<p>I don't know if this is the right place for this thread, considering it is about the hard task of getting into this crazy major...but here goes.</p>
<p>When my son was home for break, he and a friend - also an MT - were discussing that a couple of kids in their freshman MT class were "dropping out"...whether literally (one is changing majors altogether) or by default (not showing up for class on time, not taking their master classes seriously, not practicing enough, etc.)</p>
<p>My jaw dropped. After this insane process, how does a kid (and his parents) decide after one semester :eek: that they would rather be in fashion merchandising?! At an out of state school?! Or that the just don't have the inner drive for this after all?</p>
<p>My kid eats, sleeps and breathes theatre, and has since the 3rd grade. I had no qualms entering this whirlwind process and defending to other people his choice of major. But I would be so shocked and dismayed if he gave up on it so quickly after all it took to get him here (money, time, lessons, not to mention my debilitating CC habit :D)</p>
<p>These kids aren't even allowed to try out for a show until second semester, so it wasn't as if it was a "rejection" thing (I'll never get cast in anything becuz they have their pets, etc)What is your theory? Do they simply not like the rigors of a program that is so different from the college experience of their peers? Did they not have this level of discipline coming in? (Between theatre, show choir and lessons, I feel my son has just continued his h/s schedule and it is not a shock to him...isn't that the case with most of these kids?)</p>
<p>Anyway, interested to hear some opinions. (I should add that this is a very small percentage...I do not feel like it is a poor program so the kids are bailing. On the contrary, my son chose this one over some other good ones...) What do you think?</p>
<p>I think many kids really don’t realize the time commitment that MT takes. These kids are literally going from 8am to midnight most days. Some kids thrive on that, others burn out. College MT is very different from most HS. My kids go/went to a performing arts magnet HS, so they were used to the rigorous pace. But I’d imagine there are many HS’s where MT is a “sometimes” commitment (1 or 2 shows a year). Not to mention that many kids arrive at college after being “the star” in HS and find that they are just one of many (and a freshman to boot!).</p>
<p>In my line of work, I run into some people who I feel underestimate what is involved in attending a BFA program. It is not like regular college. The schedule alone involves many more hours of formally scheduled time…classes all day, rehearsals (or crew) evening and weekends. Not much free or down time as the little they get is for homework and prep for class. Some have lived this life a bit prior to college already (though it is even more intense in college)…including my own kid even though we do not have performing arts high schools here…she was gone all day and evening and weekends between school and her extracurriculars and the travel involved to do them all for many years prior to entering college. </p>
<p>Another point I want to make is that some discount needing academic qualifications to be admitted. I, for one, think the academic qualifications are important because it is not so much that you can show you are good at math, for example, but taking rigorous courses in high school coupled with very good grades can demonstrate a kind of work ethic that is required in a BFA program. In fact, high school kids who managed to juggle rigorous HS courses and artistic training and theater productions and still get good grades, are likely more apt to succeed in a BFA program. I run into some kids who are poor students, even if they are artistically talented. And even in their work on the college applications and essays, they are more lax and talk about not being able to fit it in as they are so busy and yet I have other students taking far more rigorous courses who are also in shows and training and getting very good grades and still fit in working on their college applications. They are just as busy as the other kids but have a certain work ethic and time management skills to juggle it all. And frankly, I think they make better BFA candidates because I always think if these seniors who can’t seem to fit in working on college applications because they are too busy now, they are underestimating what they will have to juggle in a BFA program (much more) and I wonder if they are cut out to handle it. </p>
<p>So, perhaps some who are enthusiastic about MT have underestimated what a BFA program and daily life is like until they experience it and either find out it is not for them, or else they actually can’t handle it and the program feels they will not succeed. </p>
<p>Then, of course, like people in any major, they may just decide they don’t like their college or their major and leave or switch. After all, age 17 is young to commit to a specific major which is what a BFA applicant must do. Some are not truly ready to make that commitment. That is why a BA path is more appropriate for many kids who are not 110% sure of it. I worry about the kids who say in senior year that they are not sure they want a BFA or a BA because that sentiment alone is an indication that a BA might be the better option as it is more flexible and not a commitment to enter the program directly and to spend the majority of their time in their major. Typically, college students declare their major in their sophomore year and this is for a reason…college is about exploring and not being sure what you want to do when you are still in high school. Some kids, like mine and many here, have known what they have wanted to do in their lives for years and years, and are ready to make this commitment. But many are not so sure and they should be guided to do a BA path , which is a viable path to a life in the theater.</p>
<p>Has there ever been a thread on CC which describes a day in the life/a year in the life of a BFA MT student? I know all programs are different, but there have to be lots of similarities. It might be interesting to those trying to decide if this is for them…or just for laughs!</p>
<p>I haven’t seen a thread on it per se, but it has come up in discussions. For instance, it comes up sometimes when people talk about the differences between a BA and a BFA.</p>
<p>I have to tell ya that my kid is just as busy and scheduled up after graduating her BFA as when she was in it.</p>
<p>I think its just the nature of the beast that individuals choose to leave. Some because of funding, some because they realize that this just isn’t for them, and some who can’t handle the challenge. We had a girl leave the program a month into it, and we have a girl transferring over this break to be a psych major at another school. Unfortunately, this is just what happens.</p>
<p>I get that kids change majors all the time…but THIS is not your typical major…it totally floors me that there are 1,000 threads on this forum for kids desperate to get in and worrying about the most miniscule of details, millions of dollars and millions of hours spent auditioning, traveling, practicing, hopes and dreams raised and dashed, tears, fears, elation…could it really be true after all of that that some didn’t understand what they were signing up for? And to leave after a month? Just WOW. </p>
<p>Anyone else want to share? Is this typical?</p>
<p>One thing that comes to mind is what our family refers to as “The Suzuki Effect”. I’m sure this doesn’t apply to most of our MT kids, but we’ve watched countless kids slave over Suzuki music lessons, practicing for hours each day, only to drop their instrument and never look at it again the minute they get away from their parents who, as it turned out, were the ones with the real passion for music.</p>
<p>I was actually relieved when DD decided she wants to pursue a BA with a double major, on the off chance that some of her lifelong love of MT has been rubbing off from us grownups. This way if she gets to college and suddenly realizes she longs to be a historian (or whatever) that option will still be open to her. </p>
<p>I do know there are kids with a laser focus on some career since birth, and am guessing that most of our MT kids are those, but these kids are a small minority so it makes sense that 80% of college kids switch majors at least once.</p>
<p>My D did leave her first BFA MT program after 1 semester. She was at her “dream” school; the one she had wanted to attend for years. She was getting good grades and was cast in the main stage show her 1st semester. However, as the semester progressed, she was not happy with the program. I don’t think she was probably very honest with herself about what she was looking for in a program, as all she had ever wanted was to go to this school. In any event, she found she really missed having more academics, and that she missed being in a large university atmosphere. She really wanted to be mixed in with both MT and non-MT types, which was not the case where she was. When she left, I think a lot of her fellow students thought she had “dropped out”. However, she came home and attended a CC for 3 semesters, and then reapplied to MT programs this year. She was accepted into several programs and ended up at another BFA MT program. This time, she could not be more happy. She is in a large university setting, she has had the opportunity to take more academic classes, she rooms with non-performing arts majors, and is finding the small MT program to be exactly what she wanted. This is not to say that the first program was not good; only that it was not for her. We know kids who go there who absolutely love the school and program, and are very successful there. </p>
<p>We do know a couple of kids who have left MT programs after a short time for a variety of reasons. One found he wanted to concentrate on voice rather than MT, one because of cost, and a couple who decided that they didn’t feel the could compete in the MT world and transferred to other schools in non-MT majors. No matter how much research and planning we all do, sometimes it just isn’t what was expected. Fortunately for my D, it all worked out. She did have to transfer in as a soph. instead of a jr., but that was not an issue for her.</p>
<p>^^really interesting. Very valid point that no matter how much you plan (and dream) things might not go exactly as you thought.</p>
<p>My son is also in a BFA program in a university setting, with about half of his classes in required core cirriculum (math, science…) I always felt that would make a difference, not only to his options should he ultimately decide to do a second degree later on, but also because it exposed him to non-MTs and other subjects. They really front-load the MT subjects in Freshman/Soph years, tho. This is partly because one thing builds on another (ballet first then other dance, need to get piano started early, etc.) but I am sure some of that is to “test” some of the new recruits with the lifestyle right away and see if they like/can handle it.</p>
<p>Great discussion, and probably important food for thought for those of us with kids starting down this path!</p>
<p>Another factor that may come in to play is the obvious fact that theatre is filled with very strong personalities. In a small program, a personality conflict with even one student or faculty member could be hard for some kids to live with for four years. And if a kid knows their family is sacrificing a lot to pay tuition, they might well decide it’s not worth it to tough it out.</p>
<p>Very good points! I think there are so many factors that go into this. I know of one student who left at the break because they just “weren’t ready for college.” So they are going to take a gap period and figure it out. And this wasn’t a student who wasn’t very talented - just one who apparently wasn’t ready for college. Know of another who left to re-audition at schools closer to home. I have a friend whose S is in a top-ranked BFA Acting program. The freshmen had juries before break and 9 out of 20 didn’t pass. It won’t surprise me if some of those don’t return from break, even the ones who weren’t told they “needed to find another school.”</p>
<p>This business is HARD. In addition to school work, on campus job, rehearsals for shows and tech work, my D is trying to schedule in auditions for summer stock jobs. There isn’t any down time. Like others we know, she had to be back at school a week early for rehearsals. Maybe we should be surprised that more don’t choose to pursue other paths…</p>
<p>Maybe I will have my son post a thread about “A day in the life…/A year in the life.” He kind of checked out of CC (and I was the one who got addicted instead! :p) but I know he appreciated all of the help he got here. It might help some who are questioning whether this is for them, and it might just be fun.</p>
<p>Austinmom, maybe you could get your D to do the same…it would be great to hear from lots of kids.</p>
<p>It would be great if your kids did such a thread, and maybe including some folks in highly-regarded BA programs would be useful as well (I know it would be to us).</p>
<p>@soozievt – your comments about high school academic achievement being a possible predictor of success in BFA programs was interesting to me (as are virtually ALL of your insights), as I admit that I still worry that Ds ED selection of Northwestern might strand her in a program with less-talented kids than she would have found in one of the selective BFA programs in a less academically-rigorous environment. Maybe setting the academic bar high does help ensure a class full of capable and hardworking kids?</p>
<p>MomCares, I think your D will find some highly talented MT kids at Northwestern, many of whom were admitted to BFA programs but chose to attend NU. Also, in the MT Certificate program there, they have auditions and so those who make it in are quite talented. I know many who have attended who have had BFA options, so keep that in mind. </p>
<p>I do think that BFA programs involve a certain work ethic and time management skills. One way to ascertain readiness for that is to look at the kind of student an applicant has been in high school. That can translate into how they can handle a very demanding BFA program. </p>
<p>Even in my own work, I find the kids with the low GPAs and less rigorous curricula in HS to be less able to handle the application process and juggle things than the kids who are excellent students and have even more work on their plates to juggle. I find if they can’t handle this, I wonder how they will handle the extreme demanding schedule of a BFA program. Thus, I think programs should examine the kind of student you are, beyond your singing, acting, and dancing talent. You can be very talented but not be able to handle the rigors of a college program.</p>
<p>Thanks, @susievt, that all makes perfect sense. I’ve consistently heard similar reports about NU, plus D knows other really talented MT kids who were also accepted ED, so in my saner moments I have no doubt that she’ll find plenty of talented friends there and one can surmise they’re all incredibly bright. And I suppose Meryl Streep and Tom Hanks might know something about recognizing good theatre programs? </p>
<p>I also know several kids in really selective BFA programs who have been redirected to become theatrical business managers, writers, stage managers and casting agents, so I know in any program there are kids who aren’t destined to be performers. In many ways this is a huge networking advantage versus only knowing future actors. </p>
<p>There’s one other thing related to some kids changing their minds once they get in to a college MT program that I’ve wondered about. Our D certainly fits the description of a kid who is non-stop on-the-go from 7am to midnight virtually every day of her life, and seems driven to excellence in every aspect of her existence.</p>
<p>Still, perhaps like many other parents here at CC, I find that my husband and I tend to help her along in various ways… helping to organize college audition scheduling, delivering forgotten music, advising with song choices, etc. being small examples. I wonder if some kids fall apart when that bit of parental support is removed?</p>
<p>Or maybe this is just something every parent wonders when kids head off to college – can they actually survive without us? ;-D</p>
<p>I had all those same qualms…it seemed I needed to be overly involved with my son’s auditions, applications, etc. Part of it is my personality…but part of it is that it is really complicated (look at the number of threads on this forum!! and the number of parents posting who are helping out their kids!) so I don’t think it is “enabling” to help them navigate it the first time…that’s how they learn. And I think part of it is that this kids, by nature of their creativity are super right-brain (or is it left-brain…I can never remember!) and organizational details just don’t come as easily to them.</p>
<p>On the other hand, my son is just fine on his own…almost straight A’s first semester. All that good coaching was not for nothing, and he figured the rest out by trial and error. Not to worry… (altho we all do!)</p>
<p>Sorry if this has already been said (I am old and forgetful) but I also got tired of explaining why I was so involved in my son’s audition/application processes. So many people were like “it’s his deal, why don’t you just let him sink or swim…why are you managing his time, etc.” Can you imagine a kid navigating this all alone? I am sure there are many that do…but I know it was hard for ME to understand!!</p>
<p>I got accused of being a “helicopter” or “snow plow” mom soooo many times. I just smile and nod. (oh, and grit my teeth!)</p>
<p>This may be a little off OP topic, but does relate a bit to the idea of why there may be atrophy in programs… “fit” both fit in terms of program and fit in terms of major …</p>
<p>MomCares – I would not worry about the quality of the peer group in MT at NU. Many very talented students choose to attend because it is a top notch program for Theatre and MT combined with top notch academics… and as SoozieVT points out there is additional audition for the MT Certificate program after the freshman/ sophomore year “so those who make it in are quite talented.” The grads who I have met of NU certainly are!</p>
<p>I teach in a BA program where student are as busy (and I think as talented ;)) as many of their BFA counterparts… although often juggling a larger academic core course load outside of their major than students in many BFA programs (although there are BFA programs that have hefty academic course work inside and/ or outside of the major as well), they are in rehearsals in the evenings and weekends, and follow a rigorous course load in their major. People are looking for different types of programs. I think it is great that there are so many options from which students can choose for training. For some a 2 year conservatory will be the best fit… for others a four year conservatory based program… for others a program that has a balance of academic and artistic course work… for some a more liberal arts focused program with training either within or outside of the major… some forgo “formal” education all together and work with teachers and coaches and take classes “ad hoc.” So many options.</p>
<p>I attended a BFA MT program, teach in a BA MT program, and am the artistic director of a summer theatre that hires many advanced college students, emerging professionals, and young working professionals. I am fortunate that I get to see auditions and work with students and graduates from many different educational backgrounds. BA, BFA, BM, etc…</p>
<p>It is all about the “best” path for a particular student to learn and grow. There are many different paths to training and a successful career. This is where it is about program “fit.” NU is a TERRIFIC school both for training and for broad based education. For the student who wants that kind of balance it will be a terrific fit.<br>
Congrats to your D. NU is a terrific program. I have been lucky to audition and work with great artists who have trained and been educated there. </p>
<p>Back to OP – When a student chooses to leave a program (either to go to a different training program or to pursue a completely different path of study) it will most likely have to do with the fact that the program/ course of study is not the right match. I know people who have completed training programs, gone on to very successful performing careers and are now doctors, lawyers, etc… they are happy in their lives and made choices based on their needs and life goals. Some students discover this early and make an educational adjustment… others are happy with their path for a while and later make discoveries and changes focus. Some made truly made the “ultimate” match choice as 17 year olds and will follow that initial career path for the long haul. All paths are “right” if they are the right choices for the individual. </p>
(altho we all do!)</p>