music ed or VP question

I am trying to help my daughter focus on an undergraduate degree as she will be a junior this September. At first she wanted to be a VP major and still does but her long-term goal is to teach and have her own studio though she loves performing. She has been taking piano and voice for man years. She wants to perfect her instrument and is concerned if she does do music ed even with a vocal/choral emphasis, she will not get the extensive training in voice that she would as a VP major. There are a couple of universities that allow one to double major in performance and music education but others do not. Some don’t have music ed as an undergraduate degree. If she were to get accepted into a school as a VP major, would it be difficult for her to get accepted into a music ed masters program and visa versa with vocal performance? I was told by one university that masters in music ed programs prefer to accept those with undergraduate degrees in music ed. I am just wondering if those who take music ed with a vocal emphasis also have juries, take French, German and Italian diction and are able to audition for Operas? Thanks for any insight you can offer.

I would suggest to look in detail at the course requirements for the degrees at each place she is considering and ask the faculty specifically whether Music Ed students get the same weekly lessons and studio classes as the straight VP students. All university programs will not be the same. BTW: U Michigan has a VP Major with music teacher certificate option that is very rigorous. It’s something she might consider.

She should only do the Music Ed if she wants to teach in a public school K-12. It is not needed to have a studio. What does she want to do with Music Ed - does she have a real desire to teach children in the public schools?

Thank you both for your replies. Good idea to check each of the schools. I have only checked a few but UOP seems to allow the same opportunities with respect to classes for music ed and VP majors. Cal State Fullerton as well. I guess there is no standard which is why I asked I thought they might be the exception. Seems it is on a school by school basis. We are on the west coast but will look into U Michigan. Her friend wants to do MT there. Yes, she does want to teach k-12. Perhaps later at a university but in the foreseeable future, she wants to teach music in the public schools as well as teaching privately.

She should only take music ed in the state where she wants to teach. U Michigan does not make any sense for your D. (Speaking from someone who came FROM Michigan TO California. It hardly ever happens the other way around.) Besides undergrad VP is expensive and so are OOS schools. Stick with in state California schools. Plenty of fantastic opportunities at schools like Fullerton, Long Beach, and UCLA.

This “go to an in-state school for music ed” seems to be the usual CC stance, but doesn’t work as well if you don’t have particularly stellar music programs in the schools in your state. At St. Olaf, they told us it doesn’t matter if you are going to teach in a different state–if there are additional requirements to be met for a certain state’s certification, you can normally get hired with an agreement to finish the requirements within X amount of time. Also, in this day and age, how do you know what state you’re going to end up in? It’s better to be able to be flexible about where you’re going to apply for positions, because it will open up more job opportunities.

@thevoicemom I agree that it is very much on a case by case basis whether the music Ed majors will get the same opportunities. At St. Olaf, for example, I would be comfortable that the music Ed majors would be on an equal footing. At Indiana, not so much. However these are just my opinions based partially on gut feelings having visited the schools, and should not be taken as fact.

I agree with the comments that you should check at each school for their specific offerings. That being said, I was an instrumental music ed major years ago. Weekly lessons were required and we did have juries each semester. Same for the vocal ed folks I knew. I believe this is a core part of any music ed program. However, as music ed our lessons were for fewer credit hours than the performance majors and expectations were slightly lower (more in terms of amount of literature studied). There wasn’t as much pedagogy training as performance majors got (because we were more focused on classroom teaching), but the teacher did teach teach some pedagogy both in lessons and master class. How much anyone gets out of the lessons always depends upon how much one puts into it and many of the music ed folks became very good performers. It is still about music after all.

I can’t answer about the language classes for vocal ed as I don’t remember that level of detail about their classes. I suspect they were not required, but checking each school’s requirements for the degree should answer that pretty quickly. But you may want to consider those schools that permit the double major.

Regarding the teacher license, I agree the easiest path is getting your degree in the state you want to teach. But if an out of state school seems best for you, don’t give up on it. Ask them about their success in getting people licensed in the state you want to teach. It happens pretty much every year so they can tell you what is involved. Some states are easier and other harder to transfer into, but it can be done (one of my good friends did).

But the OP does live in a state with excellent VP programs. That’s my point.There are some VERY good opportunities for undergrad voice students at the schools she mentioned. Even “stellar”. Choose an in state school with an excellent teacher and a good language program. Also, if she does want to do grad school, find out which state schools send their VP students on to the best programs. PM me if you wish.

My D was VP but had a lot of friends who were Music Ed. First of all, as others have said, you will really need to research this with each school once she has a good list. And you can check semester by semester class lists. That will give you some idea of time is spent.

Music Ed majors at my D’s undergrad (IU) were in studios with private lessons. They also auditioned and did get cast in operas. They did participate less in operas as they had student teaching etc as upper classmen (when you have more opportunities in opera). Some have/are going on to VP master programs so obviously they got good training. Others have decided that they want to teach in high schools and got jobs. I know one Music Ed major from Luther in Iowa who did his Masters at U of MN and is now teaching in MN. He felt he needed his Masters at some pt to teach (seems a requirement in MN now) so he went straight to it. So again good questions to ask schools - where do you students go for grad school and why.

In general I think the private lessons with a good teacher if you are music ed major can prepare you for VP at the Masters level if you work hard and have talent. People enter VP at the Masters levels with BAs, BSs, and BMs so I wouldn’t worry too much that it’s not possible. It would just be finding the right setting/teacher for her to continue growth (and honestly it’s not a needle in the haystack - there are many good alternatives). Some schools like IU (big university programs), focus more a soloist voice and can be quite competitive in getting cast. A school like St. Olaf (an LAC) can be more holistic and inclusive for kids looking for more variety and exploration - solo voice and choir and education with no grad students to compete with. So ask the schools/teachers where their graduates go for grad school and what programs.

Going from VP to Music Ed in grad school isn’t something I understand so I can’t answer that. But talking with some schools should help you understand that.

One word of caution (and I don’t mean this is you): Be sure she really is interested in teaching at the high school level. That it’s not some sort of fall back. Teaching (like most careers) is a calling. If you don’t have it, you may regret your choice of program for college. I think if you want to do VP, do VP. If she thinks she sincerely would like to teach or honestly consider it then that’s fine.

And your D is still young…so a good time to start exploring the options for her!

Hope this helps.

Again, thank you everyone for your advice and input. I should have mentioned in my original post we lived in CA. I am not opposed to going out of state though it makes more practical sense to stay here. I know some states have reciprocal agreements with respect to teaching credentials. Here we are looking at Chapman, Biola, UCI, Azusa Pacific, Vanguard, Cal State Long Beach, Cal State Fullerton, University of the Pacific, Point Loma Nazarene. The only out-of-state school we are looking at now is University of Arizona. We were considering University of Miami as we have family there but D really wants to stay local if she can. We were considering Northridge but admissions told me it is tiered now and harder to get into if one doesn’t live within the area. Fullerton requires a pre-screening video now so that tells me they are getting a lot more applicants than before. Fullerton is also impacted in general as a university. My daughter had a voice lesson with one of the professors at UCLA and from what I understand they have gotten even more selective. Chapman is her first choice and they do offer a double major in performance/music ed. I just want to make sure she applies to enough schools but I have the tendency do overdue things. RIght now she has 10 on her list whittled down from 16. UCLA and UCI would be reach schools.

Meant USC not UCI

Forgot to mention University of Redlands as another choice.

Just because UCLA has only 32 VP,students (undergrad and grad), they can afford to be one of the most selective vp programs in the country. In addition to U of A, have you considered ASU? They have some awesome voice teachers, a much more comprehensive SOM than U of A and combined with Barrett Honors college she can not only get a great music education but serious merit aid.( I know of two ASU vp undergrads who went on to Yale for their MM.)
Chapman is generous as well and probably an excellent choice for your D.

never thought of Arizona State. From the little I read, I thought U of A had a better music program. I am going to look into that right away. Her best friend is going there though not a good reason to pick a school, it doesn’t hurt. Arizona is relatively close to CA as things go. I think she would sooner get into UCI than UCLA and UCI would have been a reach. That is why I did not even include it on our list. Thanks again.

I know what your point was and I wasn’t contradicting it. Your point was already clear in your first message. My point was that it’s a general recommendation that is always made on cc and I just chose this thread to provide an alternative viewpoint that may be helpful for others and perhaps even for the OP.

I wanted to explain why the standard CC response is to go to a music ed school in the state you want to teach in and. in addition, you want to go to a music ed school with a good reputation. Yes, you can go out of state and still pass the certification requirements with extra effort. However, most public school teaching job resumes are reviewed at the local level. Many times there are hundreds of resumes that come in for an opening. Often the prescreen will go with graduates of music schools that they are familiar with over unknown schools. Also, alumni networks help by maintaining good relationships with the music depts and will alert you to openings available. During his undergrad years, son went to a local district’s hiring seminar and they blatantly stated that they only looked for resumes from 3 instate schools and one out of state school that was close by. The district that hired him has 60-70% of the teachers from one instate public followed by an instate private for about 20% with the rest from a few other schools. In addition, it was an alum who worked at the district who alerted him to the opening. In today’s competitive job market, you want to be able to have all the help you can get.

@thevoicemom it’s only a 4 1/2 hour drive ----schedule a visit and a few lessons at ASU. I have PM’d you two teacher recs. The SOM facilities are really nice and the department is friendly. While you are there go on tour with a Barrett student to get the inside scoop on Barrett as well. D has two friends here in Ca who did undergrad VP music education at ASU and both ended up teaching in the California public school system. From another point of view—D did her BM in VP and her MM in VP (no music ed). In California as long as you have your MM from a good school, getting a teaching certificate in CA is not difficult. Before D left for Europe, she had no trouble getting teaching positions (both private and public) and in fact already had a private studio numbering around 20-25 students.

Thank you so much! I really appreciate this. I did not know she could be a VP major and get a teaching credential. She plans on going to graduate school so getting an MM would not be an issue. I will explain this to her. Your daughter is an inspiration! I will share her experience with mine. BTW, how do I access PMs? I know how to sent them but once sent, I can never find the responses. I checked the letter icon on the top of this page but did not seeyour PM
Thanks.

See you found it!
I would never actively discourage a student from getting an undergrad in music education—at least with that you have a very good chance for a job right out of school. Especially since she really wants to teach K-12. And if she changes her mind and her voice continues to develop well it would not be an impediment to going on to grad school for voice. Just wanted to point out another path!

Agree with the above. Either way she goes (VP or MusED), she should be fine. It’s now about finding some good fits for school and teacher. Over the next 2 years, she’ll surely get some clarity.