More reality/upset son

Parents Forum
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<p>We met with a college counselor last night to talk about potential school options.</p>

<p>My son went to the meeting very excited but left very upset. He said he didn't want to go back.</p>

<p>She told him that his 3.2 GPA is a red flag to admissions officers since his scores are so high. She also told him that the fact that he is not taking any AP classes (which he can't get into since one needs an A to do so) is another red flag. (He can't do anything about that unfortunately...although he can start to work on his grades at least.) I thought she was being realistic, but my son felt attacked and felt that she was telling him he had no hope of going to any of the schools he wants to go to (big publics). She suggested a couple of schools he had no interest in. When we asked about a couple of other schools that the GC said could possibly be safeties...she didn't know and said she would get back to us after she looked up the admissions data for OOS kids (these are all public schools).</p>

<p>I don't know what to do. He doesn't want to go back to see her...I think perhaps she could help us help admissions committees understand why his GPA is so much lower than his SATs. My son says he doesn't want to pay so much money to someone who is "going to be so negative and tell me I can't get in anywhere".</p>

<p>My son is incredibly bright but made some mistakes...not doing the work in school that he was capable of doing. (I have to admit that I was the same way but quickly turned around in college, ended up in an honors program, and went to a top grad school. I know it takes time to mature sometimes.) He is committed (or was, at least, before we went last night) to actually working this quarter...but now I'm afraid he has lost all hope.</p>

<p>Is this reaction normal? Do we need a different counselor that is more positive? </p>

<p>Comments appreciated. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Maybe a counselor with a different style would help, but if it’s the facts that are bothering your DS, there’s probably no counselor he’ll like. Hopefully he’ll think it through and decide he can use the help to maximize his chances at realistic schools.</p>

<p>Though I do wonder how you expect a counselor to help convey the disparity between grades and scores. Colleges see this all the time and unless there’s some very unusual reason here, I’m not sure what any counselor can do. </p>

<p>What she can do, if she’s good, is to help position your son as strongly as possible through his application and help choose realistic schools that meets his wants and needs.</p>

<p>What is it with these counselors? Probably the best know private counselor out there is one of the most abrasive people I’ve ever come across, and that’s saying a lot!</p>

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<p>Get a second opinion from his high school guidance counselor, but you may end up thankful that she gave you a realistic view of his chances. Now you have to get busy and find some realistic choices, which could take some work. Maybe your son could help find some schools, more in line with his stats, and save you some money on college counselors.</p>

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<p>Give it a few days to sink in. Then gently speak with your son about the issues. They are not going to go away between now and a new college counselor. Let him deal with the shock and disappointment of reality. Then talk about a plan. At least the counselor was being honest. Especially given the price.</p>

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<p>If the counselor is being realistic, so be it. Sometimes reality is a bitter pill, especially at 16 or 17. Also, I am not sure that big universities (outside of the public “Ivys”) have such complex admissions reviews that you need a college counselor to gain admission to them. I suspect that you can do the research yourself to identify safeties, matches and reaches then work the process. </p>

<p>If he wants a big public first and foremost, and I have that child as well, would you consider schools like Alabama, University of South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, etc. There are a huge range of big football schools that offer great programs within them – that aren’t all so competitive to get in. (I am a southerner, so I listed the southern schools that I am familiar with, I am sure schools like these can be found in every region.)</p>

<p>Didn’t your son visit Indiana? I would think that might be a possibility – but he needs to apply early as this year they ran out of space, I understand.</p>

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<p>Depends on which big publics your son was considering. Michigan, UVA, UCLA, UNC???</p>

<p>With a 3.2 it would VERY difficult. What were the public “safeties” that your son was also considering? </p>

<p>What was his SAT score? How high is high?</p>

<p>How many AP courses does your high school offer? (GC will need to include a school profile that indicates whether he took a most rigorous/rigorous schedule) Is he taking any honors courses? Foreign language? Sciences? His ECs?</p>

<p>Any summer research or programs? His passions?</p>

<p>Is whose reaction normal, your son’s or the counselor’s?</p>

<p>Your son just met with an outside of school and home “authority” figure who is paid highly to be accurate and meet his needs and wants and didn’t like what he heard. But more than likely he already knew. It’s the counselor’s job to listen to him and you and figure out with you jointly what would be the best strategy going forward.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Does he have any athletic hooks? I have a friend with a son in this situation but he has an athletic hook and so they are not worried about the descrepancy between high SAT and gpa.</p>

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<p>Has he been on any college visits? You might want to take him to visit some smaller schools, even if not the ones the counselor suggested. He may have an ideal of a large public that does not fit with the reality of what he would really like. </p>

<p>My daughter went through a similar period when her high school counselor told her she would not be able to go to a four year college right away, she was going to have to go to community college first. It hurt her feelings, angered her, took her a while to get over, then she set out to prove the counselor wrong…and she did. She had the same visceral reaction. I think your son will find the same strength from what is probably his first adversity and find a great school and learn a valuable life lesson in the meantime…keeping your opportunities open.</p>

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<p>I suppose she is a paid professional so she knows what she is talking about, but I agree with lastminutemom196 that there should be plenty of public schools where he has a great chance of getting in.</p>

<p>At a big public school, it is unlikely that a discrepancy in GPA and SAT will raise a “red flag” for admissions counselors, because, at many of them, the admissions process is very formula driven. Generally you can look up the threshold scores required for admission . (For example, the University of South Carolina states “applicants who have earned a cumulative average of B on the defined preparatory courses listed above and who score 1150 on the SAT or 25 on the ACT will likely be competitive for admission” although they qualify it by saying that “the overall strength of the applicant pool strongly impacts your chance of admission.”)</p>

<p>In fact I have seen minimum admissions requirements at some public schools where GPA and SAT are paired, so if you have a lower GPA you need a higher SAT (exactly your son’s situation).</p>

<p>Often students at public schools have a better chance of admissions if the student applies earlier.</p>

<p>(Qualifier – Obviously the most selective publics are not a likely admit for a kid with a 3.2 GPA, such as California system, Univ of Wisconsin-Madison, University of Michigan, UVa, probably UConn, Florida and Florida Sate, Univ of Texas-Austin)</p>

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<p>My daughter has a 4.8 GPA, and she also had a very disappointing experience with her counselor. Her career goal is to work in the business end of the healthcare industry. He told her that her grades were not high enough, and she should consider a nursing major at a lower tier school. What an idoit! I called his supervisor to complain, and ask that my daughter see a different advisor. </p>

<p>However, I think your counselor is giving you good advice about looking at other schools, and I don’t see the shame in this. With the downturn in the economy, I think that there will be many more students applying to the big public schools instead of private colleges. We lost so much in our 401K, and we cannot afford the expense of private education if we want to retire before we are in our 70s.</p>

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<p>Thank you so much for these supportive messages. I’m off to work and will reply again once I get there…but to be brief:</p>

<p>SATs - 1450/2080 (composite…took twice…more like 1350/1930 single sitting) </p>

<p>4 year varsity football (but not playing in college)
4 years student government (elected)
part-time job since age 16 (8 hours/week during football, 15 in off season, more of course during summer)
leader in school…asked to do some other things we can put on the resume…some awards </p>

<p>(Thinking ECs don’t matter for big schools)</p>

<p>Has taken five honors classes, but none this year…didn’t qualify…is in regular physics and regular calc as a junior.</p>

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<p>Ready to Roll</p>

<p>What is the geographic area you are consider or is he wide open to all options?</p>

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<p>“My son is incredibly bright but made some mistakes…not doing the work in school that he was capable of doing.”</p>

<p>This is not a “mistake.” Rather it sounds like a pattern of behavior and lack of interest. More and more adcoms are trying to look past the SAT scores and put more weight on grades, accomplishments and determination/focus/passion.</p>

<p>Sooner or later your son may wake up and find that learning and success in school are important. If not, he will end up at schools where his level of performance is close to the norm.</p>

<p>“I don’t know what to do.” The ball is in your son’s court. Both you and your son will lose if you try to play the game for him. Let some time pass and then don’t make suggestions. Ask your son what he wants to do.</p>

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<p>Would he be amenable to taking an AP course through EPGY? Perhaps that might be a way to get around the school’s AP rules. Or perhaps he could take a college class this summer? Low grades and high scores aren’t uncommon, but it’s hard to get colleges to take a risk with you. Low grades combined with being shut out of AP and honors classes is evewn more problematic.</p>

<p>There are colleges out there, he might go to a big public and qualify for an honors program if he does well freshman year. Or he might consider doing really well freshman year in college and seeing if he can transfer up then - when high school grades are more likely to be forgiven. Unfortunately he’s made his bed. He’s closed some doors - at least in the immediate future.</p>

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<p>I had a similar situation but more extreme. Probably slightly lower GPA (I’m in my fourth year of college and really don’t remember exactly), 1500 SAT. It definitely hurt me with some schools, but I got merit aid at UConn, Northeastern and Mt. Holyoke. My advice is to write very good essays and keep the GPA going up. I do realize admissions are more competitive now, but all hope is not lost. Some schools do look very carefully at trends and some schools (Northeastern is a good example) want to raise the average SAT score of admits in the hopes of raising their US News ranking. I think large publics are also more likely to have cut-offs or combined SAT/GPA calculations then spend long periods of time contemplating the implications of parts of the application, right?</p>

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<p>I’m sorry your son was disappointed in his meeting with the professional college counselor. As some other posters have noted, her style may or may not have been tactful, but the facts as she put them to him seem to be pretty valid to me based on my own experience, anecdotal reports I’ve heard locally this year, and several years of reading CC. I have to say that I have been following some of your threads but not all, and my initial impression when you described your son’s credentials was that they were not numerically very strong in terms of what he might have been hoping for in terms of admission–which is not say that other factors don’t come into play sometimes. In objective terms the SAT score of 2080 is high, and high relative to the 3.2 GPA, but it isn’t high by “top” school standards at all, and the 3.2 works out to less than a B+, which again is not bad but isn’t really good either by “good student” standards. And that is what a solid flagship public is using in admissions decisions for out of state students.</p>

<p>Hurt pride is not a good basis for rejecting advice if that advice is sound to start with. finding someone who will tell you something yor and he like better won’t change the reality of what he has to offer or what schools are looking for. So my suggestion would be first for you and your son to look at the schools that the private counselor mentioned and see what about them might appeal to you in terms of academic strength and atmosphere on campus. It sounds from your initial post in this thread as if you and/or your son have also already spoken to the school GC. Put all the information fromthe two sosurces together and see where the two advisors overlap if at all. </p>

<p>Also consider doing your own research on the test and GPA numbers from the schools’ Web sites; keep in mind that class rank counts too but that since many high schools no longer rank it may not provide as full a picture as the actual numbers do. Take another look at the numbers for the schools he originally thought he might like and remember that unless one is solidly in the middle or above you are not a likely admit because lower scores and grades may be accompanied by special qualifications that make a given applicatn attractive inother ways. Remind yourself and your son that public schools need to give preference to in-state students and often get the cream of the crop because of cost factors. </p>

<p>I also wonder about the stated desire to focus on big public schools. Depending on family finances, a similar experience might be obtained at a large private school or a middle-sized not-flagship public. I think more research is in erder, and maybe some visits to schools of types not previously considered. </p>

<p>As far as this semester goes, obviously it is better for grades to go up than down and maturity and common sense should tell him that. Bu by the same token one semester of As or a minuses is not going to turn him into a star–it won’t change the overall package that much, though of course it would be nice and show something. At this point I don’t think the key is raising short-term one-shot grades so much as finding a fit for the existing profile. Take all the reliable professional advice that is offered; don’t look at what “everyone else” is doing or hoping for because you don’t know what their academic or hook or financial realities are. There is nothing wrong with a having couple of reaches; the important thing is to figure out what the real admissions standards for a kid from his location and background are and thus what the matches and safeties are. Keep looking, keep visiting, be realistic, and get applications early to any rolling admissions schools he might be considering.</p>

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<p>Just to put in a word of encouragement–there are some big public schools that have admissions formulae that give a break to young men like your son–or actually, students with noticeably worse high-school GPAs. I seem to recall that the University of Maryland (which is very good) is one–might be off-base on this, though. You should take a look at the gender ratios at the universities. Being a male applicant will be an advantage at many. The football, student government, and part-time job EC’s will all help, from the vantage of the admissions officers–public universities are not exclusively numbers-driven in admissions.</p>

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<p>What I have gathered from some of our friends with private counselors, they tend to set your expectations low, then it’s easier for them to do their jobs (not all, but a few I have heard). That being said, reality also hurts. </p>

<p>It would be easy for your son to give up because of what one cunselor said, it would just be another excuse for him. My message to him would be, “Life is long, don’t let past msitakes prevent you from moving ahead. So you don’t get into the best college now, but there is still graduate school…You could give up now, or you could buckle down to try to bring your grades up, work hard in college then maybe do a transfer later.”</p>

<p>My D2 is a freshman in high school. In her science class, one could do 3 extra labs (a lot of work) and get an Honors designation. A few kids just decided not to do it, even though they have done very well on the first one, because it’s too much work. My D2 said most of them didn’t even tell their parents about it. Everything has a domino effect. Many 14 year olds do not understand choices they make today could have a long term effect on them later on. I know we have all talked about helicopter parents, but sometimes one just can’t leave it to kids -“I don’t feel like doing it.”</p>

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<p>when i saw the title of your thread i feared it was another thread about a student disappointed in his/her application outcome – there are so many such threads – kids who simply didn’t get into the schools they’d hoped for.</p>

<p>so the good news really is that you and your son have had a chance for this “wake up call” before he has even made up his application list. as upset and disappointed as he may be now, it is much better for him to feel that way now and to have time to deal with it, than to feel that way when the “thin envelopes” arrive.</p>

<p>due to the economy, admissions at state schools is getting far more competitive than before. top state schools this year were flooded with applications and had their pick of who to admit. the stats reflecting this are not yet out there, but hopefully they will start to come out by the summer and the fall – and they will probably help to reinforce what this counselor discussed. right now if you are looking at admissions stats, you are probably looking at how things were a year or two ago – realize things changed a lot this year. a lot of kids who expected to get accepted at a given state school, who probably would have been accepted last year, got the thin envelope this year.</p>

<p>doe you son know current seniors? what is he hearing from them about how difficult admissions were this year at the types of colleges he is considering – this would probably have an enormous impact on him, making the realities of the process much more real for him.</p>

<p>remember this is a process. your son and you gather information over time to help him make an informed decision that hopefully will not result in you starting a thread a year from now about how disappointed he was with the results. he needs some time to go thru that process. you can’t expect him to be happy about and absorb what the counselor said all at once. hard stats as they become available for this current admissions year, stories about what happened to “bright” kids he knows, advice from his guidance counselor and respected teachers, may all help him come to terms with the cruel realities of the admissions world in time for him to develop a well thought out application list that includes safeties where he would be happy.</p>

<p>good luck.</p>

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<p>More info is always better!!</p>

<p>So a 1450, 4 years varsity football and 4 years student body activities with a part-time job.</p>

<p>Next question, why isn’t he considering playing in college?</p>

<p>And I am not suggesting D1 ball, but rather D3 for a LAC that likes its football but is in need of good ball players. Then his options of schools opens much wider. Granted there are no “athletic” scholarships for D3 ball but there are “leadership”, “community service”, “academic merit/SAT score based” scholarships that would be available especially if football was part of the package.</p>

<p>His past academic performances (GPA, course selection), his SATs, athletics, employment history are all taken into consideration at schools that evaluate with a more holistic approach rather than just numbers. And that would be at most of the LACs but ones that are within his reach.</p>

<p>So rather than focusing solely on big publics, I would suggest LACs on that list as well. If finances are an issue then that also has to be taken into consideration.</p>

<p>At the same time, that 3.2 is no “mistake” it is a representation of what his priorities are and have been with regards to academics. It isn’t just a number but rather an indicator of what regardless of ability (1450) he is willing to invest into HIS education.</p>

<p>And that is what needs to be discussed. How highly does he value an education? What is he willing to do to get a college degree? Where does he feel he could accomplish that best at? Does he need to participate in a sport for time management purposes or does he feel it is a time drainer? Does he need the cohesion of a team sport? </p>

<p>What does he currently envision his college years to be and can you work from there?</p>

<p>His reality is what he made it to be based on previous actions AND his future will be based on the realization of knowing he is in CHARGE of his future. Obviously the ability is there and combined with a new sense of purpose based on his knewly discovered “reality” he can take very assertive and positive steps based on what he wants. He doesn’t have to settle.</p>

<p>He can take what he has learned, good and bad, and look at schools when he can truly grow into the person he wants to become. His job, yours and the counselor is took discover those schools that will foster and support who he wants to be and not just academically. </p>

<p>Kat</p>