More questions about top academic schools

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>My D wants to major in piano performance and possibly psychology or French. Or something else. But music is what she’s sure about.</p>

<p>Question: which schools should she consider?</p>

<p>Here are the stats: Junior in a large public HS. 3.89 GPA. No SAT’s taken yet. She is taking one AP and one honors class this year, and probably will take 2 AP classes her senior year. </p>

<p>All college websites seem to have some version of the following statement: “We encourage applicants to take the most rigorous classes possible.” This schedule IS the most rigorous for my D to be able to devote the time she needs for music. And sleep more than 4 hours a night. But it doesn’t compare favorably with the AP-heavy loads some classmates are taking.</p>

<p>I don’t want to visit top-ranked academic schools and get my D excited about them, only to find out that she had no chance of ever getting in because she’s not taking 9 AP classes in high school. </p>

<p>The guidance counselors at HS don’t know about the music scene. Her piano teacher knows her piano ability but not her academics.</p>

<p>Who has some suggestions? Is it possible to get into a school like Rice, or Northwestern, for example, with stats like these? Or should we cross those off the list right now and save a lot of heartache later?</p>

2

<p>Top schools seem to appreciate and welcome students with this kind of dedication, and understand that some sacrifices were necessary, including some that were academic. </p>

<p>Just make sure that the schools know why the choices were made, either through the guidance counselor letter, a music teacher recommendation, or even a note by the family or the student essay (indirectly or directly).</p>

3

<p>Admission to Rice’s Shepherd School of Music probably would not be harmed by a lack of AP courses, but one would have to play piano very, very well to gain admission. My son and a friend of his were admitted as music majors to Rice with no AP courses at all. </p>

<p>If your daughter loves piano, then she should focus on it. As compmom notes, schools can sense genuine passion and can also sniff out the resume builders. If she applies to be a piano performance major, then her piano skills as evidenced in her audition will be far more important than the number of AP courses that she has taken. </p>

<p>Getting to your main original question is “which schools should [my daughter] consider?” Given her interests in majoring in piano performance, and possibly French or psychology, she might want to consider McGill. The Schulich School of Music there is very good. Your daughter will not get a better education in French anywhere else in North America. McGill is highly regarded academically overall (usually in the top 20 worldwide putting it above about half of the Ivies). I don’t know much about its psychology dep’t in general, but its neuropsych is among the very best in the world.</p>

4

<p>Hello lastbird, here is my opinion. My D had similar academics to yours (maybe one extra AP but SAT and ACT’s unimpressive). We faced a similar dilemma. The answer to your question, “should she apply?” is that it just depends. If she does really well on the SAT or ACT then she has a much better chance. If she is a piano star, then she has a much better chance. If no one else at her school really wants to go to Northwestern, then she has a better chance, because she will be compared to her classmates. If it is convenient and affordable for her to do applications and auditions at schools which are a reach, then I would say go for it, because you just never know, just keep in mind the reality. Other factors may influence your decision. We had a situation when my daughter was applying, that a prestigious school was acquiring a new famous teacher, who was coming from another university. We figured he would be bringing some students with him, and that the studio would have one maybe two openings at the most. That plus the fact that their audition repertoire was more than what D had time for, plus the added time and expense of another trip pretty much killed any thoughts of applying to that school. (Thus was born the “CLRN8MOM effort to likelihood ratio”). I’m sure plenty of clarinetists applying to that program were undaunted by the high ratio, but for us it was too much.</p>

<p>Of course someone will bring up the side issue of double majoring at Rice or even Northwestern, and how difficult that is. Also, we learned in the process last year how important it is to visit a school to really see what they have to offer. Just because it has a great reputation, doesn’t mean it is going to be the best fit, or that other schools aren’t also equally great. My D was not accepted to her top choice school last year and she was broken-hearted. I never told her that I knew 100% that she would not be happy there.</p>

5

<p>My D wanted to be a music major; but be able major/minor in something else. Many of the places she applied to told her that as long as she met the “minimum” academic requirements (which were more like 3.0 gpa) , if the music school wanted her, she would be accepted. This included places like Rice, Carnegie-Mellon, UMich.</p>

<p>She’s a freshman at Rice now, and her only “academic” subject this semester is French.</p>

<p>If you have the time/money, it can’t hurt to apply.</p>

6

<p>From everything I have seen personally and heard of, they will take the music aspect into consideration when it comes to admissions where academics matter, the admissions people aren’t ignorant as unfortunately many school guidance departments are about what it takes to get into a music program (and Piano is especially difficult, it is one of the ‘golden’ instruments whose level is through the roof), and they know that it is next to impossible for a serious music student playing at a really high level to maintain the academic load non musical high achievers do. </p>

<p>That said, a couple of points others may have made:</p>

<p>-While they take into account someone being musically oriented/impassioned, that doesn’t mean the kid can slough off, either, they need to maintain their grades as high as possible and also take, to use the words of admissions websites, the most rigorous curricula they can. There are allowances made, and I am pretty sure that someone who displays very high level skills musically might be admitted with gpa and such lower then an academic student might be, but it would probably take someone at an incredibly high level to be admitted where they didn’t take particularly challenging courses and did so so…</p>

<p>-It also depends on the school, some schools might be willing to take on a music kid whose stats are not that great, whereas another school would exclude the same student, it all depends on the school’s view of things. It is one of the reasons people encourage students who need to be admitted to the university as well as the music school to push it as far as they can, like with admissions, there is simply no magical formula on getting admitted.So, for example, there is no magical formula that says “non music student, must have at least 3.9 gpa, 1900 SAT, min 5 aps, etc, music student, min 3.6 gpa, 1700 SAT, 3 APs”. </p>

<p>-Plus if the student wants to dual major, I am sure academic stats would be used in determining whether they would be encouraged or allowed to (I have heard different stories about this, whether after you are admitted they decide if you can dual major or the student decides…).</p>

7

<p>Another thing to consider are scholarships. It is quite possible to receive a combination of both music and academic merit scholarships which would make a school much more affordable than if one depends solely on music merit (if the school does not meet full financial need.) For instance, my son received merit funding at Michigan that together came close to full out-of-state tuition - but part of that was an academic scholarship. Although we qualified for significant financial aid - being an out of state student the amount originally offered before the merit scholarships was only a few hundred dollars, in loans.</p>

8

<p>“It also depends on the school, some schools might be willing to take on a music kid whose stats are not that great, whereas another school would exclude the same student, it all depends on the school’s view of things.” - </p>

<p>I think it might be. Which top school would be the first case?</p>

9

<p>Rice certainly. They told my D (in her junior year), stop taking all those AP’s and just practice because if you pass the audition and Shepherd wants you, the regular admissions people barely look at your transcript. Also Carnegie -Mellon only requires you to meet the “minimun” 4.0 if the music school wants you.</p>

<p>Now, Northwestern is the other way. You need to get into both the music school and the University separately. UMich told us that even if you don’t get into the double-degree program as an incoming freshmen, as long as you get good grades for first semester, you can transfer into it.</p>

<p>Other schools like URochester/Eastman or JH/Peabody you need to be admitted to both independently.</p>

10

<p>My daughter got into Oberlin with a slightly lower GPA than the OP. The only AP she ever took was in music (even though her high school offered lots and lots of other AP classes.)</p>

<p>If you have not seen the first ten or so postings at <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html&lt;/a&gt; they may be of interest.</p>

11

<p>Interesting question, flute, you said that you need seperate admits to peabody/JHU and Rochester/Eastman…do you mean someone has to apply to both places, or are you talking about someone getting a dual degree? I have been led to understand that with Peabody and Eastman if you are only going for music, you apply to the conservatory, period, unlike Rice and Indiana as examples where you apply to both no matter what…</p>

12

<p>Rice you have to submit your academic information and write and essay but it really is about the audition. They REALLY bend the standards for music students.</p>

13

<p>Music print, I think the poster was referring to pursuit of a dual degree. At least, that’s the way it works at Michigan – if you want to start out taking both degrees. But as flute mentioned, it’s actually easier to start in the school of music at mich and then add lsa in some cases. In my son’s case he applied and was accepted to both, and as spirit mgr points out, that netted a very attractive merit package…but in that case you need to be working with tippy top stats, and at this point, the sats/acts are an unknown for the original poster, and umich lsa is very attached to “the most rigorous classes available” on the academic side. If all else is equal in terms of playing, that is also true at the school of music, and on average the admit stats are pretty close to lsa or the engineering college at the end of the day (but still more flexible on this than northwestern, for example.)</p>

14

<p>Yes, I was speaking of dual degree as that is what the OP was talking about (I think). For dual degree one must apply separately to both JH/Peabody and URoch/Eastman.</p>

15

<p>Thanks to everyone for their input! As usual with this forum, there is something valuable to take away from each post. (Bassdad, I would be ashamed to show my face here if I had not read and re-read So You Want to Be a Music Major!) </p>

<p>It sounds like D is on track – taking difficult classes but not a crazy number of them, getting good grades. Next is taking the SAT/ACT, and always practicing, of course!</p>

<p>We won’t be swayed, then, by those scattergrams on Naviance showing that the only students who got into Rice had a 4.5 GPA. After all, it is highly unlikely at this HS that the students who applied were going into music. We’ll keep in mind that if she has the desire, we can go visit. And we will apply the “effort to likelihood ratio” if the number of schools gets too large.</p>

<p>This is the kind of advice that is invaluable in this forum. I am sure many HS guidance counselors don’t know that some schools’ standards may be relaxed a bit for dedicated musicians. I am glad, frankly, because I feel my D puts a ton of time into studying – but her school GPA is only part of her whole picture. And back in the day, mostly A’s and an occasional B was a good GPA! But now I’m revealing how old I am…</p>

16

<p>Last-</p>

<p>Don’t feel bad, when I was in HS we had to fight to have the couple of AP classes they offered from being cut…these days, same HS has some ridiculous number:). Straight academic admissions has gotten to be ridiculous IMO, it is amazing what is considered good these days (though on the other hand, there is a back current that the grading is also a lot more generous…though I always take that with a grain of salt, because my parents said the same thing about my days in school decades ago <em>lol</em>). </p>

<p>I understand the concerns, but from what I have been hearing they do make allowances for students (and yeah, I had heard the same thing about Rice with shepherd, that if the kid is musically tip top, they make generous allowances, have heard the same thing with Indiana, Bard and some others to some extent or the other…the admissions people know that to get into the music school takes incredible dedication and few can do that and rack up the AP’s, etc, etc. Put it this way, I have seen top level music students who also were trying the academic hyper track, and usually one or the other gives…either they give up on music and go the academic route, or pull back a bit on the academic whirlwind and concetrate on music (pull back, not slough off)).</p>

17

<p>OP - I am going to make a couple of assumptions here. One, your daughter is good enough to be seriously considering conservatory or conservatory-type programs, and two, your daughter wants more than just a conservatory education. If the 3.89 is an UW average and her piano talent is that good, I think she can think about many schools, including the “tippy-top” ones. If she is looking at dual-degree/dual-major schools she could also consider Tufts/NEC or Harvard/NEC. Oberlin, Michigan, Rice, Northwestern should all be within her reach. My son (not a piano major) looked at USC also. Based on experience, Carnegie-Mellon will not grant dual-degrees (although she could take some non-music classes). Top music talent is a significant plus at virtually all non-Public colleges.</p>

18

<p>DD’s academic stats put her at the 25 percentile of her at Rice per the web stats. But her audition landed her a nice merit award and she did fine there academically. As long as you are a good student and do a decent job of the tests, Rice is forgiving of their musi’s, archi’s, and ahtletes. DD took a couple of IB courses and 1 or 2 AP. Just enough to show she could do the work at Rice. She had an ACT just below the median and grades in the 3.8+ range. BTW she did better on the ACT and that is apparently not unusual. </p>

<p>She had similar results at UCLA. There when you are accepted into the music program you just have to meet the minimum for UCLA admission. </p>

<p>GC’s have no clue for audition based admissions. Naviance is no good either. it is much harder to do the admisison process.</p>

19

<p>I would add to the list above: Bard (all conservatory students there do a 5 year double degree, BA/BM, and non-conservatory students have a lot of access to conservatory resources and teachers). There are posters here who know a lot about this program.</p>

<p>Perhaps also look at Sarah Lawrence or Bennington- good with music and lots of freedom to choose classes. Just as an alternative path.</p>

<p>Harvard/NEC program is extremely tough to get into. Getting into both institutions does not mean admission to the dual degree program, and few are admitted. Not knowing your daughter, I would not say whether to try it or not, but just a caution. Tufts/NEC is stressful w/lots of travel, but some love it.</p>

20

<p>I second the comment about school guidance counselors, they don’t have a clue about music school admits, most of them live in the la la land of where a student in high school should focus on the academics, have music as ‘a nice EC’, and then if they want, they can ‘get serious’ about music in college. That may have been true a generation ago but isn’t today, but you will still get from the GC’s that everything has to be about the academics (for a student not planning to go into music, I would obviously agree). It is already tough to go to a school in the first place, spend the time in school, have the homework and practice enough, especially in many cases you are up against music students who have often done nothing but music…add to that hyper academics, it is going to be a stretch to achieve the level needed to get into good music schools.</p>