<p>I am starting this thread for all who are interested in discussing thoughts or concerns about studying a classical instrument in universities and conservatories. This was a discussion originally begun in the Parents forum in this thread: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=8555%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=8555</a></p>
<p>Brava, Julia!</p>
<p>Thanks for starting the new thread. Can we consider vocalists also here? My d, a soprano, just got waitlisted for the summer program at tanglewood, accepted at the advanced vocal program at Interlochen, and is still waiting to hear about Oberlin's summer vocal program for hs'ers...we are also getting ready to go out and visit some colleges (she's a hs junior) so she can compare LAC vs conservatory vs big u with school of fine arts... so far we have gone to BU (she loved it, I hated it) boston conservatory and barnard (she's interested in the possibility of going to barnard AND julliard; they have a double degree program, but you have to apply and get admitted to both to do it). When we got the news tanglewood had waitlisted her, it made me think okay, she should probably just go to a good strong academic lac, forget the dream of being a great singer... but then interlochen said yes, and made us realize that one rejection does not mean she's not good, just that there's a ton of competition out there, and sometimes there will be room for her and sometimes not!</p>
<p>Individual singers appeal to different people, and the spread of "winners" is really huge. There is almost no competition if the judges are changed, the results will change. Seldom is there an overwhelming favorite. It takes a tough hide, which is good, because she will see if she is up to the stress of rejection. Only if she "has" to sing does she have any chance at all. So welcome all the challenges, it is a necessary part of the process. Good luck.</p>
<p>My soprano daughter also enjoys Biology a great deal. I may suggest that instead of pursuing vocal performance she go pre-med and research surgical procedures to convert sopranos to tenors. All our daughters' audition success rates would increase twentyfold and the patent on the procedure would secure my wife's and my retirement :-)</p>
<p>Hey, my husband is a patent attorney - I'm sure he'd be happy to help you secure the patent on the soprano-to-tenor conversion process. Just as long as he doesn't have the opportunity to try it out on our daughter, who has consistently confused all her voice teachers as to just exactly how she should be classified. Is she a soprano? An alto? A mezzo? Who knows, who cares? Certainly not DD - give her music, she'll sing it, and if it goes out of her range she knows it's the wrong piece for her. Ah, if only the rest of life was so easy.</p>
<p>Hi. I'm new to this forum and have just been accepted into a BM Vocal Performance program. I have been studying private voice since age 13 and have a legit soprano. I have scored superior ratings in state sponsored competitions and evaluations.</p>
<p>I am very excited to begin my collegiate music studies but don't have any piano experience and am concerned I'll be very far behind. I must have done well on the theory test because I got accepted, but I think I'm a little weak in theory.</p>
<p>Anybody have any words of wisdom for me?</p>
<p>Congratulations. You will need to study piano for your degree. You will also need some piano skills for successful theory study. Singers are often weaker theory students than the instrumentalists in the class. The best thing you could do is take piano lessons this summer. You will be glad you did it, guaranteed. Good luck.</p>
<p>Hello, I'm also interested in majoring in vocal performance, and I was accepted to a bunch of different programs. I have until tomorrow afternoon (Saturday at the very latest) to pick one because of scholarship deadlines, so I would really appreciate any insights any of you might have in terms of selecting a college.</p>
<p>I put a list of the colleges that I've been accpeted to and the primary ones that I am considering here:</p>
<p>I would be eternally grateful if some of you would check that out. Thanks!</p>
<p>My dd is in the same boat as Clara87. Can you give me a ballpark as to how much piano she should try and get in this summer so as to be competitive in August?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>At this stage, it is not a matter of being competitive, but rather being able to survive in required theory and piano classes. Most kids who are music majors have some piano background. While it is certainly possible to pass theory without keyboard visualization, it is easier to already understand how scales, keyboards, etc. are set up. Your music majors-to-be would want to find a teacher who knows they need the theory as well as keyboard skills. Some teachers might even offer a separate class, in addition to actual lessons.</p>
<p>Some summer music camps also offer theory classes, though so much time is taken with other activities, it will not move very fast. If there is a local university, check to see if there is a piano pedagogy program or class piano program, perhaps those teachers might be available who would understand more about what knowledge skills are needed. Be in contact with Music Teachers Association for your state, and they can help you find local teachers who are good with theory. Ask about this when you call prospective teachers, do not assume they emphasize theory. </p>
<p>I cannot overstate how important this is. I have had very talented university students not make it because of theory and piano requirements. Singers tend to have less general musicianship background and are more often really behind the rest of the class. If you can start now, do it, at least do the homework to line someone up with the necessary emphasis. </p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Thank you so much Lorelei for urging voice students to get some music theory and piano before going to college. I used to teach college level music theory classes. The students who were at the top of the pack in both the written and aural theory classes were the pianists. The other instrumental music majors were in the middle and the voice students were virtually always at the bottom of the heap. At the time I taught, there were voice majors accepted as freshmen who could not even read music. Of course they were at a tremendous disadvantage. I had the sad job of informing the musically illiterate students that if they were not able to read music fairly well by the around the 3rd week of the semester, they would fail my class. Even the voice students who came to the university able to read a bit still found themselves at the bottom of the pack. I have wished so many times that H.S. choral teachers and private voice teachers would stress to their young singers how critical general musicianship skills are. They can make or break you in a college music curriculum.</p>
<p>If all you can do is take some private piano/theory lessons the summer before your freshman year, then at least do that. You can learn a lot in that short amount of time. The basics are not really difficult. I have 7 year old private piano students who can tell you what a I chord or a V7 chord are and can recognize intervals from unisons through 6ths both aurally and on paper. All of my middle school aged private students can tell you the order of the sharps and flats, name both major and minor keys given a key signature, and can recognize root position triads and their inversions. (I have to wonder how many of the H.S. aged singers reading this thread even understand what I just said.) </p>
<p>As Lorelei says, before signing on with a piano teacher, be sure to find out whether or not he or she emphasizes theory. Many do, but not all. I'm a stickler with my private students. They have to understand what they are playing! However, I can attest to the fact that not all teachers deal with theory. I get transfer students all the time who I feel have not gotten the proper musical background.</p>
<p>Please, please start as soon as you can to get some piano and theory instruction. You'll be very glad you did :)</p>
<p>Thanks for the advice, although it wasn't really the question I was asking. I am a music major myself, so I've been able to teach my younger dd piano. My older dd, however, was never interested and is now concerned about college. She has a pretty good command of first year theory, including notes, scales, chords, etc. Her voice teacher has always been a stickler in making sure she knew exactly what the composer intended in the pieces of music she was singing. As a matter of fact, she started formal lessons with me today (after realizing the mistake she's made in not studying earlier), and I was quite surprised at the amount of theory she was familiar with. She has also sung in choruses both in school and with a regional opera company, and that has helped her theory. She also has an excellent ear, which, of course, helps tremendously.</p>
<p>My question was to how much theory would be expected of a first year student? Are we talking basic note values, time signatures, Circle of 5ths, chords, scales, etc., or are we talking writing music from hearing it?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>MidgetMom -- depends on what school it is. You can test out of classes into different levels as a freshman, but some schools have higher level theory/ET classes than others. For example, NEC students in Theory IV are learning things Juilliard students in Theory Fundamentals (which is lower than Theory I) are learning.</p>
<p>Midgetmom,</p>
<p>I agree with Helloangel that how much theory is covered in freshman level classes depends upon the school. I would guess that a fairly typical written theory course would include an introduction to the basic properties and notation of pitch and rhythm; tonality, key, mode, and scales; formal characteristics of melody, including motive and phrase; melodic cadences; chord structure; non-chord tones (decorative pitches); homophonic textures; harmonic relationships; harmonic rhythm; harmonic cadences; secondary dominants; tonality change;and binary and ternary form. </p>
<p>A typical aural theory course would include recognizing and notating intervals, notating rhythms minus pitch, notating simple single-line melodies, notating 2 line melodies, recognizing root position and inverted triads and 7th chords, notating short melodies with block chord accompaniment, and sight-singing. Most freshman aural theory courses include heavy doses of sight-singing and melodic dictation. As I hope I hinted above, the difficulty of the melodic dictation increases throughout the year. Students begin by notating pitch (simple intervals) and rhythm separately. Then they are asked to notate single line melodies, two line melodies, and finally melodies with block chord accompaniment. The pitch and rhythmic difficulty of the examples and the length of the examples to be notated increases as time goes by.</p>
<p>I think that a student who comes to college able to read music fluently, who has some knowledge of key signatures and simple tertian harmony will do just fine. Pianists do have a big head start because they have been reading in two clefs since the earliest days of their music study, they play melody and harmony simultaneously, and most piano teachers have included some study of theory. It's hard not to talk a little about theory when one teaches piano. It helps piano students' playing skills tremendously to be able to recognize the chords and scales that they play in their pieces. </p>
<p>Midget, it sounds like your DD will be just fine. The best thing is that she's decided to take some lessons from you this spring and summer. I know how hard it can be to teach your own child. My own college freshman (a MT major for those readers who don't know me) has much less piano/theory background than I would like. She watched the piano battles that went on between me and her older sister, who took 4 years of lessons with me. Younger D, who's nearly 6 years younger than big sis, happily started piano lessons with me when she was 7. It lasted only 3 months. She was an excellent student. Three months after beginning piano lessons,we went on a vacation trip for a couple of weeks. I didn't resume lessons immediately upon our return (I got distracted with other stuff). When I announced we were resuming lessons a couple of weeks later, D2 burst into tears and told me that she did not want to play the piano; she was a dancer. I decided I was not willing to fight with a 2nd child over piano lessons. By that time D2 was telling me that she wanted to be a professional dancer when she grew up. My husband and I thought it just might be a possibility for her. We told her many times over the years that all the best dancers studied music - after all, it's what one dances to! We let her know that Baryshnikov started as a pianist and didn't take his 1st ballet class 'till he was 12. My D acknowledged that studying music was a good idea, she just couldn't abide by the idea of studying music with me. </p>
<p>D2 started playing French horn in middle school. She was an excellent horn player - seemed to have great potential. However, by that time she'd discovered MT. As with so many kids, D2 wanted to carve out a niche that was different from mom, dad, and sister. My husband and I are both musicians. D1, who fought with me over the piano, took up the trombone (her dad's instrument) and majored in trombone performance in college. When it became evident that D2 was serious about a career on the stage I urged her to try to fit in some piano. The message got through when someone from the U. of Michigan told her that there was a piano component to their MT auditions when she was a sophomore. However, D2 never "found" the time for piano lessons. She acknowledged that they'd be a very good idea, but she was adamant that she would not take them from me! </p>
<p>I have elected to stick with the idea that my D2 will be just fine in her piano and theory classes. She sightsings very well - much better than many of the college kids I've taught. She has a wonderful ear. She reads treble clef fluently, though she's slower with bass clef. She knows less about theory than I'd like, but I know that she will have no trouble keeping up in her music classes next year. (At her school, BFA MT's don't take theory and piano until their 2nd year.) I'm sticking with the idea that it's impossible to do it all in H.S. There are only so many hours in the week. D2 was juggling 5 ballet classes, private tap lessons, jazz dance classes, acting classes, stage combat, private voice lessons, and vocal coaching sessions in addition to rehearsals and performances and her schoolwork. Throughout most of H.S. she had dance classes and some sort of private lesson every weekday and arts classes from 9:00 to 5:00 every Saturday. Many of her lessons were continued through the summers and she always had a summer performing gig. She did manage to spend some time at the piano with an adult piano method book I purchased for her the summer before her senior year and last summer. However, she is by no means a skilled pianist!</p>
<p>Midget, I know that your D's background is similar to my child's. She started as a dancer. When my D started working with CCM's former MT music director the summer before her senior year, he told her that he loved to work with dancers. He said they made some of the best students because they are so disciplined. He told D that dancers are used to working (not socializing) when they come to class. Midget, your D is very bright, she's disciplined and it sounds like she reads music well. With a few piano lessons from you over the next few months, I'm sure she'll be just fine.</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind words and explanations. The theory you outlined is about what I considered to be "basic" and I don't think my dd will have much trouble in her first "real" theory class. Thanks again.</p>
<p>Just know that many schools have their own theory vocabulary and system, and they may believe a student will struggle within their system if they have not learned it from the basics. So it may not mean anything perjorative if a student is placed in freshman theory, regardless of their background. Many conservatories/universities do not accept AP music theory credit, it is meaningless out of context of their system. Good luck.</p>
<p>Glad you made a decision. Congratulations. UCLA is a terrific school with many many opportunities. I will tell you that that 1/2 scholarship to BU was your most generous award. With tuition of $30,000 per year, that would be $60,000 for four years. Was that a combination of music merit and academic merit? I only ask because my son got has a $10,000 music merit scholarship there and we understand that to be a very generous music only award.</p>
<p>Thanks a lot; I'm really looking forward to UCLA.</p>
<p>Actually, the scholarship I had at BU wasn't for music at all, though I did get some very small award from the music department ($1000 a year or something like that). I was a University Scholar, which means I received their second highest academic merit award, and thats where the half-tuition came from.</p>
<p>Does anybody familiar with the instrumental music world actually know any recent graduates who are employed as symphony performers?</p>