Music Education plus Academics

<p>My D is a junior looking for a combination of strong music and strong academics. She is interested in music ed, which seems to require a very different program than performance. She also may be interested in double majoring in music and Spanish. She is a flute player (very competitive, I know), with peripheral interests in keyboard percussion, voice, piano, and composition. She does not want the concentration on performance that so many of the music programs seems to have. She is extremely strong academically and is interested in continuing with challenging academic studies as well as starting on music ed. </p>

<p>I'm having trouble identifying schools offering music ed that also have excellent academics, especially in the small LAC environment she would prefer, and I'm really having difficulty finding ways to properly evaluate the music schools. For instance, she adored Swarthmore, and I agree that academically and culturally it would fit her beautifully, but I'm not sure if the music department will really put her on the road she wants. And I'm not quite sure how to find out, either.</p>

<p>She is quite interested in Lawrence; does anyone have a current opinion on their conservatory? Oberlin, of course, is in the mix (although they require a BM in either Performance or Composition prior to their Ed MMA), and I like Michigan and Northwestern too. Any other current opinions or suggestions? Does anyone know if any Ivies have decent music departments? Does Indiana have good academics if you're a music school student? Are there other resources out there that can help me evaluate the music departments?</p>

<p>Thanks for any help any of you can give me!</p>

<p>Ithaca has a strong music education program and decent academics.</p>

<p>Hit reply in error. Please ignore</p>

<p>Off the top of my head, you can find some top-flight music ed and higher level academics (often in conjunction with the honors program)at a number of the state flagships I/U Jacobs, UMich/Ann Arbor, UMaryland to name a few. Other options are Rutgers/Mason Gross, James Madison U, the SUNYs (Potsdam and Fredonia).</p>

<p>I’d really begin the search for music ed at your own state’s flagship, as it is often the most cost effective. Most will go for an MM down the road, and you might want to consider the dollars saved now be put to use for grad school.</p>

<p>Among the privates, NYU, Ithaca, Oberlin, Lawrence, Baldwin-Wallace, Duquesne, Depauw, DePaul, St. Olaf, Otterbein come to mind. Hartt has an excellent program (and flute faculty), but some call U/Hartford the academics “light”. Again, the honors programs at many of those I mention is an option to consider.</p>

<p>I’d be wary of Swarthmore insofar as there is no specific music ed major, but a contract or special purpose major, “music and education”. For want of a better word, it sounds like it might be a “cobbled together” program, and I would seriously investigate the nature, including faculty, course work, peers/peer level, student teaching, methods and observation classwork and settings. It may be a solid program, but music ed is a highly structured and sequenced curriculum, designed to achieve licensure and certification, and I just don’t see the value or the benefit in building an individually focused degree program when so many very fine programs are already in place. Just my $.02 for what it’s worth.</p>

<p>Some background reading as general music ed need too know info, as well as some experiences and some possible schools to look into:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/812256-northeast-schools-music-education.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/812256-northeast-schools-music-education.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/795610-specific-schools-music-education-programs.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/795610-specific-schools-music-education-programs.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/693563-music-education-degrees-searching-college.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/693563-music-education-degrees-searching-college.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/668208-school-search-music-teacher-education-instrumental.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/668208-school-search-music-teacher-education-instrumental.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/655492-music-education-these-schools.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/655492-music-education-these-schools.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/580421-lessons-music-education-major.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/580421-lessons-music-education-major.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/469377-music-education.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/469377-music-education.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/470769-music-education-question-about-student-teaching.html?highlight=music+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/470769-music-education-question-about-student-teaching.html?highlight=music+education&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/705998-rowan-v-tcnj-music-ed-violin.html?highlight=music+ed[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/705998-rowan-v-tcnj-music-ed-violin.html?highlight=music+ed&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/682965-undergrad-music-ed-any-other-recommendations.html?highlight=music+ed[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/682965-undergrad-music-ed-any-other-recommendations.html?highlight=music+ed&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/364070-music-ed-schools-boston-ma.html?highlight=music+ed[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/364070-music-ed-schools-boston-ma.html?highlight=music+ed&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/235446-music-ed-public-vs-private.html?highlight=music+ed[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/235446-music-ed-public-vs-private.html?highlight=music+ed&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/840639-nyu-stein-vs-potsdam-crane-music-ed.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/840639-nyu-stein-vs-potsdam-crane-music-ed.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Another source of info are the Master list threads, <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/817953-master-list-acceptances-fall-2010-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/817953-master-list-acceptances-fall-2010-a.html&lt;/a&gt; and there’s a link to the previous year’s version near the beginning of each. You can scan the list for discipline and school, and you’ll see a number of music ed majors across various disciplines at a wide variety of places. Look for past posts under those user names, and I’d suggest pm’ing any specific poster if you have questions. Most here are happy to share insight and experiences.</p>

<p>Come back with specific or general questions, and I’ll do my best to point you in a few directions.</p>

<p>As an added thought, Hopkins/Peabody and Miami/Frost offer both music ed and outstanding academics.</p>

<p>top LACs that might work are Amherst or Smith (via the multi-college consortium there), Williams (very strong music department, at least academically); Pomona (also a consortium of several LAC’s) - the point being that if you are looking for an LAC apart from Oberlin or Bard that have conservatories, you might do best where there is a consortium of schools. Perhaps Swarthmore students work with Haverford and Bryn Mawr for music? Worth investigating.</p>

<p>mamenyu, Haverford serves as the music department for Bryn Mawr [Department</a> of Music :: Haverford College](<a href=“http://www.haverford.edu/music/]Department”>http://www.haverford.edu/music/), and again music education (the op’s specific program) is not a degree option, nor is it at Pomona or Williams from a quick survey reading of the departmental websites. </p>

<p>The programs might well provide the general background in theory, piano skills, private instrumental instruction, music history and elementary composition, but applied educational and music teaching methodologies, observation coursework, practicums and a student teaching experience would be lacking. The resulting BA would in most cases require additional coursework at a later date to meet most states’ certification requirements for k-12 educators. I would recomend these programs as possibilities for a performance, composition, or theory/history path if one wants a strong LAC experience, but not for music education. If the path is a BA in a music discipline and an MM in music ed, then yes, they would be viable options but still might limit initial employment opportunities. </p>

<p>It’s not a degree path that should be taken without the support and structure of a well established department with a history of producing highly qualified and sought after music educators.</p>

<p>all true, but I suspect the OP is just starting out and somehow I suspect that a student very attracted to Swarthmore (assuming it is a realistic option) and “Ivy’s” would not necessarily be wise to forgo the educational level and opportunities there in favor of Ithaca college because she may want to study music ed - wouldn’t it also make sense to consider going for the great academics (and some good music academics and ok performance) at Swarthmore or its peer and consider Music Ed later? Oberlin does not seem a good choice unless she can get into the conservatory - but she doesn’t want to major in flute performance, so that doesn’t seem realistic.
The other potential issue, though, is that all LAC’s may not be optimal for Spanish if the student is very advanced at the outset, because the departments usually only have a few professors - larger schools with graduate programs could be a better option in that case.</p>

<p>Not an LAC, but UNC Chapel Hill is really gaining ground in music. The faculty is quite impressive and they seem determined to be a “player.” </p>

<p>[Home</a> — UNC Music Department](<a href=“http://music.unc.edu/]Home”>http://music.unc.edu/)</p>

<p>I agree with mamenyu’s last post and I noticed myself that some of the LAC’s that have been mentioned are less academically rigorous (?) than I would expect that a student interested in and competitive for admission to schools at level of Swarthmore or ivy league schools. Those mentioned are fine schools but perhaps not the best match for this particular student’s interests. Just as an aside, I have noticed that my own student’s high school teachers (including the music teachers) who have been the most interesting/inspiring have been those who loved learning and had spent time getting a well-rounded education themselves either in college or through self-directed learning (and even traveling and getting some life experiences) before teaching.</p>

<p>Again, it depends if the focus is to be music ed, or high level academics. It’s not likely that a you will find and exceptional strong LAC with a very solid music ed department. Oberlin had a music ed undergad program, but switched to a BM/MM combo. Lawrence is a very solid option worth looking into. The suggestions I put forth were for music ed strengths, including some university programs, both public and private and suggesting the honors programs for the stronger academics.</p>

<p>When we were in search mode, I asked about Sunderman at Gettysburg. It’s a strong LAC, and my friend said they were really highlighting the conservatory on their visits. It’s not that far from Swarthmore, so might be worth a look.</p>

<p>Sunderman is a relatively new conservatory within a well respected small college, Gettysburg College. The school is, naturally, very well thought of for their history programs, the location is great(easy by car and several regional airports-Hagerstown and Harrisburg, as well as Philly/DC/Baltimore) and the campus is very pretty.</p>

<p>It’s interesting that the rest of you are following exactly the same thought pattern that my daughter and I have been going through. The question is precisely the balance - or the choice - between music ed and liberal arts. And I admit, my concern is that since she would, in fact, be competitive for admission to Swarthmore, following a purely music ed path seems to me to minimize many other options, some of which she may not even know she’s interested in yet. But music ed is such a specific and rigorous program of its own, it isn’t really clear to me whether it can be pursued at a graduate level, assuming a strong general music BA. An ordinary master’s program doesn’t seem to cover the requirements. Any opinions on the grad school route as a possibility? And how many additional years it might take?</p>

<p>Grabrams, my advice is offered on the premise of your initial post that the requirements for music ed outweigh the desire for strong (liberal arts) academics within the LAC environment. And my thoughts are also predicated that if your d is competitive for admission to Swarthmore, then she would be competitive for many honors levels options at a good number of the institutions I’ve mentioned or linked. I’m also of the mind that seeking a music ed degree should not be a fallback position. One needs to want to teach (music) in a k-12 environment. That is what a music ed degree provides the specific background and training for.</p>

<p>Without knowing your level of understanding of the music ed curriculum, it is a highly sequenced series of coursework beginning in the freshman year in music theory, history, basic piano/keyboard applied instrumental/vocal teaching methods, some basic conducting, composition, music specific and general ed teaching coursework and psychology, practicums and off-site observation classwork, and a student teaching semester. Add in the institution specific requirements of private instrument instruction, studio, and performance. Round it out with the general academic requirements for the bachelors, and specific state mandated coursework for initial certification and there is not a lot of “fat” in a four year path for in depth secondary pursuit particularly in the non-music upper division courses. The BM, BS variants are the most intensive, and the BA MAY allow a bit more time as there are usually less music specific degree requirements. There are previous threads on the differences between the degree types.</p>

<p>Let me also point out that a good music ed program admit process includes an interview/essay evaluation which helps to “weed out” potential applicants who are not committed to music education, regardless of musical ability or academic achievement. It is not unusual for a “weaker” candidate with a strong commitment to music teaching and the demonstrated skills to be admitted over a more academically qualified but uncommitted music ed candidate.</p>

<p>Having said that, I understand that some students need to explore other areas, or need a highly stimulating academic environment. Kids are unsure of what they want to do as a career, and many do change major paths, some multiple times. Just remember that it is easier to transfer out of a music degree pursuit than into one once matriculated. (For reference, mine was a dual perf/ed candidate, who found out very late in the game he did not want to teach in a k-12 environment, and opted out of the ed portion a few credits shy of completion, finishing with “just” the performance BM. (Plenty of specific detail in my past posts.)</p>

<p>Again, strong academic LAC’s and smaller universities with solid music ed options are Oberlin, Lawrence. Consider Temple, Shenandoah, St. Olaf, Gettysburg, Northwestern, NYU for starters. Examine your own state flagship for both the music ed/academic honors options. Don’t discount a program like Swarthmore, but take the time to fully understand the degree offerings and coursework that will comprise their music ed path if one exists. Compare it to the degree requirements at a couple of the options I’ve cited. You will see what may or may not be missing. Talk to faculty, department heads, and have them provide a list of students with music (ed) degrees who have gone on to teaching/masters level work in music ed. I would try and correspond directly with those students and gain from their experiences.</p>

<p>As for the MA/MM path, you will need to look at specific admissions parameters for each institution. They are varied. There are programs that will only accept BM/BS music degree holders with certified teaching licenses, those that will accept a BM/BA in a music discipline, those that will accept a degree holder in another discipline with an appropriate music or education background. The amount of time will vary based on the credentials the candidate brings into the program. It could be as little as three summers, as long as two (or more) years.</p>

<p>While this is not specific to your question, it may be worth a read <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/750560-help-finding-music-gradute-program-student-weaker-qualifications.html?highlight=Western+connecticut[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/750560-help-finding-music-gradute-program-student-weaker-qualifications.html?highlight=Western+connecticut&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>You may also want to look through the MENC and MTNA, maybe ASTA websites as they have links dedicated to prospective music ed students
[MENC</a> Forums / Masters in Ed vs. Music Ed](<a href=“http://www.menc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2818]MENC”>http://www.menc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2818)</p>

<p>And as you mention a possible dual major in Spanish, she may want to investigate the possibility of a dual spanish/music ed path resulting in teaching certifcation for both. There will be some overlapping requirements, and could very well be achieved in four years. It might be the best of two worlds, and expand potential employment options. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/697348-music-education-major.html?highlight=spanish[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/697348-music-education-major.html?highlight=spanish&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Examine your options, but look deeply.</p>

<p>I’m sorry I missed the Ivy reference in an initial reading. As for the Ivy’s being options for a comprehensive music BA, I would recommend a few for both strong music and top tier academics. Yale, Princeton, Harvard ,Columbia, maybe UPenn. There’s also the affiliated masters program which you can read about here [Music</a> and Music Education@ Teachers College ::Welcome](<a href=“http://www.tc.edu/a%26h/MusicEd/]Music”>Music & Music Education | Arts & Humanities | Teachers College, Columbia University). To the best of my recollection none offer a dedicated music ed degree option, although there will be a thorough grounding in theory, history, and other music academic aspects. Lesson policies and ensemble opportunities are institution specific, so it pays to examine each thoroughly.</p>

<p>The others can be spotty for peer level and depth of instrumentation for a student used to playing at a conservatory level, or may be vastly disappointed with performance and ensemble opportunities. There are past threads I’d be happy to pull up if you can’t locate them.</p>

<p>Again, the Master lists are your friend here as there a number of active posters at Yale, Harvard, Columbia who are pursuing music.</p>

<p>AsterMom has a d attending Lawrence as a violin performance major. You might want to pm or email her for specific input.</p>

<p>Hello all,
Has anyone had any experience with the College of New Jersey and music education?
My daughter has auditioned at Providence, Ithaca, URI and will audition at Connecticut, Hofstra and New Hampshire.
Any information would be appreciated.</p>

<p>DS has a very good friend who is a music ed grad from College of New Jersey. The friend reports that the school was terrific in every way…both music education and academics.</p>

<p>Thank you all, this is very helpful. I may be back with specific questions when I get through some of the reading material Violadad has provided! We are also planning to visit Lawrence in February, and I’m trying to get in a visit to either Michigan or Indiana at the same time so she can get a better sense of what the really big music schools can offer that an LAC can’t - just to try to make the choices a little clearer.</p>

<p>Thank you all, this is very helpful. I may be back with specific questions when I get through some of the reading material Violadad has provided! We are also planning to visit Lawrence in February, and I’m trying to get in a visit to either Michigan or Indiana at the same time so she can get a better sense of what the really big music schools can offer that an LAC can’t - just to try to make the choices a little clearer.
Grabrams is online now</p>