Well, again, those were his words and not mine. I had no particular reason to doubt it. Hopefully, P guides are not longer bragging about this particular point. In any case, I think that, whatever its history, P is currently a wonderful school and was my top choice for my D, although unfortunately it ranked no higher than 4th on her list.</p>

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<p>Sounds like NBER to me</p>