My chances as an international student into neuro PhD programs?

Graduate School
1

<p>Hi guys,</p>

<p>So, I'm wondering - how much harder is it to get into top PhD programs in biology, neuroscience in my case, for international students? I'm interested in doing my PhD in the US, but I have no clue what my chances are. I'll be applying next year, I'm currently in 3rd year. My back-ups are U Toronto and McGill, both of which are strong in neuroscience anyway, and I know I wont have any trouble getting into these schools. </p>

<p>My stats:
University of Toronto
cGPA: 3.88 (I assume ~3.85-3.9 when I apply); 3.94 if just my last two years.
Major: Neuroscience - although except for 2 required non-science courses, all my other courses are science. I'm also taking a lot of 4th year specializes neuro courses right now (fundamentals of ion channels, neurodegenerative diseases, systems neuroscience, just to name a few.. hopefully having a strong background will help). </p>

<p>Research: volunteer summer after first year, 2nd year research project (full year credit), 16-week NSERC - Undergrad. Summer Research Award this past summer, volunteering now (hopefully another NSERC award this summer + thesis in a different lab) - so far one lab at UToronto/SickKids Hospital in behavioral neuroscience (my PI did her postdocs at Yale and UCLA, and is a canada research chair, and I know I'll have a freaking awesome LOR from her)</p>

<p>Papers: 2 middle author papers, one being submitted soon, another uh.. in the making (it takes a long time to do things when you collaborate so much and work with mice)
Also one peer-reviewed undergraduate publication thus far, a mini-review on something unrelated to what I do in the lab. I hope to write at least two more mini-reviews and maybe a research paper on my work in the lab. I really love writing.
I'm also a science journalist for JYI (The</a> Journal of Young Investigators :: JYI.org) and I get involved in a lot of outreach science things like Brain Awareness Week. </p>

<p>Haven't done the GREs nor subject GRE - will do so after this summer. </p>

<p>I'm not sure where I want to go and in fact, I'm not even sure what I'm really interested in - everything, really, unfortunately, which is partly why I'm just taking a lot of different neuro courses. I find myself drawn to theoretical stuff a lot more, like ion channel gating for example, but yet in the lab, I enjoy the behavioral stuff the most. Something that is important to me is public outreach, public understanding of science and I'm very interested in science writing (I kind of want to do my PhD and become a science writer, to be honest). I love science too much, sometimes I think, to spend my life doing experiments (as much as I like it as well) because I just want to share my love for it and explain it well to others - to bridge the gap, I guess. </p>

<p>So, I'm very interested in PhD programs that emphasize that part of science as well (like Columbia seems to, for example). Any thoughts? Do you guys know of any programs or how/if I'm competitive to big-name private universities? I have no clue.. the US just has too many schools! Any input would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to be limited to just the two places in Canada.</p>

2

<p>Judging from your profile I would say that your shot at US grad schools is going to be as good as anybody's. Univ of Toronto is well respected even by academics here. Your research experience is what would make you an attractive candidate. </p>

<p>Science writing is something that people seem to break into after grad school. There are post docs that allow you to specialize in science writing which seems to be the principal way that people get into that.</p>

<p>There are a lot of neuro programs in the US. There are a lot more that focus on behavioral research as well. Apply to a large range of schools and you should be fine. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that there is a huge diversity of programs here as we have both colleges and universities that have graduate programs (unlike in Canada). Things that you might want to consider that would differ from Canadian academics would be things like metropolitan centers (some are large, some have very little bioscience, some are very spread out), connections to medical colleges (clinical journals will be edited by faculty at medical schools but not every phd program takes place at a medical college), culture (the friendliness and tolerance will be vastly different between the midwest, the west coast and the east coast) and specialty programs (translational programs, public health certificates etc). </p>

<p>The financial structure in grad school here is different than in Canada as well. Don't expect to make any money TAing or tutoring, but your tuition will be paid by the department. Your health insurance (enormous expense here) will be covered by the school.</p>

3

<p>Do not worry about being accepted to top universities in US. I think you have a very good chance, since like previously said Univ. of Toronto is very well respected in life sciences in general. At this time, focus on keeping your gpa (because I know 3rd year and 4th year courses can get pretty tough). And maintain contact with your CRC supervisor, and try to get a paper published by the time you apply to graduate school. It's ok that you are interested in a lot of areas. I think you are still in a stage of exploring different things. When I was in third year, I honestly did not know what I wanted to do, and it was in winter semester 3rd year that I knew protein structure was what I liked the most. Also, try to attend academic conferences in your field if you have any opportunities. Sometimes keynote presentations can give you ideas on what you want to pursue in grad studies.</p>

4

<p>Big ups! Another UofTer in the forum. </p>

<p>You'll do great. Internationals like us have it harder but with those stats there isn't rlly much you can improve on. Just enjoy the rest of undergrad and see how it all works out.</p>

5

<p>^^ MasterMoe, I have no reason to suspect your username is different than what you use on Biome.. if it is indeed the same, you've met me.</p>

6

<p>Hi, safety, fellow canadian here. I have similar stats as you and is applying to a couple different US neuroscience PhD program(Yale, Rockefeller, Michigan, UCSD, Harvard, UPenn, Mount Sinai, and NYU) this year. I've been with in touch with some admission ppl/profs at some of these schools, and it seems neuro is a very competitive and popular field and a lot of them seem to only have room for one international student per year so that makes it very tough. So I am just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best, and I will keep you updated once i hear something back.
As for research interest, I think you are way ahead of the curve right now. I didn't even figure out that i wanted to do neuro till sometime during third year, but i did take a year after that to do a co-op program in the pharma industry working a neuro project to get exposed in the field and figure out areas within neuro that i was interested in. Your current PI sounds like a wonderful resource that you could use to help you figure out your interest. Have a chat with her if you get a chance and really pick her brains (pun not intended) about what type of research she has done when she was a student and researchers she is famaliar with in the various field of neuro doing interesting work. Networking starting now can only benefit, even if it doesn't help with graduate school admissions, it puts your name out there for postdoc positions in these labs if you intend to pursue academia.</p>

7

<p>hey neurokid, are you applying to any canadian schools, namely UToronto or McGill? Why/Why not?</p>

<p>my PI HAS been helping me alot, as has everyone in the lab - it is a huge lab but they treat me like a grad student, since i go out with them often and they even invite me to their dept. grad get-togethers. even friday i went to lunch with a visiting scientist and my PI and we spent the whole time talking about this/related issues. so yeah, it is awesome. i actually realize i know a lot more about what i want to do than i give myself credit for. something that combine systems like learning/memory or maybe motor, with animal models and electrophysiology. i realize i like systems a lot, and i like theory a lot, and electrophys keeps me connects with something more physics related, which i also like.. and it seems more concrete than just molecular work. and with animals, i love going from start to finish... from surgeries to histology, it feels rewarding. so yeah. i guess i know quite a bit eh?</p>

<p>i'm more curious about what you see as the pros/cons of Canadian vs. US PhD programs??</p>

8

<p>Neurokid, may I ask why you applied to Michigan and UCSD? If I'm not mistaken UCSD is a public research school in California and takes very few international students. </p>

<p>This may be a huge generalization but Michigan is a public research university. Usually, public universities have less funds to support international students and the trend follows that they usually take less international students. I may be mistaken so please correct me if I'm wrong. </p>

<p>As for safetypin's qstn reg the pros/cons of Canadian vs. US PhD programs, I haven't rlly seen too huge of a difference as far as academic research goes in both countries. The only relevant difference may be funding. I'd probably just look at it on a University vs. University basis rather than paying much attention to the research 'atmosphere' in both countries. But I'm sure your PI would be more than happy to talk to you abt that. </p>

<p>Safetypin, you also mentioned doing the subject GRE. May I ask what particular subject GRE?</p>

<p>From the list of possible subject GREs, I don't really see any particular one Neuro grad schools would care about too much.</p>

<p>GRE</a> Subject Tests Overview</p>

9

<p>Master, you are right that UCSD and Michigan have very little funding for international students. My selection of which US schools to apply to was strictly based upon geography, quality of program, and quantity of PI that I would love to work with, and little consideration on what my chances on getting in are. I figured that if I don't get into any of the US programs, there's always Canadian programs which are more or less guaranteed so why not go for what I really want. Michigan and UCSD have two of the best neuroscience program in the US with Michigan being extremely strong in behavioural neuroscience and UCSD having some of top people in addiction research. Are you applying this year as well? Which schools are you applying to? Good luck! Hope we both get into the programs that we want.</p>

<p>Safety, I do planning on applying Mcgill for sure, not sure about UT yet depending on how many interviews I am able to get from the US schools. If you are interested in good neuroscience program in other places in Canada, look at UBC and University of Lethbridge.
My main concern with the Canadian PhD program is the lack of the lab rotation system. You mainly just apply for the specific PI, which could be great if you are absolutely sure you want to work with the PI and the lab for next several years and would probably finish your PhD faster due to not having to do rotations. But for schools which you are not famaliar with(UT and McGill in my case), you are making a big decision based upon very few meetings with the PI and email correspondence. I've heard horror stories about after deciding on a lab and working in it for a few month, the student realizes that either the PI was not what he/she appeared to be initially (slave driver, micromanager etc...) or the whole lab atmosphere is very competitive and unfriendly. So I prefer the rotation system, where you get to be in the day to day life of the lab for a couple of months and observe whether in addition to the research, the atmosphere of the lab and the mentoring style of the PI, is a good fit for what you are looking to get out of graduate studies.</p>

10

<p>Excellent point neurokid. I forgot all about that. Ya rotations rlly are necessary IMO. I don't know why some Canadian schools choose to forgo this practice.</p>

<p>Naw I won't be applying this year neurokid. I'll be applying next year. Same year of study as safetypin.</p>

<p>I'm studying genetics/microbio for the moment and I haven't really decided which field I'm going to go for.</p>

<p>I have a short list of schools I'm considering at the moment but I'm sure this list will change a bit come next year;</p>

<p>CORNELL WEILL, ROCKEFELLER, COLUMBIA, UPENN, YALE, Princeton, Duke,
Uchicago</p>

<p>UOFT & McGill</p>

<p>However, my stats aren't really all that impressive so I'm certain I'll get rejected from the vast majority of these schools.</p>

<p>GPA~3.45 to 3.55 cumulative Major GPA may be a bit higher.
Obviously don't have a clue abt the GREs. I doubt I'll do a subject GRE </p>

<p>research experience; research project 2nd yr summer in a genomics lab, working in a virology lab this school year. research project 3rd yr summer--probably working in my current PI's lab, 4th yr research project course--probably with another PI. </p>

<p>LORs; Probably all 3 will be from PIs. One I suspect will be solid but not glowing.</p>

<p>Hopefully I can get a publication prior to graduation.</p>

11

<p>I believe that the Molecular Genetics graduate program at U of T allows you to do rotations, but not Biochemistry and Medical Biophysics programs. Another thing I know is that molecular genetics program has two deadlines (one in Jan and one in May). The May deadline is for those who cannot make the first deadline. I am delaying my application to U of T so that I can hear back from US schools.</p>

12

<p>The reasons I am considering US schools:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>it is warmer and I want bike-able weather
okay, okay, that's not really #1, but it is in there.</p></li>
<li><p>rotations. i've heard horror stories too. the lab i'm at now is awesome, but their stories! where it is so competitive that there's more competition within the lab than not. when people have their own PENS.. like geez. and lie to each to screw up their experiments. uh, no thanks! at the same time, it is so much easier to find out for me, being at UofT, what the labs are like if I want to go to any here. i can literally probably just go in and knock, or ask around.</p></li>
<li><p>direct PhD. most programs here are masters-transfer, although some, i think you can do direct like Institute of Medical Sciences</p></li>
<li><p>i feel like my only choices are UofT and McGill for top neuroscience, coming from UofT.. i don't know if i want to stay here or not. i truly don't. i love the city, but i don't know. montreal is alright, but damn, they don't pay much, and i don't speak a word of french. </p></li>
<li><p>if you get into US, tuition is covered, it is not covered here. however, i don't know what the cost of living is in a lot of places and so the few thousands of dollars difference might not make a difference.</p></li>
<li><p>why not? right. minus the whole studying for GREs, and i guess the subject GRE, ugh.. regarding that, i guess i'd do the cell & mol bio/biochem one? i haven't looked too much at them, or the other bio one. definitely NOT psych. i feel like i have a chance in US schools, certainly you can have way better stats than me, and i haven't done the GREs, but i figure i have a shot, so meh.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>thing is, i'm not against doing grad work here. i think there is so much great research going on, and the reason i went here is for that (not to get screwed over by negative linear adjustments on marks, ugh), BUT... i want something new! </p>

<p>but here's the thing, so many people are picking locations all over the place.. but what about relationships? is no one dating? is no one in serious relationships? i can imagine tons of people are probably in relationships with others who may also want to go into grad school, maybe in a different field where their top universities are in europe, or something.. no one seems to mention this though. </p>

<p>the negative about rotations is, it could be a waste of time if you do know who you want to work for and where. if i find the perfect PI in canada, hellz yes i'm staying, since i don't think i should be paranoid about getting into grad school here. a lot of the schools there have mandatory TA's things, that a lot of programs at UofT don't, which may be nice, i have no clue. i've asked around about the rotations thing and it seems everyone's split.</p>

<p>and neurokid, behavioural neuroscience and addiction? what specifically are you interested in? hoping to work with Eric Nestler, where's he, mount sinai? i spent the summer doing cocaine addiction research, well, part of it anyway. is that what you are mainly interested in, behaviour/systems neuroscience? addiction is on the same line as learning/memory. it is pretty cool stuff.</p>

13

<p>and to bernard, yeah, you are right! the molecular genetics does have a rotations! i'm afraid the neuroscience collaborative program is probably way too disorganized.</p>

14

<p>I thought Nestler was somewhere in Texas -- Baylor, maybe, or UT.</p>

<p>
[quote]
but here's the thing, so many people are picking locations all over the place.. but what about relationships? is no one dating? is no one in serious relationships? i can imagine tons of people are probably in relationships with others who may also want to go into grad school, maybe in a different field where their top universities are in europe, or something.. no one seems to mention this though.

[/quote]

When I was applying, I picked schools in the same geographical areas as the best schools for aerospace engineering (Boston, LA, SF) because my boyfriend (now husband) and I were adamant about being in the same place. Luckily for us, there's quite a bit of geographic overlap between great aerospace engineering programs and great biology programs.</p>

15

<p>Master, I think taking the subject GRE might not be a bad idea(if money isn't an issue), esp if you think your GPA might not be as strong as other applicants. To the admission committee, GPA is probably a reflection of your science background knowledge. If you can score high on the subject test, it can be argued in your favor that your background knowledge is just as good as someone else with a higher GPA at another institution, so they may place less emphasis on your GPA and more on your research experience. Just keep working on your research, and if you can get some posters, conference presentations or publications out before application time, you've got a good shot!</p>

<p>Nestler is at Mount Sinai now, I think they lured him with Chair of Neuroscience and Director of the Neuroscience Institute position. He was the main reason for my application at Mount Sinai, along with Yasmin Hurd and John Morrison. Well also the fact that it's in New York! I did my internship last year in the area and absolutely fell in love with the city. </p>

<p>My research interest is sort of two fold right now. I am interested in how the interplay between neurotransmitter, hormones and environment (stress, enrichment) contribute to normal behaviour such as learning, memory, motivation, attention, emotion, etc, and examine this from a molecular and cellular perspective all the way up to animal models. But also how a disturbance in this can contribute to the neurobiology and pathophysiology of various psychiatric disorder like schizophrenia, depression and drug abuse.</p>

<p>As for the relationship question, I sort of put my personal life on hold for the last couple of years and actively avoided getting into serious relationships. I didn't think it was fair to myself or the other person knowing that I would likely be leaving for an extended period of time and having to either do the relationship long distance or ask that person to abandon their life to conform with mine. It also makes leaving slightly easier to have one less emotional attachment to leave behind, as it is hard enough to abandon family and all current friends behind.</p>

16

<p>Yeah, there's no harm in doing the subject GRE, right, if you don't do well, you don't have to show it to them, correct? </p>

<p>Seems like you REALLY know exactly what you want to do! Speaking of which, I have no clue how to write those letters of interest or whatever they are called.. I think that's going to be the hardest part of the application! </p>

<p>It is kind of true about relationship, but at the same time, okay, but you'll do a post-doc, somewhere else for 2 years, and maybe somewhere else for another 3 years, and maybe move to a permanent position somewhere, and then maybe 10-15 years later become a director of something half-away across the globe. You know what I mean? I kind of realized that this year.. I can't put the other part of my life on hold anymore (and ha, thus watched my grades suffer and now I'm cramming for an exam tomorrow!).</p>

17

<p>Bernard, I'll prolly be applying to the MGY dept at UofT. But it will probably be my last resort as I have no interest in staying in Canada. I'm pretty confident i'll get into the MGY dept as I expect all of my PIs to come from within the dept.</p>

18

<p>safetypin, i'm sure many schools in Canada do have stipends and full tuition. I know a lot of the biomed depts at UofT do.</p>

<p>Also, doing that particular subject GRE might not be of any relevance for a neuro program. </p>

<p>Unless one is in a serious relationship, i think the particular grad school one chooses is more important than some girl/boy that prolly wont be around in 2yrs.</p>

<p>I also think that it is naive to choose a school cuz you think you found the perfect PI. It is a matter of fit and most depts have enough PIs where you should find multiple suitable PIs. I wouldn't choose a school because of one PI i love, even if I'm guaranteed a spot in the lab.</p>

19

<p>You are right about no subject GRE being the right fit. Your advice on dept >> PI is actually counter to pretty much everything I've heard thus far. Dept., matters too. If the school is big, if there is a lot of money in there, a lot of equipment, that's fantastic.. but as someone said, an MD/PhD from UCLA who's going to be starting up his own lab in a couple of month told me.. saying you have a PhD from Harvard or Yale sounds great to anyone on the street, but within the field, no one cares what school you're from - to some extent, obviously, everyone cares about the person you did your research with.. besides those form your connections anyway. You can do your PhD in a *<strong><em>ty (not just atmosphere, but publications, reputation, etc.) at Harvard, that wont teach you how to do science well, and no one in the field will care it was Harvard, they'll just know it was a *</em></strong> lab. </p>

<p>You mean they <em>cover</em> the tuition? US schools pay for your tuition, but here, like IMS or Physiology, you pay tuition out of your stipend. Plus there's the issue of top-ups. If you get external scholarships, how much of it do you keep vs. less for them to pay.. that kind of stuff. I'm not 100% sure how it all works. </p>

<p>I think the key thing is knowing what you want to study and finding the best place and PI for it. I think it is hard to say what's better PI or dept.. they both matter a lot! A great PI but no resources in the dept., no money, no great facilities, obviously, bad. I'm not sure you can find multiple suitable PIs though. </p>

<p>What programs/schools are you going to apply to? Would you rather go to a school that's less well known in the US vs. UofT? What are you interested in doing? If anything, you can do your master's here and apply again to US. No point in doing something for 5-6 years unless you truly want to. Do you want to go into research after your PhD (which may sound like a dumb question, but in this day and age, I don't really think it is, considering I don't think I may want to)?</p>

<p>About relationships, sure, yeah, but I'm just surprised no one really mentions it. Well, I'm confident the person I'm seeing now would leave me in a heart-beat to go do math in some of the top programs in the world before I'm even able to say bye.</p>

20

<p>No I think you have what I said a bit confused safetypin. By the time you finish your PhD your PI and what you've done in his/her lab will matter more than what school you went to.</p>

<p>However, unless you've already worked for a long time with a certain PI and want to do grad with that PI and are assured of that, I wouldn't choose the dept based on that PI. And your supposedly awesome PI may treat grad differently than undergrads. Many depts at top schools (in your field mind you) will usually have top names as well. It would be naive to assume one won't find a suitable match after rotations. </p>

<p>However, adcoms may be turned off in an interview if they notice you are too eager to work with a specific PI in their dept. They may think you applied only for that PI. This can be troublesome if you can't find a spot in that lab.</p>