<p>Good to see you posting again rlmcmillan. I did think of your son for this question! Tufts’ program really sounds wonderful from everything I’ve read of it.</p>
<p>Thanks, SpiritManager. As I recall Bard’s science programs are good too though don’t recall whether they offer an undergraduate degree in neuroscience.</p>
<p>NYU might be another place to look. I know a couple of junior faculty members there, one in the Neural Sciences Dept. and one a cognitive psychologist. They are both outstanding and you’d have no problem continuing in music at NYU.</p>
<p>Compmom, it is a terrible way to live! I try my best not to look for an essentially “easy” school, but the fact remains that if my ultimate goal is medicine, then I should find an area of study that puts me in the best position to get accepted into medical school. So, when it comes to looking at a school/program, it wouldn’t hurt to ask about the average gpa; I’ll probably stray away from something with an average gpa of 2.7, but if the amount of work I need to put in to do well is the only factor that determines my success, then I have no problem. I’m not saying I want a 4.0 placed on my lap, I just want it to be within a reasonable reach. However, I really do appreciate the warning. </p>
<p>On that note…
rlmcmillan, Do you mind if I ask your son’s gpa (lololo)? Sounds like another great program. And thanks, I now have another book to read!</p>
<p>I know this isn’t a science thread, but this one has been generating the most responses:
I want to do something neuroscience-related but math/physics oriented. Should I look towards neuroscience or neurobiology majors? If its neurobiology, then my options are increased greatly because neurobiology is just a concentration of a biology major.</p>
<p>Where are people learning that you must have a 3.8 GPA to get to medical school? What a scary thought. Does that mean that we are only admitting students to medical school who are not willing to challenge themselves or take risks or push themselves to learn material that is perhaps a bit challenging for them? If somebody who is pre-med decides to take a very challenging class and gets a B, does that mean they should give up on their dream of going to medical school? I hope not. If so that is terrible. I would not want somebody like that taking care of me if I were ill. Also I doubt it is true. I suspect that the best medical schools in the country do holistic reviews of their applicants and what matters most is references from professors who know the student well and who the student has worked for. I suspect that medical schools want to see that a student has pushed themselves intellectually and socially. But they also are looking for students who are going to make good compassionate physicians. </p>
<p>Also think carefully about why you want to go into medicine? Do you want to do research? Surgery? Clinical work? Are you interested in the human condition? The medical field is changing and depending on what interests you it might be that you don’t need to get or shouldn’t get an MD. For example many who were thinking they might be pre-med have decided to go into nursing. These are not people who are taking an easier path. But rather these are people who realized that their focus and interest is in primary care and clinical work, and have been told by doctors that the future of primary care will be with nurse-practitioners/doctors of nursing rather than with MDs.</p>
<p>On a separate note: THANKS to whoever posted about the addition to the TUFTS faculty. My son is attending NEC and tells us he has no interest in pursuing a dual degree. But he has promised us that he will take classes at Tufts and Northeastern and make an effort to expand his knowledge base and be exposed to knew ideas. He is curious kid who last summer, while at Berklee spent a lot of time talking with us about his interest in string theory and physics. He read the Patel’s book and was very excited by some of the ideas in it. I am going to forward his web page to our son and hope our son takes a bite</p>
<p>One should agree that these days, medical schools are competitive enough that having a high gpa isn’t a must, but certainly a very nice thing to have. I’m not looking for the easiest major in the world because after all, nothing is ever easy if one wants a 3.9+, but rather I want to be in a situation where a high gpa is within reach. If I find out that the average gpa is 1.0 somewhere, the chances of doing well, despite the amount of work one puts in, are very low. That is all I want to find out. If I go to a place like Tufts, I’m not going to expect life to be a walk in the park, but I’m not going to want to be in a situation where, no matter how hard I work, success is out of reach.</p>
<p>I would still like to know about your interests and goals with music. Are you interested in academic music (theory, history, musicology etc.) or mainly performance? What is your instrument and level of play?</p>
<p>I have posted this many times, but will again: a few years back, I read that, as a group, music majors had the highest rate of acceptance to med school at 66%.</p>
<p>Many, many students come on this forum with plans to go to medical school. Many change their minds in college. The job market is complex, and specific professional goals can be a way to order the chaos. But you can also be a little ahead of yourself.</p>
<p>As mentioned before, you can also consider nursing or the new field of physician’s assistant if you love working with patients.</p>
<p>It’s great to look at schools with good programs in what, right now, feels like your major interest. I recently tutored a student with similar goals for neuroscience undergrad, then med school. He applied to Cornell, U. of Penn., Brown and Amherst, as I remember. We have all mentioned Tufts. Our family has had experience with Tufts as well, and would agree with other posters on the quality of music and science programs there.</p>
<p>Of course I understand that you want a good GPA to get into med school right now. But the GPA should be a byproduct of interest and ability, wherever you go, and not the goal. Top schools are full of kids overly focused on GPA and it makes for an environment that is not healthy. Focus on process not product, in other words.</p>
<p>I don’t think therefore that average GPA is a legitimate way to choose schools. Look for quality curriculum, faculty and courses. Visit campus and talk to students there. Check out sciences, including labs, and also music courses and extracurriculars. Think about location, size and try out the vibe.</p>
<p>It is good to stay flexible and open about what you want to do. Overplanning can actually inhibit opportunities. Good luck.</p>
<p>p.s. RL McMillan and Spirit Manager both have gifted kids doing double degrees and can be great resources…</p>
<p>Compmom hit what I think is the key phrase here: “gifted kids”. Not to say the OP is not gifted (seems like everyone is these days!) But there is a level of giftedness where no amount of knowledge is too much for the person, and where a multitude of complicated concepts are absorbed quickly. Learning is the passion. I possess a professional degree, and I am not one of these gifted people, even though I would consider myself successful. It was more than enough for me, a bright, hard- working individual, to work on ONE degree through college. </p>
<p>I think anyone who is considering a dual degree in science plus music (again we still don’t know if the OP is talking about a BM in performance or perhaps a BA which might be more easily do-able) needs to really assess what type of learning ability they have. Are you a bright, hard-worker who loves science and helping people? No problem, please sign up for the road to med school! We sure need more doctors. You can always actively do your music on the side, as I would guess that most places with a good Neuroscience program will also have a good music program. You could even minor in music at some places. But really look long and hard at whether you want to spend a good chunk of your time in theory and musicology. They are time-consuming. (By the way, my D said that the entire content of AP Music Theory was covered in the first 3 weeks of her college music theory class. A sobering thought.) Are you the kind of gifted person who really doesn’t care so much about GPA, but craves learning everything just for the passion of learning? Then a dual degree might be right for you. If you are not this kind of person, and aim for a dual degree, you might be miserable, and will miss out on a lot of great college experiences, such as a bit of a social life. </p>
<p>I’ve said this before too, but will just remind that the road to med school involves not only course work but should include meaningful time spent on research and volunteer work. Demonstrating leadership is helpful. You will need to plan time for these activities. If your summers are taken up doing coursework to get through 2 degrees, this is going to be a lot more difficult.</p>
<p>If you can, talk to students, such as those above, who are involved in dual degree programs to find out what they are experiencing. Maybe some of the universities mentioned above can get you in touch with such students also.</p>
<p>Best of luck!</p>
<p>One of my son’s friends, a jazz trumpet player, is pursuing dual degree in neuro and music from Lawrence University–great school.</p>
<p>Another option to consider is Case Western.</p>
<p>It sounded like the OP was talking more academic music (music theory I believe he said) rather then a performance degree, though I could be wrong. If so, then there are a lot of schools you could prob get into that would support a dual degree in neuroscience and a music discipline. With a BM it is difficult because of all the requirements for a performance degree and then doing the lab courses and such required for med school, though it is possible, would be difficult,might be easier with a BA… I can understand the confusion about wanting to get into med school and such, here are some of my thoughts:</p>
<p>-Yes, it does take a strong academic record to get in there, and yes, you better be up there with a strong GPA, both in the major and across your courses, it along with MCAT scores is one of the prime factors of getting in, and there is no way to duck that.Being one of the so called ‘Gifted’ kids who actually didn’t do that well in college (yep, I was pre med at one point), it would be great to think that med school admissions people are looking for that, but given the competition out there and from what I have seen of the kids who end up in medical school, you basically aren’t going to get in arguing you ‘challenged yourself’, you need to show the academic creds and the scores. You can get into med school with any major, and music students do get in (in part, I suspect, because many of the kids who go into music in college already have the discipline to do well academically, plus there is a definite correlation because high level music students and being out there intellectually/academically. The discipline of becoming high level on an instrument also works well academically; my son is surrounded by kids who are both top notch musicians and end up getting into elite academic schools are rates much higher then even the top prep schools). </p>
<p>Still, like conservatory and high level music school admissions tend to be strongly one dimensional (technical ability on the instrument) med school has as a gatekeeper academic standing, and it cannot be ignored. I am sure there are examples where they give a kid a break who they see something in, whether it is their background or the fact that they scored high on the mcat while academically weren’t as good, but those are not something I would shoot for. I went through pre med 30 years ago (well, started to, anyway) and it wasn’t all that much different then a description I read from 30 years before that, by the writer Roger Kahn, who was attending NYU in the late 40’s, and he talked about the pre med and pre law culture that dominated at the school, where to him to those kids classes didn’t matter unless they could help with professional school admission, and what was taught in class wans’t about learning per se, but rather if it was worth points on a test. </p>
<p>-I also agree with others, trying to shop for a school where it is ‘easier’ is likely to be a non starter,especially when you are dealing with math and science courses.Those pretty much are going to be standard curricula and when you take chemistry or physics or organic chemistry (also know as ‘the breaker’ for pre med students), it isn’t going to be that much easier anywhere you go. Among other things, schools that attempted to ‘water down’ their curricula would find them losing their accreditation, not to mention that word would get out and they would find themselves scraping the bottom of the barrel for students (kind of like these for profit ‘colleges’ they have in NYC, that in reality are more like the old 2 year trade schools/business schools trying to position themselves as a college). If you are seriously thinking about pre-med, then expect it to be rough sledding. Yeah, there are always ‘crap courses’ in college you can take, especially in core course areas (kind of like on the old SNL with its “Samurai” series, where the character is at college, and they have an Asian studies class where you get a C if you can point to Asia on a map), but in a majors track, and especially in pre med, they doon’t give away grades anywhere in Chem, Physics, Calc or bio. I also would be careful loading up in High School on AP courses, you might find they give you credit but still make you take college level courses in those areas, albeit at a higher level…</p>
<p>-Speaking as a parent and also based on my experiences, there is something to be said for passion, about not doing something simply because you think it is good for medical school. While as I said above academics are going to be a key part of admissions, keep in mind that there are a lot of kids going to be applying to medical schools how have high GPA and high MCAT scores (much as, for example, Ivy league schools get a ton of kids with 4.0 unweighted GPA’s, 2200+ SATS’s, etc), and they are going to be looking for things to differentiate between them and that can be an edge. The bit I have read about med school admissions is they are like ivy league level admissions, they look at the kids record and try to see kids who stand out.Put it this way, I am sure they get kids with high grades/GPA’s/Scores in ivy level admissions, who have the ‘right’ ec’s, who they look at and think the kid spent his time gaming his way through school to get into an ivy league school (it is why they do interviews). I am sure med schools get a lot of kids applying with top level academic stats, whom when they look at their application, see a kid who only seemed interested in getting into med school. It is prob one of the reason music majors can get into med school, because they chose a path that was different and in many ways more difficult then let’s say majoring in Chemistry (specifically a high level BM program). Med schools weight heavily if you major in engineering, because they know how difficult a field that is and it isn’t a field someone trying to game the system to get into med school would choose (finding the ‘easiest’ path). If they see another kid with high GPA, High MCATS, who majored in chemistry or bio, does the kid stand out? Does he have anything that seems to be a passion, or rather simply to get into med school?</p>
<p>What I would recommend is finding a school and majors you feel something for and pursue it rather then focus on med school as the ultimate goal (though keep that in your peripheral vision), take it from me, there is nothing worse then grinding through classes you don’t care about simply to get a good grade (all majors have that, my ultimate major, comp sci, I had classes I gritted my teeth through,they were really boring, numeric methods comes to mind), you will be a lot happier to do something you like, and that makes it easier to do well, plus I suspect it will come through when you do a college interview and if they ask about your major(s), you can sound enthusiastic about it, talk about it with passion. </p>
<p>Another poster was correct, Bard does offer as neuroscience major, the daughter of an acquaintance is doing a BM and neuroscience (least last I heard).</p>
<p>Getting into med school today is extremely competitive, much more so than even 20 years ago. Last year, about half of all US students who applied to med school were admitted to at least 1 school. I have heard that generally, a 3.6, a 30 on MCAT, with good extra-curriculars which are related to the health sciences (volunteering at a hospital, scientific research) will get you in. Med Schools look at the sciences separately. So they basically look at 2 GPA’s, the total GPA, and the GPA for a segment of the science classes (bio, chem, physics and math I believe). The science GPA really does need to be very good. </p>
<p>Med schools today are looking for some level of well-roundedness. So, yes, one can pursue an interest in music, even major in music, while also taking the cluster of math/ science courses needed to satisfy the med school application. As far as whether to major in neuroscience, neurobiology, or neuroxxx, I don’t think it matters. Major in which ever one looks most interesting to you.</p>
<p>Most undergraduate schools have a med-school advisory board which can maybe answer some of the med-school admissions questions you might have, (i.e., how many students do they have applying to med school annually, what are they majoring in, etc.).</p>
<p>This is a very demanding road. I wish you the best of luck.</p>
<p>There is a tendency to focus on the objective when discussing admissions - GPA and test scores. But medical schools also focus on the subjective. While I may have missed it, I have seen little discussion of the importance of the interview in med school admissions. Not everyone is invited to interview but no one is admitted without one. I saw a stat that at some schools 3-4 applicants are asked to interview for every spot. These are the ones that survived the objective review of their applications. So in the end the medical school decsion is subjective. A friend of mine went to Harvard undergrad, kicked butt at a state medical scool and matched to her top choices for post medical school work. At some point it just comes down to working extremely hard and not trying to finesse the path through.</p>
<p>So the schools that I am now adding to my list:
-Tufts
-Oberlin</p>
<p>Northwestern doesnt have a neuroscience major, but will neurobiology fit what I’m looking for? I want to do neuroscience/biology with a physics focus.</p>
<p>jimi123,</p>
<p>In answer to your earlier question, my son’s gpa is ~3.75 at one school and 4.00 at the other. Be advised though, as others have already suggested, that a BM plus a BS would be a VERY, VERY heavy and demanding load. I doubt my son could have done it if he were a performance major. He regularly carries in excess of 22 credits per semester. </p>
<p>He started off as an environmental science major at Tufts and a composition major at NEC. He also studied violin on the side with Nicholas Kitchen and played in an NEC chamber quartet. In the middle of his sophomore year, he changed his major at Tufts to Cognitive Brain Sciences and then last spring, near the end of his 3rd year, he added the theory major at NEC. </p>
<p>He IS one of those gifted students who cares far more about learning everything he can and very little about grades. He’s also one of those kids who has lots and lots of diverse interests and is motivated to pursue them all. His biggest challenge, by far, has been time management and prioritizing. Over the last four years, he’s gotten quite good at both. He’s staying up in Boston over the summer to write his music theory thesis, so that he can focus on his CBS thesis, senior recital, grad applications and remaining course work in the fall and spring.</p>
<p>I don’t think he’d recommend his path to anyone who isn’t exceptionally motivated, self-disciplined and passionate about both fields of endeavor.</p>
<p>I hope these details leave you with the impression that while it is certainly possible to earn a BMus and a BS in a dual degree program, it would be quite arduous and you would definitely have to make some sacrifices along the way. There is not much margin for error in such a course. A changed major and/or a bad case of mono might put you in the position of having to drop one of the degrees. And you could probably rule out study abroad right from the start.</p>
<p>compmom- I probably should have mentioned at the beginning of the post that I am interested in music theory. </p>
<p>I’m willing to work hard, especially with areas I personally enjoy like music and science. Did your son have time for other extra curriculars? Will it be completely up to me to manage time between my courses and activities like research and volunteering, or do most dual degree students not have enough time to do out of school activities?</p>
<p>*beginning of the thread</p>
<p>The bottom part of the message above is intended for everyone, though I did word it to be directed towards one person.</p>
<p>I’m taking freshman courses (bio, calc and phys sequences) now to get them out of the way. Will that help my life as an undergrad?</p>
<p>Depending on what university you go to, taking those courses now may or may not help you. Some universities only accept AP or college level courses for elective credit, or for placement purposes, (and sometimes only if they’re 5’s for AP’s.) On the other hand, most state schools which want their students to graduate as quickly as possible (like the UC’s here in CA) will let you enter with Sophomore status and accept for credit AP’s with as low a score as a 3.</p>
<p>If you want to study music theory rather than performance, then my advice is to go for a BA in music with a double major, if you want, in the sciences. Or even just take music theory classes for elective credit, or for a minor (depending on which school you’re at.) No need for a double degree. At Bard, for instance, if you want a degree in music theory - that is in the college and not the conservatory - and it would be a BA in Music with a musicology/theory emphasis.</p>
<p>I think your choice of schools is wide open at this point. And I would probably first look at schools for their science offerings, and then check out their music theory/musicology dept. Perhaps choose a school where the science curriculum leaves lots of room for electives…</p>
<p>Can I still participate in ensembles as a theory major/minor?</p>