My business as an admissions factor

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hello everyone. I've been reading through posts and am impressed by what I've seen. I thought I'd put my situation out there to hear what some of you think.</p>

<p>Basically I started a business in 2007 right after I graduated from high school (technology and internet services). My sales for 2008 stand at about $51,000... I don't expect to get much higher. The economic situation has hit business really hard in the past 2 months and I only expect to be able to do about $20,000 in sales through the end of 2009. This will take me up to about $70,000 in sales for 2008 and 2009 when I'm applying to law schools (profit of about $50,000 before taxes). I run the business on my own. I make all of the decisions and handle all of the accounting and finance activities. I've worked with hundreds of customers and developed many strong relationships... I managed to make a lot of money over the past year despite economic collapse and despite being an 18 and then 19-year-old college student.</p>

<p>As you might imagine, business has consumed a significant amount of my time over the past year. I'm not involved in any organizations or extracurriculars beyond my own (aside from some writing that has appeared in the newspaper a few times).</p>

<p>I expect my GPA at application time to be about a 3.6 and I expect to get around 170 on the LSAT. I'm a finance major.</p>

<p>I'd like to go somewhere in the top 10. My GPA, LSAT, and non-academic involvement won't be stellar, so I'm wondering how far my business will go in selling me to schools.</p>

<p>What do you think?</p>

2

<p>It will help, but probably not as much as you think it will. Basically, LSAT and GPA are the most important things--in general, everything else helps law schools decide among people with similar numbers; it doesn't convince them to take people with significantly lower numbers.</p>

3

<p>Stacy's right. It will help, but very little.</p>

4

<p>ok- i'm just going to throw out a tidbit of anecdotal info I picked up over the years.<br>
the bottom 25% of admittances to law school obviously includes kids whose LSAT's/GPA's are below the usual range of admittance- but they may be among the most interesting and compelling candidates for admission. This could include entrpreneurs, military officers, URM's and those that have backgrounds that really stand out.</p>

<p>This tidbit was noted by a law school admission consultant on LSD (yes- he gave his e-mail and he was affiliated with one of the well known admission consultant firms and no not the drug but on the LSD website) so I think there is some validity to this bit of info. </p>

<p>He explained that the bottom 25% numbers do not get calculated into the median LSAT/gpa score - so the school has little to lose stat wise by admitting people with these lower #'s. That is why many of those admitted in the lower 25% may have some of the more interesting backgrounds though there gpa/lsat #'s are below the "average" student at these law schools.
I can't attest to the "truthiness" of his statement, but it doesn't seem totally out of line either.</p>

<p>If you do get a 170 LSAT and a 3.6, you'll probably get admitted to a T-14 anyway. but I think the business background may give you a real boost in the application process.
geez- how many 174/ 3.8 can HYS take. They need some diversity too in their student body.</p>

5

<p>IMO, as a rough "rule of thumb," LSAT and gpa account for about 80% of LS admissions outcome. 10% rely on things over which the candidate has little control--URM status, legacy status,"access to power" status, geography (being from Wyoming may help at Harvard and Yale; being from California will help at Berkeley), developmental cases, etc. Only about 10% of the outcome is dependent on other soft-factors. These include the quality of your personal statement, the LORs you get from profs, work experience, etc. </p>

<p>IMO, a lot of the folks who get in and are in the bottom quarter of their LS in terms of incoming stats have things in the category over which you have limited control--they are minorities, legacies, development cases, geographically assisted, "access to power" cases, etc. (If the son or daughter of the Attorney General of the US or the Solicitor General or a Supreme Court Justice, the governor of a state, the chair of the House Ways & Means Committee, etc., applied to LS, I suspect (s)he'd get a bit of a boost. So, would anyone who played an important role in a major political campaign and could get a great rec from a political VIP for that reason. ) </p>

<p>I think it would be a VERY generous estimate to say that half of that bottom quarter or one-eighth of the class had none of those characteristics. Of the half that doesn't, one heck of a lot will have done Peace Corps, Teach for America, and other public service type things or served in the military--which is also public service--for at least two years. </p>

<p>Of the remainder, there are the "story" cases. The OP is not sufficiently different to be a "story." Story is Elizabeth Wuertzel, the author of Prozac Nation and other (less well-received) books, who got into YLS with a 160 LSAT, according to the NYTimes. Story is the the guy who spent six years in prison for drug dealing, came out, successfully fought the effort to deport him to the nation where he was born but left while under a year of age, went to college, and lead a successful campaign to get the state in which he lived to let ex-cons vote. Story is the woman who was a union organizer for 15 years--well, she had 5+ years of work experience--who decided that she really needed a law degree to fight union busters. Story is the young woman who was Miss America and went to HLS--for all I know, she had the stats; I don't claim to know them, but being Miss America surely made her application stand out! Story is the professional opera singer, who lost his voice, tried to collect disability and was unable to do so who became an expert on disability law. Story/celeb is Sean Farrow, only bio child of Woody Allen and Mia Farrow, who graduated from Bard with a 3.9 or so at the age of 16, but reputedly only scored a 163 or so on the LSAT. (He was urged to and did defer several years.) Story is the guy who played pro-football, but was injured his first season--and who may have had the LSAT, but who had a little low GPA, earned while he was playing DI football on a top 25 team well enough to be drafted by the pros. Story is the guy who played pro-basketball in Europe for 5 years--well, that's work experience too. Story/celeb is the guy who was the drummer for a top rock band, who hit 30 and decided his rock days were over. (Also WE). Story is the guy who sold out his half of a very successful business for $10 million because he wanted to go to something else. (I think he actually had the stats though.) </p>

<p>I'm not saying the OP won't get into a top 14 LS if he gets a 170. He might. I'm just saying that a part time business while attending college run by a finance major isn't going to help much. </p>

<p>Please note that NOTHING I've written here contradicts what Marny's "insider" said. I just don't happen to think that a part-time business run by a finance major is going to be much of a boost.</p>

<p>I apologize for the book. I've written it in large part because I think "ordinary" college students who want to go to LS have to understand that if they don't have the numbers, other things just aren't going to make up for it. So, the best advice I can give the OP is to get his gpa up and rock the LSAT.</p>

6

<p>jonri- i think we agree. I also strongly suggest that OP aim for LSAT of 170 or higher. But no one here can judge which applicants background has that WOW factor!!<br>
I think everyone needs to have a realistic assessment as to what their chances are - but I don't want anyone to feel intimidated or "unworthy" to send in an application to a reach school.<br>
If you have a real good academic background and compelling experience, I say GO FOR IT!! But have some safety/match schools on your list too.</p>

7

<p>Thanks for your input. I would point out that I'm not trying to replace numbers--I expect to do really well on the LSAT and it is very possible my GPA will be higher than 3.6 by application time. My question was actually on whether or not my business would replace other factors (involvement in organizations, etc)! I know people who had top numbers and didn't get into top schools who were lacking in that area.</p>

<p>Anyway, I would note that it's a rags to riches story. I was basically an abused child (I don't know whether I should offer that up or not...) and I raised myself. I went to school and I pushed myself to do what I needed to do--there was no interest or support at home. It was the same way when I went off to college. I've put myself through college. My parents have basically contributed nothing (average parental income for my school is $100,000). </p>

<p>I had spent 18 years as a poor kid, and I was tired of it. I decided to stand up and do something; I created my business with no capital and no connections. I went from being $7000 in debt to making $4000 a month on my own. I don't know any other students who own their own businesses, let alone people who had a 10 month run at $4000. This is not some little part-time job I took on for beer money. Whether I can pull off the numbers or not I'm far from ordinary and this isn't a typical experience.</p>

8

<p>I think the point that the posters are trying to make is that your story just isn't as unusual as you may believe. There are hundreds of thousands of law school applicants, and most of them are overachievers with very strong stories. These are White House Interns, Presidents of their classes, students who run charitable foundations, students from war zones and African villages who overcame huge obstacles, sons and daughters of Fortune 500 CEOs, Olympic medal winners, etc. My son personally knows a student with the same story as yours (no parental support, running own successful small businesses to put herself through college). The soft factors in the applications are unlikely to guarantee an admission unless they are extraordinary. Your story is impressive, but just doesn't appear to fall into that extraordinary category. Still, with your GPA, LSAT >170 and your story, you look like a good candidate! lawschoolnumbers will give you a good picture.</p>