Move Over HYP. West Point Is #1.

Colleges and Universities A-Z Military Academy - West Point
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<p>“The academic program consists of a structured core of 31 courses balanced between the arts and sciences. Although cadets choose their majors in the fall of their sophomore year, they take the same course of instruction until the beginning of their junior year. Regardless of major, all cadets graduate with a Bachelor of Science degree.”</p>

<p>Enough said.</p>

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<p>Wait, what? Instead they say it’s in part made by its lack of costs. We established this already. Move on.</p>

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<p>Sigh. If you truly think it’s necessary, then yes, surprise me with the notability of their alumni. Just remember that we’re all aware of the presidents and congressmen that have come out of there. There’s more to life than politics. Perhaps we just differ on the very fundamentals of education, and thus it would be pointless to even compare, but if West Point does have a Thoreau in its alumni that I wasn’t aware of, let me know.</p>

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<p>This is not true. My sister is in the National Guard and she was sent to Iraq, and she has witnessed people being blown up by IEDs. </p>

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<p>You are really underestimating the quality of West Point. The fact that West Point is being viewed at as a VOCATIONAL institution by some people completely shocks me. I bet you that if people were to view this ranking in an earlier period they would agree with it. If you ever even looked at West Point’s website they have a pretty decent academic program, comparable to that of top schools. </p>

<p>And I wish I had the luxury and resources to choose a school without considering costs.</p>

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<p>Elses: If by vocational education you mean “teaching procedural knowledge”, then yes West Point has vocational training which prepares cadets (they work hard to earn that title!) to be commissioned officers in the US Army. Sandhurst Academy in England does much the same (I believe Prince Harry and Prince William graduated from that “vocational school” after they completed university). However, unlike Sandhurst, West Point is also an academic institution. </p>

<p>At graduation, in addition to being commissioned as an Officer in the US Army, every cadet graduates with a Bachelor of Science degree - even those who major in a foreign language or International Relations etc. - because every cadet has to take core course load in math, science and physics etc. Cadets carry heavy course loads to accomplish this. A cadet’s major has no bearing on the branch he serves in the Army e.g. a cadet may Major in Civil Engineering and Branch Infantry.</p>

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<p>Well, another poster(DeadMonkey, I believe) stated essentially that the war on terror was pointless, as if our troops weren’t out there fighting it for a good reason. I can understand anyone who disagrees with the Iraq War, but I do not quite get why someone would have opposed the conflict in Afghanistan. What, we should just leave the terrorists alone?
There is certainly zero appreciation in that post for any of the efforts US troops have made in combating the Taliban so far, and killing several of the top operatives responsible for attacks on the very “democracies” we all claim to love.
Why are these efforts not worthy of appreciation? </p>

<p>Then you say this:

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<p>And DeadMonkey says essentially the same thing. In your own words, suspicion of the military is the order of the day. I sense no appreciation at all. </p>

<p>You imply that war is never necessary, as if to completely ignore the fact that major conflicts fought in the past are the sole reason we are sitting here in the most powerful nation on the planet with the freedom and time to gab at each other on an online forum.
The wars fought to protect this democracy most certainly deserve glorification, and our efforts in them should never be portrayed as evil. Without them, we wouldn’t even have the freedom to debate this.</p>

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<p>I’m not suggesting that everyone put the military on the pedestal nor am I suggesting that the USMA be the consensus #1 college in the country.
I am suggesting some balance. It is true that some conflicts(such the invasion of iraq) are not wholly necessary. Opportunities for such unnecessary conflicts will always present themselves. However, it is also true that necessary conflicts will make themselves apparent now and forever. We have a strong, respected democracy in the US and in other developed countries. We have to realize that not everybody likes that and not all of them are going to listen to reason. In time, some of them will come to challenge us. That is why a sufficiently large military is necessary-we have to make sure that no future opportunist robs future generations of the freedoms we enjoy. </p>

<p>The USMA is going to provide us with the people responsible for ensuring that all of this stuff that I’m talking about comes to pass, and that all of our necessary conflicts in the future will be resolved. As such, I really and truly believe that they deserve more respect than I see some here giving them. You don’t have to support the glorification of unjust wars to appreciate our servicemen and the great institutions that mold them. The military is about more than that, and it has certainly given you, myself, and everyone else in here more than that to. </p>

<p>And for all those who talk of taking military money to spend on social programs to cut poverty and what not, I ask: Does the military(and the academies that feed it) not have any social benefits at all?</p>

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Then why does ratemyprofessor.com get more weight than anything else?</p>

<p>I don’t think it matters who is on the top and who is on the bottom. The methodology is flawed. They may as well have given weight to the length of the school’s wikipedia page.</p>

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<p>While I do disagree with much of what you say (JLaw45), I greatly appreciate you speaking in a well-thought out, mature manner. Most of the counter-arguments I’ve seen here boil down to flag-waving and “burn the traitors”, which comes nowhere close to swaying an anti-war liberal as myself. Thank you for your intellect.
Don’t get me wrong, I do appreciate the soldiers. It takes major balls to wade into the thick of a sh.t-storm in the name of your country, regardless of your rationale. And in some instances, I do believe that it is important to enter this fight (the Revolutionary and World Wars are the two that come to mind). I just honestly don’t feel that this is one of those instances. This is of no fault of the soldiers, a job’s a job. This criticism is directed at the politicians who feel it is more important to go on a goose hunt for these terrorists (letting the bad guys know in the process, yes, their scare tactics work), or taking down Iraqi regimes in the name of democracy.
My personal belief is that for the safety of the troops our country loves, we take them out of the maelstrom of IEDs and guerrilla-style insurgents and bring them home. If the enemy doesn’t want us there, let them have their desert. This saves thousands of lives on both side, as well as the billions of dollars our country needs in a global recession. Just my $0.02.</p>

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<p>Williams higher than Amherst? Obviously flawed, pfff… </p>

<p>And I don’t even go to Williams.</p>

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<p>DeadMonkey, I appreciate so much the fine men and women who become officers in the military in order to defend your right to your opinions.</p>

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Well, Poe (Edgar Allen, that is) attended but couldn’t hack it so he flunked out.</p>

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<p>" If the enemy doesn’t want us there, let them have their desert. This saves thousands of lives on both side, as well as the billions of dollars our country needs in a global recession. Just my $0.02. "</p>

<p>Do I really need to do anything more than quote this - isn’t the fallacy self-evident? In the 90’s, we were perfectly happy to do exactly what you say - let the Taliban and the assorted Jihadists alone, and they’ll leave us alone. That approach didn’t work out so well, if I remember correctly. The Taliban arose after we abandoned the “desert” of Afghanistan once the Soviets pulled out - and we paid for our neglect in blood. What price do you think we’d pay this time if we abandoned it once more? </p>

<p>As a former soldier myself, I expect most soldiers over there now would see things a bit differently; I think that, rather than hearing people repeat cost-free slogans like “Support our Troops - Bring them home”, they’d prefer that those who profess to care for their safety instead enlist - a combat MOS is preferred, to take their places while they rotate home, but it takes cooks and medics and logistics people to keep boots on the ground, too, and they’d welcome anyone who wants to get their hands dirty, even REMF’s. By the way, they pretty much think the same of those who want to solve every problem by “Sending in the Marines” - “We’ll be right behind you, Senator!” :wink: </p>

<p>When it comes to matters military, unless you’ve personally worn the uniform, (not your uncle, your neighbor, or your BFF), most vets will just kind of roll their eyes when a civilian ventures some opinions about it. Particularly unwelcome are those patronizing souls who profess pity for soldiers, but who do so in the belief that every soldier only enlisted because they’re ■■■■■■■■, criminally insane, unemployed and desperate to escape some inner-city hell-hole, or a felon who chose the military rather than 20 years in prison, all of whom spend their days committing war crimes. </p>

<p>Poets and Anthropology majors are fine and all, it takes all kinds to make a society, but I know when the levees break, towers fall, harvests fail, or war breaks out, I’ll take a West Point-trained engineer every time. </p>

<p>Anyway, my $0.02.</p>

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<p>“become officers in the military in order to defend your right to your opinions.”
no thomas jefferson, george washington, ben franklin did that. the terrorists aren’t attacking the constitution or bill of rights.</p>

<p>oh and i just realized this is located in the west point forum, not just the front page, so im actually less surprised there are this many pro-war activists in here. just like in iraq, this isn’t a fight i can win here, so im out.</p>

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<p>“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget ye were our countrymen.” – Samuel Adams</p>

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<p>Is there no limit to their skills and daring?</p>

<p>I would personally take an Iowa State agronomist.</p>

<p>[but then a Sorghum would be biased].</p>

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<p>I was hoping you would bring that up, but in all honestly I cannot believe anyone claiming the quality of an institution would list those who went to it due to their lack of money and then left by purposely getting court-martialed. Check your facts, he didn’t flunk out; he wanted to leave.</p>

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<p>elses - I understand your issue with the Forbes ranking, but I fail to understand your complete disdain for West Point as an institution. What first hand knowledge do you have of the school, and on what do you base your opinions? </p>

<p>If you look a bit further you may be surprised by what you find. Yes, some things may be different when compared to the Ivy Leagues:</p>

<p>At West Point:
• There is no grade inflation
• Deciding to skip a class is not an option
• All classes are taught by Professors (there are no TAs), and Professors are easily accessible (student-faculty ratio at West Point is approximately 8 to 1)
• Class sizes are small (usually 12-18 cadets)
• With few exceptions cadets must graduate in 4 years (even double majors)
• No transfer credit is given towards graduation requirements for prior college classes or AP classes, but class validation based on further testing allows cadets to take more advanced classes and/or additional electives
• All cadets are required to take core science classes and so even those Majoring in English, graduate with a Bachelor of Science degree. However, core classes also include Economics, Political Science, Philosophy, Literature, Law, Foreign Language, English Composition etc. so these classes are also taken by Engineering Majors
• Only undergraduate study is offered
• Academic study is supplemented with military training, mandatory athletic participation, and a comprehensive leadership training program
• A strict Honor Code prohibits lying cheating or stealing or tolerating those who do </p>

<p>But, there are many similarities:
• The curriculum is challenging
• Critical thinking is expected
• Summer internships (Academic Individual Advanced Development (AIAD)) are offered
• Community service is encouraged
• There are study abroad programs (which include programs at civilian colleges)
• Creativity, moral awareness, and a commitment to progressive and continuing educational growth is instilled
• 42 majors are offered</p>

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<p>Whoa, Sorghum, you just went somewhere you don’t really want to go.</p>

<p>Ironically, I am an Iowa State agronomist. I loved (still love) my field and my beloved alma mater. Instructors in the ag college were top of the line. Extension, Research and Teaching were well-respected. I even knew lots of ISU engineers. Obviously, ISU produces agriculturalists and engineers who know their stuff. But I am now intimately acquainted with USMA and I can tell you, ISU does not hold a candle to the education obtained by a West Pointer. Yes, even when the harvests fail. </p>

<p>And an anonagron isn’t even biased.</p>

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<p>Not to mention the notable conservatism of Forbes… </p>

<p>Does it really surprise you that they picked a military institution?</p>

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<p>I think that the disparity in some of the rankings (by which I mean, the difference between US News and Forbes) is seriously screwed.
At the end of the day, I think I’ll go with the US News rankings…</p>

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<p>I put much more faith in US News & World Report rankings. At least their list makes sense.</p>

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<p>I happy to go very far down that road.</p>

<p>I still think that in case of crop failure, Iowa State agronomists (like you, anonagron) are more useful than West Point engineers.</p>

<p>I also think that both Iowa State and West Point have distinctly inferior engineering programs compared to the elite (such as MIT). You can’t make world class engineers out of people without top level mathematical ability.</p>

<p>By the way, in terms of managing for harvest failure, the US military hasn’t done a great job at reducing the opium poppy production in Afghanistan.</p>