<p>LogicWarrior: Actually, studies have shown that wealthy African-Americans score lower than lower-class Asians on the SAT. In other words, the difference can’t be accounted for by socioeconomic factors, since even poor Asians are doing better than rich Black students (who have access to private tutoring, prep courses, better schools). This leads us to conclude that cultural differences account for the achievement gap. In other words, lower-class Asian immigrants from poor countries would feel more compelled to do well, which combined with Asian cultural values (emphasis on education) lead them to do higher on tests than the wealthier Black-Americans. This is why AA is not based on socioeconomic factors but on ethnic background in most colleges. </p>
<p>I’ll try to find the data on that and post it if you like…I do remember someone posting it on an earlier thread on affirmative action.</p>
<p>As a personal anecdote, my dad came here from a 3rd world country in south asia, went to a heavily-black school in a working-class NYC neighborhood which had a huge dropout rate, and still did really well and went to an ivy league school. Statistics show poor Asians still tend to do well and pull themselves out of poverty relatively easily compared to african-americans who have been living in this country for centuries (obviously because of the past history with segregation/barriers to education plus cultural values). So I disagree AA should be based on economic class.</p>
<p>How is affirmative action not racist. You are assuming that black people or mexicans can’t get in college without help. </p>
<p>AA should be socioeconomic. You are saying that a rich black kid should have a leg up over a poor white or asian kid? That is racist. LogicWarrior you are a racist.</p>
<p>People who have gone to schools which have large black populations can see this is true (for the most part). While I wouldn’t necessarially say they are dumber (which would sound racist), education is not important in Black culture, where it is in White and Asian cultures. </p>
<p>“By the way, I support economic-based Affirmative Action (with a combination of scholarships and quotas) instead of race-based because you can’t quantify racism.”</p>
<p>Anyway, the privilege of being rich should overcome any mitigating factors of race. Basing AA on “cultural values” comes dangerously close to using racial stereotypes that black people are lazy, asian people are hard workers, etc. Most racism comes from whites self-segregating away from minorities because they feel threatened, leaving minorities in poor, run-down neighborhoods. Even Barack Obama said that he doesn’t want his daughters to have a leg up in college admissions, because they ARE privileged.</p>
<p>This could be a whole new thread, but let me make 3 points.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Most people in the United States are of mixed race. Remember the “1/8” rule from history class?</p></li>
<li><p>Read the criticism section. He uses small sample sizes, non-native populations, old IQ tests, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>Even if that were absolutely true and some races had higher IQ than others, would it make sense to only educate the highest race? Sounds dangerously close to eugenics to me.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>LogicWarrior: here is the mentality that colleges have, and rightly so - we can all be politically correct and say, “Hey, we’re all Americans, we should all be treated equally!” but that would be a great disservice to URMs, and also colleges want more ethnic diversity to make themselves look good. The fact of the matter is, cultural differences matter, not economic differences. Rich blacks do worse than poor Asians; this is a fact and colleges have to make decisions based on it. Believe me, cultural differences make a huge difference. I used to think like you, saying it was so unfair and economic differences are all that should matter, until I attended a lecture on AA hosted by my college. </p>
<p>Pres Obama is right about his daughters, obviously they’re extremely privileged, but the fact is, many black children (i’ve heard as many as 30%!) live in poverty. And since studies have shown that even privileged black students often don’t do as well, it would be stupid for colleges to dig their heads in the sand and ignore that fact. This is my personal opinion (and also the opinion of most colleges in the US)</p>
<p>As for IQ differences, please don’t take those seriously, although the KKK loves to point it out. My History teacher in HS gave us an IQ test from the 1930’s which we all failed, because of the cultural barriers. He did this to show us that cultural barriers do make a difference in IQ tests, which we all thought was BS until taking the test.</p>
<p>Logic, I wasn’t defending the study, and don’t claim it’s reliable or anything. I’m just saying it’s something interesting to look at. </p>
<p>Only thing I’m going to defend is what I actually wrote.</p>
<p>And a question to those who say that AA should be based on race, and citing that wealthy Blacks do worse than poor Asians, how does that not completely derail your argument? Isn’t the reason for AA that they would be smarter had they had the same opportunities? Doesn’t that show exactly the opposite?</p>
<p>^ Good point. But you have to realize 2 things:</p>
<p>1) Colleges don’t really care that much about helping out URMs to be altruistic. Universities are a business; they want to improve diversity to make themselves look better, so they can say they have a diverse student body with more Black/Hispanic/Native American students and AA gets the job done.</p>
<p>2). Rich doesn’t mean your parents are college-educated or that you value education. By putting these URM students in college, colleges believe they are sort of changing their cultural mindset and making them embrace the concept of education so their own children will be more likely to go to college. Culture has a lot to do with it, maybe more so than money. And i don’t know the statistics, but I bet the children of college-educated black americans are more likely to go to college themselves.</p>
<p>I have talked to african-american students in college about this, and even some who are like middle-class have told me it’s a lot harder because they weren’t encouraged as much to do well in school (smart black kids get told they’re “acting white” by their peers sometimes if they excell, i’ve seen black students post similar things on CC as well). culture has a lot to do with it. I know as an asian american my culture made a big difference growing up as well.</p>
<p>Does the same thing not apply to some south-east asian ethnicities who recieve no extra considerations (not to offend people but Cambodians and Vietnamese?)</p>
<p>I have had little to no encouragement from my parents to do well in school (though I was never critized for doing well - that to me seems unimaginable), but still managed to do so. While I agree culture has a lot to do with this, it’s not something which can’t be overcome, and is certinly still the fault of themselves, and not the people around them. And if you argue with me I’ll ask what you think of people who had bad childhoods who are in jail for murder.</p>
<p>And beyond that, if these Black kids have already been conditioned to do poorly, then educationally they’ve become useless. Why should someone who doesn’t want to appear smart go to college? </p>
<p>I can’t really comment on whether or not being diverse makes them look better. But I guess what you say makes sense, why would they do it if it wasn’t to their benefit?</p>
<p>Qwerty, I understand what you’re saying and to an extent agree with you, but I understand it from the college’s perspective as well. They are private institutions trying to constantly make themselves look better by attracting more URMs. I don’t really know anything about specific southeast asian ethnicities, figured they lumped all east asians into a group. I understand your point with murder, but you can’t compare murder to not doing well on SAT’s, the same principle simply doesn’t hold. And by putting these criminals in jail rather than killing them, they do try to “reform” them (that one serial killer is now a born-again christian who writes a christian blog from jail) thus trying to change their values. I think with URMs they’re really trying to change the mindset the community has toward education (that it’s for white folk, and shockingly, a lot of people think this way, you’d be surprised). </p>
<p>Try to think of it like women and Engineering - they’re more lenient with women in admissions, but women aren’t poorer than men, or dumber (we do better in HS/College, thank you very much :)) however, it is slightly easier for women to get accepted because colleges want to balance out the ratio, partly for the benefit of society, partly to make themselves look better.</p>
<p>intelligence isn’t the only factor to success! most people only need to be “smart enough” to attend a good university. that’s why most people with really great test scores get rejected. </p>
<p>it’s not like the URM students end up doing worse than the white and asian students during and after college. having a diverse student body creates benefits that make it worth it to have affirmative action.</p>
<p>I understand that there are “Asian” gatherings, “African-American” gatherings, and “Latino” gatherings. But hearing “white only” makes me think of the 60s…</p>
<p>I get the mindset behind it, but the execution is…sloppy.</p>
<p>Sure, you could argue that because of racism, black and hispanic students don’t score as highly on the SATs. However, look at the line for asians. It crosses the line for whites after a certain income. Does this mean asians aren’t discriminated against in the education system (at least not in a negative way). Next, it seems that black kids from a family making 70k+ did worse than whites kid who comes from a family who who makes 0-10k per year (have government assistance). I don’t understand how this is possible. Maybe sometimes it happens, but on average?</p>
<p>Someone commented on this a few posts back. But I think it has largely to do with culture. From what I’ve heard, most Asians and Whites have a lot of pressure to do well in school. On the other hand, Hispanics and Blacks have pressure to not do well in school. As someone else said, blacks will be made fun of for “acting white” and trying hard in school. It’s amazing how expectations really influence how we act.</p>
<p>^ Yep exactly. Like I said, poor Asians will do better on average than rich black kids on tests like the SAT. Well, if poor Asians are doing better than rich blacks, it’s obviously not money that makes the difference, it’s race/culture. that’s why the AA should be socioeconomic argument makes no sense. colleges could easily fill their halls with smart, straight A students with matching SAT scores, but they want to create a diverse environment with all types of people (partly for the sake of diversity, partly to help out URMs so they won’t be underrepresented, mostly to make themselves look better). That’s why in most colleges, AA wil continue to be race-based rather than on money. Culture makes a HUGE difference, no sense in being PC about it.</p>
<p>Stop saying “it’s obviously culture” and “asians and whites work hard, blacks and hispanics are lazy” and provide proof. Otherwise it could be a lot of different things, including where you go to school, your family structure, or even what sports you play. (which does vary by race)</p>
<p>Now, colleges can either ignore these facts and say, “Hey, we’re all equal, let’s treat people the same!” or they can not be PC about it and resort to AA. Is AA unfair? Sure, but the whole admissions process is, you can’t help your race/gender/color/economic background. Colleges want ethnic diversity, because it makes them look better, and also to help out URMs who are disadvantaged, not only for economic-class reasons, but also becuase of culture (if it wasn’t partly culture, rich URMs would do better than poor asians, right?). Colleges don’t just take the students with the highest SAT, they want to build classes that are diverse in many ways, such as economic class, race, gender, etc.</p>
<p>Are men smarter than women? I don’t think so, but in areas where we’re underrepresented, like Engineering, we get a boost in admissions. I understand this and think it makes sense for the goals colleges want to accomplish.</p>
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