Most Prestigious Schools Internationally

College Search & Selection
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<p>Pizzagirl, I wholeheartedly agree. Even if one works in an international setting, the perception of one’s school is going to vary by region and audience. In the end, however, one’s knowledge and skills is going to win out. So, if someone in a far off region hasn’t heard of your school, impress them with your competence and this will reflect on your school.</p>

<p>GamBino, the Chinese are most likely to hear about schools that have had some visibility via its graduates or schools that have had longstanding involvement in China. LACs simply don’t have that sort of visibility or involvement. (Though perhaps some people in Taiwan might know about Wellesley since Madame Chiang Kai-shek went there.) It’s also not surprising that LACs aren’t know due to a cultural bias in favor of perceived practicality and the more technical subjects not usually taught in LACs. With the increase of a middle-class in China, once the prestige of certain US LACs becomes better known, I expect some Chinese will obsess over those brand-names as ardently as they do in the US. (Just as in the book, Harvard Girl, which become a phenomenon in China. <a href=“https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Harvard_Girl[/url]”>https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Harvard_Girl&lt;/a&gt;)</p>

<p>There are some efforts to increase awareness of liberal arts education in China and other Asian countries.
[Yongfang</a> Chen ’10 co-authors Chinese book on the liberal arts - The Bowdoin Orient](<a href=“http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/article.php?date=2009-05-01&section=1&id=5]Yongfang”>http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/article.php?date=2009-05-01&section=1&id=5)
[Yale</a>, Singapore plan new liberal arts college | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/sep/13/yale-singapore-to-collaborate-on-new-liberal-arts/]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/sep/13/yale-singapore-to-collaborate-on-new-liberal-arts/)
[Business</a> world embraces liberal arts in Korea](<a href=“AsiaOne, Asia's Leading News Portal, Get Latest News at AsiaOne”>AsiaOne, Asia's Leading News Portal, Get Latest News at AsiaOne)
Also see the first couple of paragraphs in this article which suggests there even is interest in Greek and Roman Classics among some Chinese:
[China?s</a> Strange Interest In Leo Strauss And Other Western Philosophers. | The New Republic](<a href=“http://www.tnr.com/article/magazine/79747/reading-leo-strauss-in-beijing-china-marx]China?s”>China’s strange interest in Leo Strauss and other Western philosophers. | The New Republic)</p>

22

<p>I was in a train station in Italy with my wife and 3 yr old kid who both wore a Cal shirt, then someone from a distant shouted: GO BEARS! Made my wife smiling the whole day.</p>

23

<p>Still, being a student in China, I cannot help but notice how LACs really have a lack of popularity in China. Most of the students only know colleges which have college fairs in the country often. USC is one such school. LACs will continue to remain under the radar unless they begin sending representatives to China to expand their student diversity.</p>

<p>Harvard was already known before that book was released, that only increased popularity.</p>

24

<p>“LACs will continue to remain under the radar unless they begin sending representatives to China to expand their student diversity.”</p>

<p>Oh well. Then they will. I think American LACs have enough to do that this needn’t be the highest of priorities.</p>

25

<p>Student diversity? At LAC’s? </p>

<p>[Best</a> Colleges: Racial Diversity: National Liberal Arts Colleges](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/liberal-arts-campus-ethnic-diversity]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/liberal-arts-campus-ethnic-diversity)</p>

<p>You might want to reconsider that.</p>

<p>Just as a comparison, this is the list for non-LACs.</p>

<p>[Best</a> Colleges: Racial Diversity: National Universities](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-campus-ethnic-diversity]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-campus-ethnic-diversity)</p>

<p>“How do we figure out which schools are more diverse than others? Using 2008-2009 academic year data, our campus ethnic diversity mathematical formula produces a diversity index that ranges from 0.0 (entire enrollment is of one racial/ethnic group) to 1.0 (school’s enrollment is equally distributed over all racial/ethnic groups). The closer a school’s index number is to 1.0, the highest possible value, the more diverse its student population is. Using this approach, we concluded that, for the second year in a row, the most diverse school in the country is Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey–Newark, with a diversity index of 0.74. That means that nearly 3 out of every 4 people you run into there will be from a different ethnic group.”</p>

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<p>Sample of one: My (white) D was just admitted to a top-ranked LAC, and seriously, half the students on the Facebook group for that LAC’s class of 2015 are of Asian descent. (Hey, good for them!)</p>

<p>But there’s also a chicken-or-the-egg thing going on. When those of Asian descent (whether US or international) flock strongly to a handful of top universities and overlook many LAC’s because a) they haven’t heard of them and / or b) they aren’t in locales that are familiar to them (such as the midwestern LAC’s - the Grinnells, Kenyons, Carletons, etc.), then it’s hardly fair to tag those places as “not being diverse.” Are they not diverse because they aren’t welcoming, or because many Asian students will overlook / not consider those places? You can only outreach so much – if Asian students rely on “the old folks back home only know HYPSM,” that’s not a midwestern LAC’s fault.</p>

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<p>“Are they not diverse because they aren’t welcoming, or because many Asian students will overlook / not consider those places? You can only outreach so much – if Asian students rely on “the old folks back home only know HYPSM,” that’s not a midwestern LAC’s fault.”</p>

<p>The midwestern LACs not only lack Asians (which may partly be explained by Asians’ lack of interest in them), those LACs also lack Blacks and Hispanics. Here are some stats comparing Carleton, Kenyon, Stanford, and Yale. There are huge difference between the proportions of Blacks & Hispanic at the first two vs the last two.</p>

<p>[College</a> Search - Carleton College - Carleton - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)
[College</a> Search - Kenyon College - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)
[College</a> Search - Stanford University - The Farm - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)
[College</a> Search - Yale University - At a Glance](<a href=“College Search - BigFuture | College Board”>College Search - BigFuture | College Board)</p>

28

<p>Internationally, the following 7 universities are more constantly recognized and admired than any other US university. Those seven are:</p>

<p>Harvard University</p>

<p>Columbia University (mainly because of its location and excellent professional programs)
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (premier technology university)
Princeton University
Stanford University
University of California-Berkeley
Yale University</p>

<p>Beyond those 7, things get spotty.</p>

29

<p>“Harvard was already known before that book was released, that only increased popularity.”</p>

<p>True. My point was that the prestige obsession is a relatively recent phenomenon. I would venture to say that a similar prestige obsession will occur with regard to certain top LACs.
While the whole notion of liberal arts education isn’t widely accepted in much of Asia, once it becomes better known, some Asians will chase after the brand-names of top LACs simply because they are seen as prestigious—just like in America.</p>

<p>“LACs will continue to remain under the radar unless they begin sending representatives to China to expand their student diversity.”</p>

<p>True enough. They simply don’t have the numbers of graduates or longstanding involvement in China that certain top research universities have. Except for a handful of top LACs, it’s also the case in the US that many excellent LACs are not well-known outside their region. </p>

<p>A few years ago, however, my daughter had a summer scholarship to a top prep school. Her roommates were from China, Thailand, and Turkey. Many of the other students in her dorm were Asian. During the regular school year, many of these students attended international schools in their home countries. They were well aware, not only of the top American prep schools, but also aware of the top LACs. Many of them planned to apply to Bowdoin, Amherst, and others. China is just lagging behind in this. </p>

<p>“Using this approach, we concluded that, for the second year in a row, the most diverse school in the country is Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey–Newark, with a diversity index of 0.74. That means that nearly 3 out of every 4 people you run into there will be from a different ethnic group."</p>

<p>Yet, I don’t think that most people would consider Rutgers as a well-known or prestigious in university in Asia, or, in most other parts of the world, for that matter. Heck, it’s not even well-known or prestigious in most of the US, even though it is one of the oldest American universities and is excellent in many disciplines. Most of its diversity consists of American students. </p>

<p>“But there’s also a chicken-or-the-egg thing going on. When those of Asian descent (whether US or international) flock strongly to a handful of top universities and overlook many LAC’s because a) they haven’t heard of them and / or b) they aren’t in locales that are familiar to them … then it’s hardly fair to tag those places as “not being diverse.” </p>

<p>It’s more than just not having heard of LACs. It’s also a matter of a cultural bias toward “practical” and technical education. A student returning to China knows what he hopes to do with an engineering or business degree, but he would have a more difficult time explaining the value of a liberal arts degree or what he planned to do with it. </p>

<p>Although international students might flock to certain universities where other students from their countries have attended before them, seeking out “diversity” is not necessarily a factor for either the host university or the student. The student is seeking a university to which he can be admitted, that he can afford, that offers the majors he wishes to study, etc. From the university’s perspective, diversity might be desirable, but in many cases, it’s a matter of admitting a full-pay international student. </p>

<p>During much of the last year, I lived in a university town whose large public university had a large numbers of international students. Even though that university has extensive international programs, it’s not usually considered one of the universities that is among the best known or most prestigious in Asia. Yet, it was able to attract a large number of Asian students. While having large numbers of other students from their region probably helped smooth the way for newly arriving students, they were coming primarily for the sole practical purpose of obtaining an American degree. While many of them were graduate students, a very large percentage of them were undergrads. Diversity had relatively little to do with their reasons for coming to the university.</p>

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</p>

<p>No doubt. It brings up the case as to what is the “right” minority population to have. Most schools still pull disproportionately from their own geographic regions; there just aren’t as many Asians in MN and OH as there are in CA, for example. Nonetheless, there’s still some chicken-and-the-egg. Frankly, I’m surprised that not more Asian CC’ers who are looking for excellent schools consider the midwestern LAC’s where they are more a “novelty” (for lack of a better term) compared to the schools that most of them are flocking to. I believe in darting left when everyone darts right and vice versa. </p>

<p>But if the Asian international student won’t consider (say) Carleton and Kenyon because no one in China or Japan or Korea has heard of those schools, there is only so much C and K can do about it.</p>

31

<p>Alexandre’s list looks about right. I would add Cornell or take off Princeton & Columbia though.</p>

32

<p>I mostly agree with Alexandre’s list except that, in my personal experience, Columbia does not get mentioned as often as HYPSM + Berkeley do. So, my list would go something like this:</p>

<p>Harvard</p>

<p>(Oxford)
Stanford, Yale, Cambridge, Berkeley</p>

<p>Columbia, Cornell, Michigan, NYU, UCLA
Chicago, Texas-Austin, Duke, Virginia, Penn/Wharton</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>I live in Jamaica and the same holds true here; even the “not-so educated ones”. Apart from that, Princeton comes in a close second. MIT is top for all things tech-related. Stanford is also pretty popular along with Yale and Berkely.</p>

<p>However when you start to get into the top high schools and businesses the list broadens to include many more (basically, almost all the top universities). It still seems that the LACs aren’t that well known but their popularity is increasing thanks to college advising organizations.</p>

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<p>

To be perfectly honest, the “Bears” Berkeley mascot is pretty obscure. I’m not saying people don’t know about Berkeley, but you could walk around SoCal and ask people what Berkeley’s mascot was and many people (high school students included) wouldn’t know the answer. Berkeley’s athletic marketing revolves almost completely around that cursive Cal logo. -.-</p>

<p>UCLA’s “Bruins” or USC’s “Trojans” are far better marketed (esp. Trojans).</p>

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<p>"Harvard</p>

<p>(Oxford)
Stanford, Yale, Cambridge, Berkeley"</p>

<p>From what I’ve seen in Asia and Europe:
Harvard
Stanford
MIT, Yale, Cambridge, Oxford, Berkeley
Columbia, Cornell, UChicago, UMich, UPenn, Princeton</p>

<p>This is for the universities overall (not for undergrad).</p>

36

<p>How many different ways are you all going to recycle the same dozen names until RML is satisfied that the list will always include Berkeley? rML is terrified of a situation in which someone else might not think of Berkeley as highly as he does.</p>

37

<p>“
It’s more than just not having heard of LACs. It’s also a matter of a cultural bias toward “practical” and technical education. A student returning to China knows what he hopes to do with an engineering or business degree, but he would have a more difficult time explaining the value of a liberal arts degree or what he planned to do with it."</p>

<p>True enough. So why would a student who desires a liberal arts education be concerned with the opinions of people who don’t value such education? Why wouldn’t they conclude that such opinions are meaningless and useless?</p>

38

<p>Because the opinions of the people who don’t value such education are often the ones running the largest Chinese companies now. Many Chinese entrepreneurs often have not attended US universities but still managed to rise up to the top of the financial ladder in China, and also many large industries in China are still state-owned. In these areas, an education in business or engineering from a prestigious well-known university can get you much farther than a top-tier LAC education.</p>

<p>For example, Trojans is one of the more well-known brands in the large cities of China, due to USC’s marketing which covers all the large cities. Also, schools like USC have exchange programs with chinese universities which allow Chinese students to get a first-hand glimpse at overseas education. However, most LACs do not offer exchange programs with Chinese universities and this is another reason that they have remained under the radar.</p>

39

<p>Who cares. Who cares. Who cares.</p>

<p>There is no way to measure “prestige,” whatever that is, and even if there was, so what? Why are people on CC so convinced that going to Harvard would give them some tangible advantage in life over Princeton graduates, and why do they base this opinion on irrelevant data, like the respective brand powers of these two institutions in countries most CC users will never visit, and why do they not realize that being an exceptional student at a community college would ultimately benefit them more than being a talentless slacker who’s barely survived Harvard, and why do they not realize that a diploma from Yale might raise an eyebrow or two at a job interview, but demonstrating knowledge, social skills, and competence would actually get them the job? Why are they obsessed with ranking colleges by misguided criteria, and why do they act like these lists are in any way helpful when they’re, statistically speaking, extremely unlikely to be admitted to more than one or two of these institutions and will therefore never be in a position to choose between them?</p>

<p>I don’t understand.</p>

40

<p>Ghostt, I think you’re just over-responding to the OP’s question. I’d believe they’re just curious as to see which universities have a good brand name. A good brand name does not necessarily mean that they will receive a good education, I’ll give you that, but I think this is just something they want to know.</p>

<p>Besides, this is CC, where 0.01% is statistically significant.</p>