Most Elite Colleges & Universities for Academics--2020 Fiske Guide To Colleges

I’m laughing as I type this, because this statement is so true.

It’s like arguing whether The Color Purple is better than Saving Private Ryan; whether Dizzy was better than Miles; whether Rembrandt was better than Michelangelo; whether apples are better than salmon.

Greatness is greatness. All the schools listed are great. Any attempt to create separation is an exercise in idolatry that speaks more about the list maker than the items on the list. I say that as a rabid creator and consumer of lists.

And I love following the debate.

:smile:

I am just trying to provide a resource for others who may find this information helpful & to generate thoughtful discussion.

I, for one, greatly appreciate your effort. The amount of time you have spent organizing, collating, and typing this information was not small feat.

If anything, I think the debate that has developed indicates others are very interested in the information you have presented and the format in which you presented it. The format is very useful as a guide to absorb the Fiske guide itself.

Again, I thank you!

To clarify the above. To make my intent clear, I should have said: "Any attempt by college guides, like Fiske and its peers, to create separation is an exercise in idolatry that speaks more about the list maker (Fiske and its peers) than the items on the list. I say that as a rabid creator and consumer of lists.

Thank you, @Publisher for breaking down this info from Fiske’s guide. My apologies for any unintended slight.

Information is a resource which is utilized in different ways depending upon the person and the project and, of course, how that information is interpreted by one.

I find it helpful to remember that the same stock is both bought & sold on the same day.

I wish Fiske published in an ebook format. I’m curious to flip through, but not curious enough to order/pick up from the library or buy it :slight_smile:

This is a ton of fun to read and high props to @Publisher for typing all this out. It’s especially good to hear the names of schools that aren’t typically mentioned here. However, one could persuasively argue that the quality of the students is as much a part of academics as the quality of the classes–you can’t underestimate how much we learn from our peers. So for example, St. Mary’s College of Maryland probably isn’t on par with CMU regardless of how many professors are Fulbright Scholars (although I believe the music program is top notch there).

Still theses lists can serve to point students toward strong programs they may have otherwise overlooked, which is how it should be used, IMO, and not to compare colleges head-to-head.

Thanks for taking the time to create these lists!

But, for this purpose, how does it matter?

  • Based on the worst students?
  • Based on the best students?
  • Based on the median student?
  • Does range matter?
  • Do variations by major matter?
  • Does college size matter?

Though these choices overlap, I’d think range might matter the most, in particular as considered by the 25th percentile. That is, high 25th percentile student characteristics (and therefore often narrow ranges) would seem to confer a substantially engaging overall academic experience, provided, of course, that these student characteristics align with meaningful intellectual attributes.

@circuitrider Yes. Agrees with me, too! Always a fan of Wesleyan and well Amherst goes without saying :slight_smile:

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I like the Fiske guide a lot and it’s a good tool among others for narrowing lists down (I used it with my middle kid to have her prioritize which of about 25 schools I had identified as good candidates to go and actually visit). It does have its limitations though. A big one for those of us on our side of the country is it nearly leaves out the Cal State system entirely (there are a few paragraphs about it on one page but none of the schools has its own entry, at least in the 2014 version). Would be helpful to at least have some of the best ones like Cal Poly SLO, San Diego State, and San Jose State in there so kids could see how they are described in a similar format.

Using primarily the 25th percentile seems more like basing your judgement of a college on the students at its low end – i.e. closer to the minimum needed to be admitted. Put it another way, it is equivalent to the common (elitist) notion on these forums that more selective colleges will always provide a better academic experience.

In terms of narrow range, what if the range is narrow because of a high 25th percentile and a low 75th percentile? How would that compare to a school with similar averages, but lower 25th percentile and higher 75th percentile?

I’d been thinking more of a college such as Reed (see “Best Classroom Experience,” below), which, though not extremely selective by conventional standards, seems to enroll students that manifest consistent intellectual engagement (i.e., they land in a “narrow” range by this standard).

https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings?rankings=best-classroom-experience

I wanted to point out that someone raised the question up thread several entries ago about whether two women’s schools–Bryn Mawr and Barnard–would fare as well if they weren’t associated with respectively Haverford and Columbia U. Leaving aside why that person thought that women’s colleges might need to borrow prestige from anyone, much less their male-heavy co-colleges–you know why choose only them?–it’s somewhat understandable to assume that a massive institution the size of Columbia might influence the smaller institution like Barnard, especially when they’re located across the street from each other and share many facilities. But it’s surprising to me that the assumption was that Haverford would have lent Bryn Mawr intellectual and academic prestige.

Despite Columbia’s oversized presence, it’s possible to argue that Barnard, as a premier women’s institution in the City of New York would be a major powerhouse on its own without Columbia. It’s after all a Premier Educational Institution in the City of New York, for goodness’ sake. The faculty are top notch, faculty would metaphorically kill to live in New York City in such a pretty area of the town so attracting faculty is hardly an issue, and they have unique departments there that Columbia is very happy to make use of. In other words, the flow of traffic from one campus to the other is not all one way, from Barnard to Columbia. If a Columbia College student wants to major in theater, they would spend a lot of time on Barnard campus, for example. Then there’s the culture of the two schools. Women at Barnard are quite happy to be at Barnard!

Bryn Mawr is a storied college in and of itself, apart from Haverford but also enjoys a deep historical relationship with Haverford. BMC offered women some of the first Ph.Ds, for example, has produced women leaders in virtually every field, including a Nobel Prize winner, and it still has a graduate program that male students attend.

BMC and Haverford work more as co-campuses, in that each offers some unique programs that the student population of the other college make use of. H for example offers the studio arts department which is quite rigorous and BMC offers geology and other facilities and departments that Haverford relies on. Haverford has notoriously less money than BMC and it culturally is less open to fundraising. The colleges are only 1 mile apart with buses running constantly. What is most important that sets BMC apart is the educational environment at BMC which is somewhat shared by Haverford. I think it’s this latter quality that makes it unique and may have secured its 5 pens. The course load is rigorous, that goes without saying, but it’s the method of teaching and consequently the students it attracts that sets it apart.

The students who attend BMC tend to be ones that value learning over grades. It’s worth saying another way. For many students though they don’t discount grades, the primary importance on that campus places the act of learning over grades. This is codified on campus somewhat, as a culture. And it’s sufficiently prominent that it’s mentioned as a unique feature of BMC elsewhere on the internet–Niche for example. As a point of comparison, to understand this difference, recently a student at an Ivy League school laughed when I explained this learning environment to her. She said that at her school the students were mostly interested in figuring out what they had to do to get the grade they needed. BMC’s system she said would require a unique set of students because their system “wouldn’t work” at her school. I think that’s true and finding a pool of students seeking that environment is something possible at a smaller school.

To my mind it’s this learning culture, in addition to its rigorous academics, that possibly earned BMC the 5 pens rank.

The University of Vermont received ratings of:

3.5 Pens for Academics

5 Telephones for Social Life

5 Stars for Quality of Life

With a well established Honors College, it is reasonable to assume that the academic experience for honors students at the Univ. of Vermont would merit a rating of at least 4 Pens.

Quote:

“For an out-of-stater sizing up public universities, there could hardly be a more appealing place than UVM. The size is manageable, Burlington is a fabulous college town, and Lake Champlain and the Green Mountains are on your doorstep. UVM feels like a private university, but, alas, it is also priced like one. Attracts a mix of party animals and serious types.”

The University of Illinois is among the 36 colleges & universities which was awarded Fiske’s highest rating–5 Pens–for academics.

Long recognized as a leading school for engineering and accounting, the University of Illinois is also among the top 20 undergraduate institutions (#20) for number of graduates admitted to Harvard Business School’s MBA program.

Illinois’ eleven admits to HBS’ Class of 2020 exceeds that of many outstanding schools including UCal-Berkeley, Michigan, UNC-Chapel Hill, Vanderbilt, Boston College, Georgia Tech, McGill, University of Chicago, Purdue, Emory, Rice, Tufts, Georgia, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Ohio State, Penn State, Minnesota, UC-Santa Barbara, Univ. of Florida, Oklahoma & approximately 100 other undergraduate institutions.

I know each school gets assigned a number of pens but many of the schools seem to be getting their pens because of a specific major or niche where they excel. So, readers really need to read the descriptions. If our kids wanted business degree or an engineering degree, we would have pushed harder to have them consider UIUC. 5 pens indeed for those majors but certainly not five pens for an undecided liberal arts major. I’m sure I’m stating the obvious but five pens at UIUC is not the same as five pens at Stanford.

The University of Illinois is a public institution with a different mission & focus than that of a super elite private school such as Stanford University.

Both universities are outstanding.

I started a new thread titled:

Harvard MBA Class of 2020 Admits By Undergraduate School which illustrates one aspect of the University of Illinois with respect to elite MBA school admission.