<p>2DsnMT - What an honor to be pre-selected to audition! Even though I'm sure she didn't need it, it was certainly a great talent confirmation.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification theatermom - much better than my feeble attempt!</p>
<p>I'd love to hear from some voice teachers - although I think the answer to those questions would vary all over the board and depends upon so many different factors. In retrospect, I'm sure that the first 5 years of my child's training could have been accomplished in only 1 year at age 15 but I don't regret a moment of it because that voice has brought so much joy to our friends and family over the years - as I'm sure you all can attest to with your children:)</p>
<p>Ericsmom - it's so hard for boy with that voice change. I understand some boys can sing right through it and others take years to fully change and through it all they go from baritone to tenor and back before settle God knows where. What a bumpy ride - it's easier to just wait it out and start lessons in the later teen years, but then you miss out on auditioning for some great Broadway boy roles.</p>
<p>My dd started lessons at 13, also with the Vaccai and Italian Art Songs. At age 18, she's just beginning to do more complicated arias, although she's been a member of a regional opera company since age 14 and learned quite a bit through them.</p>
<p>Like I'm sure so many of these talented CC kids are, my dd is very, very serious about her voice study and is a strong perfectionist. Her voice teacher is constantly telling her that her voice will go through several more changes until it settles in, which, classically, could mean another 10 years or so. She started out singing alto, worked through mezzo, and is now working on her upper range, giving her a 3 octave range. </p>
<p>With regard to colleges, I think they are looking for "potential". Good voice teachers and music faculty will recognize that college students are still very, very young.</p>
<p>Your dd did start lessons pretty early by most voice teachers accounts. But, the training was invaluable in terms of placements and repetoire. And, all the training will make it easier for her to study more seriously in the future. As long as she's been able to sing without any pain and her voice teacher has been pleased with her progress, I think you did good!!!!!</p>
<p>BTW--does your dd take piano lessons? My dd was always against it and was just accepted into a BM VP program. She never took piano lessons, but learned quite a bit of theory through voice lessons; however, she was told it would be a good idea to take some lessons this summer so she wouldn't be behind the instrumentalists in her classes in the Fall.</p>
<p>I agree with those who are posting about changes and development in their children's voices. My d has been taking voice lessons from a professional opera singer/NC School of the Arts since her sophomore year. Her voice has also gone from not being classified (which worried her, but several teacher told her this was fairly common), to being a lyrical soprano (who often sings alto in concert choir and for competitions), and her teacher said she could possibly end up being a mezzo. The important thing about her "classical" training, imo, is that not only is she learning classical repertoire, but her teacher focuses on taking care of the voice, technique, and also KNOWING what what you are singing and how to project that meaing when you are singing in a foreign language. </p>
<p>My d has had 7 years of piano, which I feel has helped her a lot with theory and sightsinging, but we know many who are going into a BM program who have had little or none, so I don't think it is absolutely necessary, but a good idea if one has the time!</p>
<p>Sounds like your dd has a good, solid base.</p>
<p>With regard to piano lessons.....no, it's not absolutely necessary to have studied piano (or any other instrument for that matter) to be accepted into a BM VP program. Piano is part of the degree and you must pass proficiency exams in order to graduate. I do think, however, that those with some instrument will have an advantage over those who don't, especially in theory study. Even though, of course, a good voice teacher will incorporate some theory into lessons, there is no substitute for good instrumental training when also training the voice.</p>
<p>After reading these posts I am well assured that my D voice teacher is instructing her correctly. She is 10 and started teo years ago with the voice teacher. Her teacher really calls it pre-voice as she stesses developmentally if you do thing s that the body is not yet ready to do you can do more damage then good!! She really stressed breath control and voice placement. D has been singing shor Italian Arias as well as Musical Theater. Her voice teacher will absollutelynot let her belt or sing glottal stops, says it can be to damaging to the voice at this age!! When I asked her which kind of voice does D have Musical theatre or classical she says it is too early to tell and that the classical training is a prerequiste for anything else she might do for voice in the future. For those of you familiar with NYSSMA D just sang a level 4 Italian Aria, Thoug of course she still has aways to go as developmentallly there are just some thing s that a ten year old voice and body can not do.</p>
<p>Congrats on your talented little girl. She's well on her way.</p>
<p>Sorry for all of the typos... I'm sure I will be soliciting advice from all of you as time goes on. Everyone here seem so suppotive.</p>
<p>Cama</p>
<p>Yes, my d has been taking piano for 7 years but really struggles with putting time into practicing (she's on major overload with everyone thinking THEIR stuff comes first) so she's far from the talents of a similar student who devotes all her time to practicing piano. Her piano teacher had told her when she started singing lessons that she MUST continue piano because "you will not be a stupid singer" - I was always horrified by that statement. I do see her point in that you do not want to be at the mercy of an accompanist to play and learn your music, but I think singing takes just as much talent as playing the piano. In fact singing can be harder because when you have the least little sniffle, your piano playing is uneffected, yet your voice always is. The piano has been invaluable with her sight-singing skills and she no longer gripes about practicing...although she still doesn't put in enough time.</p>
<p>I don't think your dd's teacher meant anything harmful about the piano lessons. Most voice teachers encourage piano (and my dd has no experience in piano) because it helps with theory and sight-singing, as well as musicianship as a whole).</p>
<p>I am so glad to see others have the VP/MT conflict. My D is a sophomore in high school. I am researching to see what schools would be good for her that are strong in MT and VP. Can one of you folks who have been at this for a while jot down a BIG LIST of schools to consider? I am glad to see mentioned are the schools I have figured out on my own, but I am sure there are others, too. So far what I came up with is this:</p>
<p>BW
OCU
UM
BOCO
NYU Steinhardt</p>
<p>How about CCM, and CMU? I know that these are the "ivies". Any back up schools? I know Indiana is good for music, how about MT?</p>
<p>I would suggest Northwestern. You can audition as VP since the MT program is a second year audition where about half the kids come from the non audition theatre program and the other half from VP, but MT seems to be run by the music program. My son was scheduled to audition there this spring but dropped the school upon an early acceptance elsewhere.</p>
<p>MT at Northwestern is NOT run by the Music School. The man who is in charge of MT is based in the School of Communications, where the theater dept is housed. Our research, including meetings with the MT Chair and the Director of Admissions of the Music School (this was in the fall of '03) made us take Northwestern off of our list. We felt that there was some real friction between the the two departments and they were not very respectful of each other. My D felt she'd constantly be having to serve two masters there (theater and music), let alone trying to fit any VP into the mix. Also, while you must audition to be accepted through the Music School, the Theater Department does not audition. My D was not impressed by the level of talent she saw in either the acting or MT classes, when compared to what she observed in several audition-based programs. Nor did she want to wait until the end of her freshman or sophomore year to audition for their MT program which is just a "certificate" program, not even a formal minor. The Chair of the MT program said he is working to put together a full blown MT degree program but as far as I know, it does not exist yet. Northwestern still has strong connections to the vibrant theater world in Chicago but I believe they are largely living on a well-deserved reputation from days long gone as educators of theater professionals. Caveat emptor!!</p>
<p>a.c.bay - I know nothing about CCM. I believe CMU is primarily acting based and not a good choice for the VP side (but I could be wrong). Your list looks good so far. I'm writing primarily to tell you about our impression of Indiana Univ. Below I'll copy for you my post of 2/8 right after our visit to IU. We loved it!!! More info. than I wrote before - VP is top notch there and requires an audition. Currently, the theatre program and the individualized study option (effectively MT) do not require auditions, although they are thinking of formalizing an MT program in the future, and they do not know if it would be audition-based. The theatre program itself is fabulous - especially for a BA. We loved the facilities, the people, and the play we saw. Out of 8 mainstage productions a year, 2 are musicals. Here was my post previously about IU:</p>
<p>Indiana University - Well, I just wrote you a nice long post about our visit to IU this weekend and the computer lost it when I tried to post, said I was not logged in (which I had been). In the interest of time since it is late - here's the short version.</p>
<p>We need to add IU to the Big List in my opinion because they offer an MT option through the Individualized Major program. It doesn't currently require an audition. They are considering combining an official MT program in the future between the theatre dept. and the school of music. Their theatre dept. is top notch, the school of music is one of the best in the country (theatre people can take voice from these teachers) and plentiful amounts of all dance types are offered.</p>
<p>We were impressed with their play Sat. night and with all of their nice new theatre facilities. The campus is also great. We could see why students are so happy there.</p>
<p>This school would be a perfect place for someone who wants to do performance acting, dance, and singing but also wants a BA liberal arts education with the ability to explore many areas. They are also very supportive of double majors or having a minor in another field. They seem to do the best with this of anywhere we have visited.
Let me know if you want more detail. IU is an excellent option to consider.</p>
<p>Ericsmom, A girl from our high school, who is friends with both my girls, is a freshman at Indiana doing MT like you mentioned. She auditioned for BFA programs last year and did not get accepted to any and thus landed at Indiana. I think it is great that you are sharing this possibility for those out there who want a NON audition or NON BFA school. Same with Muhlenberg. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>I did not personally visit Northwestern so I cannot comment on their MT program. It is true that the theatre majors do not have to audition to get into that program, though they say they count the resume strongly. I have no stats for the acceptance %, so can't tell you if it helps you to get into NW being a theatre major or if they have so many of such majors that the bar is even higher. But for someone interested in theatre who is not ready to audition or does not want to audition, this is a bonus. The MT program holds auditions. The music department does have MT profs listed in their brochure; my son met with some of those profs and did not feel any animosity towards the program, as he did feel at some schools where the idea of mixing MT with the drama or doing more than adding a private voice lesson to a theatre program would be ornerous. BC, BU , DePaul and Fordham fit into this category. S has two friends in the MT program at NW and they love it and the school, turned down other options for a chance at the program, and their summer internships that they got with help from the school are as good as they get. </p>
<p>To get into the vocal performance program at NW, you must undergo a rigorous audition, and the audition strongly counts for admission decisions. You can get in that way with stats that would not ordinarily get you into this school unlike some school where admissions department will determine who is eligible to get in either independently from the music department or will do its cull to to the music accepts if they do not meet academic requirements. I was told by NW's music department that admissions takes the music departments picks very seriously and that it would take an extreme case for them to deny admissions to someone who makes the NW voice audition. Those who want to audition for MT will do so the following year along with the theatre majors. It was an opinion given to my son that voice majors who want to go MT will not have a problem doing so. It is more challenging for the theatre majors to make the cut as there are more of them and they are an unauditioned group. You can be pretty danged sure that the vocal performance kids can sing if they got in. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, my son decided that this and the USC MT option (added later as a minor to the theatre major at that school) were worthwhile options to pursue. He loved both schools, liked the kids at both schools, felt that the department classes were well run, knew kids in the NW program (not USC"s) who were quite enthusiastic and were successful there. He did not feel any conflicts with the School of Music about going this route at all--as I said there are some profs specifically listed as MT in their book, and they were happy to introduce him to them; and they were enthusiastic as well. Now S never did end up auditioning but he did visit the school twice and stayed with a kid who was in the program. BUt it is very possible that someone may not like this program especially since there is a risk that you may not get into it at all. I have no acceptance stats for the MT option. My friend's son who did audition for voice at NW and was accepted with a sub B average and 1300 SATS also really liked the program and may be going there--have not heard his decision. I think it is worth looking at the program because the school is first rate and the music program is well respected. Don't know a thing about the theatre program. Did visit DePaul's when S auditioned there, and though for straight drama, it seemed very good, the music and dance options are just not there as they would be at NW. Depaul also has a mandatory cut program that I did not like. However the acting audition was the most strenuous one that S underwent and it was worth it for him to get that particular audition experience. </p>
<p>I have heard that Indiana's MT program is up and coming. .If they are able to coordinate the music part with the music department, it sounds promising to me. But I would always encourage visits and questons directed specifically at the department. Do remember, however, that sometimes a school that is not top rated in all areas may be a good option if you have an edge to get in there and you like the school. In MT it can be very dicey as to what your choices are going to be. You want to include some "offshore" alternatives where you may get the training and the environment you want. Someone who wants a school with name recognition, is strong in the voice dept and can do a classical voice audition and whose stats alone will not get them into a top school may find NW a very attractive choice. The quality of its MT program as compared to MIchigan, Syracuse or CMU may be not be as high, but you may have a better chance of getting into NW than any of those schools and may prefer them to some schools where the only reason you are applying is because of the MT program. Some kids find that an issue after they are well into the process. Harrt, Emerson, are excellent MT schools, but overall do you want to go there over a chance to go to NW vocal performance/MT second year option? THis is a choice you may want to add to your portfolio. One thing I did learn this year is that it is helpful to vary your choices somewhat, because MT has such low accept numbers. When all is done and the choices are on the table, you may decide that your really don't want to go to Boston Conservatory, for instance, even if it is by far your best MT choice, as it has a top program. But you may want a school that is more typical university rather than a conservatory. You may not love OCU's program enough to want to go there, and prefer a program that is not as highly rated but has a college that you are more comfortable with. Sometimes it comes to where you are accepted, not what you want.</p>
<p>jamimom - thanks for sharing your experience with Northwestern - good advice!</p>
<p>Jamimom wrote: "Sometimes it comes to where you are accepted, not what you want."</p>
<p>With regard to BFA MT programs, this comment is so important. I recall back last year or in the fall, when this crop of MT wannabes were discussing programs, everyone was talking of the merits of this or that program. Of course this is very important to do when selecting colleges. However, part of me felt it was almost moot because it is fine and good to think about which program you want or is ideal for you, the odds of getting into these programs is so well, minute, that it is likely going to come down to where you are accepted and not about selecting a school as much as we might have hoped. I'm not saying to NOT weigh the merits of each program and if it is a good fit, cause when April comes, you have to be ready and be in the know and have visited and all that jazz. But you have to temper the "this school is the right one for me" with "let's just see where I get in" (thankfully my kid kept the latter mantra all winter). It's good to know what you like or want or need and to investigate ALL programs thoroughly but also be aware that first they must pick YOU and if you are lucky, you might be able to pick them. I think my own kid was fortunate to have been given a choice. Often, it comes down to who accepts you and then if there is more than one option, yes, it is good to know what you want. I'm just talking these selective MT BFA programs and not as much normal college admissions. I get real concerned when I see a kid get very tied up with a "dream" college when elite colleges or BFA MT programs are involved. Look at them all openly because you might be going to ANY school on your list, not necessarily your most favorite. </p>
<p>Susan</p>