My Daughter Would Make a Great Lawyer, But....

Graduate School Law School
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<p>My daughter, a sociology/social psych. major, just graduated with her B.A. in December. She first went to our local community college and maintained a high gpa. When she went to our State school, she started out with a different major which required strong math/science. Because she struggled with the math, especially, her gpa was negatively affected. She changed majors. Even though she did well in her other classes, she only came out with 2.8.</p>

<p>I believe that my daughter has what it takes to be a great lawyer and that she would find it very rewarding. She feels that it would be impossible to get into law school with her low gpa. Is she correct?</p>

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<p>there are law schools that will take someone with a 2.8. Which ones will take your daughter will be greatly determined by her LSAT score–a 2.8/140 candidate is obviously looking at very different schools than a 2.8/180 candidate.</p>

<p>If she wants to go to law school (and she, not you, will obviously have to make that decision) she should probably apply to more schools than the average applicant because it’s hard to predict which schools will take a chance on a student with a low GPA. She can also write a brief addendum to her application noting the difference between her math/science grades and grades in her other courses.</p>

<p>If, after taking the LSAT, it looks like her only options for law school are fairly low-ranked ones, I’d encourage both of you to read the threads on these boards about the financial implications of attending different tiers of law schools. She might find that there are other jobs that use similar skills but will put her in a better financial position, considering the cost of law school.</p>

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<p>Thank you very much, Stacy. I’ll pass along your suggestions to my daughter.</p>

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<p>Stacy has already given you good advice, but I’d like to ask - what is it specifically about your daughter that would make her a great lawyer? </p>

<p>To be honest, Sociology is usually stereotyped as the easiest major in college and while I realize she changed majors, a 2.8 is pretty weak. But LSAT can make a big difference and help her get into a decent Law school. In my personal opinion, I wish Law schools were still run like Med Schools - there used to be no tiers, everyone needed a good gpa/lsat and had to be qualified to become an attorney. Now there’s a whole 3rd and 4th tier, and supply of lawyers has exceeded demand in this country. So your daughter will have options, undoubtedly. </p>

<p>Good luck - tell your daughter not to give up until she has taken the LSAT (I’m guessing she’s already preparing for this). :)</p>

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<p>Hi, Molly 4190. I have witnessed my daughter’s abilities on numerous occasions. She has a strong sense of right and wrong and will pursue an issue through research til the ends of the earth. She is very resourceful and tenacious. The gpa was brought down ALOT because of the math. Some of the science involved math, so that was affected, too. Grades in her major were A’s and B’s. Life circumstances also affected her grades. No, excuses, just explanations.</p>

<p>I’m confused about the LSAT’s. The book we have shows what the material is like, and I just don’t see how being able to solve these type of logic/puzzle type questions has anything to do with success in law school. Would you (or anybody else out there) be able to explain this to me?</p>

<p>Thank you for your help.</p>

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<p>Ok well the LSAT is divided into 3 parts, I believe - Logic Games, Logical reasoning, and Reading comp. Well I’m sure you understand why Reading Comp is important. But the LSAT also tries to determine your ability to logically reason. That’s why I was wondering what specific abillities you saw in your daughter - most parents would have said, “argumentative” because that’s how they see lawyers - but the ability to logically reason is very important and makes up 2/3 of the test, so that explains the puzzles you’re seeing. It may seem odd since your daughter won’t doing these puzzles in law school, but they’re trying to determine her ability to logically reason and analyze.</p>

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<p>The LSAT is a good predictor of success in law school and has little correlation with success in the practice of law. But success in getting into the better law schools and excelling in law school are necessary to get the best jobs. The LSAT tests reasoning , logic. Math and philosophy majors do best. I suspect sociology majors don’t do as well.</p>

<p>A sense of right and wrong and tenacity in research are not great reasons to go into law. If your daughter is into social justice, try social work school.</p>

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<p>ramaswami: You stated that “a sense of right and wrong and tenacity in research are not great reasons to go into law.” May I ask, what would you say IS a good reason?</p>

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<p>I assume ramaswami means that while these are useful to a lawyer, they are useful to an extremely broad range of fields, and are therefore not good reasons to specifically go into law. The crucial assets for law students, at least, are extremely strong argumentation skills. Most specifically, skill at clear, organized writing and at logical analysis (e.g. syllogisms). This is why the LSAT has a heavy math component – because, implicitly, so will law school.</p>

<p>(Not to say that we do long division or anything like that, but syllogistic reasoning, proofs, reasoning by analogy, etc. is implicitly mathematical.)</p>

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<p>I am not trying to be contrary, but a strong sense of right and wrong might not be the best attribute for a lawyer. There are MANY grey areas in law and business, as we all know. Practicing law requires some flexibility and the ability to consider different sides of an issue. I am not saying that you should not be ethical, but sometimes it is extremely difficult to distinguish right from wrong.</p>

<p>Agree that with a LSAT of 168 or better, there will be some decent schools that are possibilities for your daughter.</p>

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<p>Did I mention that DD has extremely good argumentation skills and has the ability to consider different sides of an issue? But if math is involved…this career choice will not work for her. Almost forgot to mention that writing is her forte.</p>

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<p>Well, obviously we don’t do “math” in the traditional sense – differentiation, tangents, trigonometry, etc. But legal analysis resembles mathematical reasoning much more than it resembles anything else from, say, high school.</p>

<p>Argumentation, in the sense I used it in post #9, doesn’t mean rhetorical flourishes or argumentative energy or even intellectual balance. It means being able to break down a syllogism into its component parts, examine each for its inductive and deductive aspects (again, math rears its head), challenge the stated assumptions or the logical inferences (math), examine the implications, and rebalance the presumption (i.e. rearrange the equation). In structure and underlying skills, this is much closer to a mathematical proof than an English essay.</p>

<p>Having had a science background, I can tell you that legal writing more closely resembles “technical writing” than it resembles, say, a history essay. It’s the argumentative organization, not the language, which determines whether a brief succeeds or fails. (And I already attend the law school which probably has the greatest attention paid to creativity.)</p>

<p>So no, we don’t do “math” in law school, but everything we do has a mathematical core underlying the structuring and organization. Instead of imagining an essay, with all its subtlety and nuance and development, legal argumentation neglects most of that in favor of a sort of verbal flow chart which is, for lack of a better word, mathematically directed.</p>

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<p>SS: It may just be that you didn’t say so, but does your D want to be an attorney? Why? Has she had any exposure to any sort of legal practice? What kind? </p>

<p>Please understand that the following isn’t meant to be rude, just blunt. If your D struggled to get a 2.8–and I’m not sure from your post if that’s the gpa for her last two years or includes her gpa from CC–maybe she shouldn’t go to law school. There are certainly people who got 2.8 gpa’s in college and then did well in LS, but most of those I know personally “blew off” college. They simply didn’t try all that hard. I’d be really hesitant to suggest that someone who got a 2.8 in college by WORKING for it go on to LS, even if they get in. </p>

<p>Not only in there a hierarchy among law schools; there’s a hierarchy among law students. On a train I once had an interesting conversation with a smart young woman who went to a third tier law school. She’d gone to an Ivy undergrad and had high test scores, but in college she goofed off. She was working very, very hard in LS. She told me that she felt the way her LS advertised itself was really misleading. Why? Because it has a pretty good bar passage rate, BUT–roughly 30% of those who entered never graduated. And, she said that a LOT of them were strung on for two years. Then they owed the LS whopping loans. They got cut after two years–and the LS was able to brag about what a high percentage of its grads pass the bar the first time. Nothing was said about the 30% of those who never graduated. </p>

<p>Now your D may be one of those folks who live somewhere where she can get into a state law school with low tuition–I don’t know.But for most folks, we’re talking about an investment of $150,000 or so. And, while it may sound rude, I’d be very hesitant to encourage someone who had to struggle to get a 2.8 to make that kind of investment. I think that VERY few people who get a 2.8 in college WHILE TRYING HARD are going to be able to pull off a 168 on the LSAT. (I’m using the score MOWC mentioned.) And if your D does get into LS, please understand that she may have to work very, very hard to stay there and graduate. And, even if she works very, very hard, there’s no guarantee that she’l make it through, especially if she goes to a law school with a high rate of attrition. </p>

<p>So, personally, I’d recommend the following. I’d have your D sit down under timed conditions and take a LSAT. Take her score and her gpa, go to [LSAC.org</a> Homepage](<a href=“http://www.lsac.org%5DLSAC.org”>http://www.lsac.org). and use the gizmo there that tells her her chances of getting into various LSs. Then I’d see what those law schools were going to cost. And I’d look at the graduation rates, the bar passage rates, and the percentage of those employed 9 months after graduation. </p>

<p>Now, I’ll grant that she might be able to increase her LSAT by studying…but I think she should look at her “worst case” scenario. Then rerun the numbers assuming she can up her score by 10 points after studying. It may be that she is one of those who can hit if off the charts after studying a lot–it can happen, but usually it doesn’t. Ten points is being generous. </p>

<p>I’d also make VERY sure that my kid had a MUCH better reason for wanting to go to LS than those you have articulated in your posts. I’m not saying that she doesn’t–just that the reasons you’ve stated aren’t enough, IMO. </p>

<p>Then, before she invested the time and money, I’d make sure she got some kind of job in the field, working as a paralegal or in some other capacity in the legal field for at least one full year and preferably two, to make sure this is what she really wants to do and ALSO to make the kind of contacts that might lead to a job after LS graduation. </p>

<p>I realize that I may sound rude, but please believe me when I say that I am sincerely trying to help. Your post suggests that you think that if your D can just get into LS, all will be well. That’s really not the case…and I just want to make sure you realize that. LOTS of people go to lower ranked law schools and don’t graduate at all or graduate at the bottom of the class and can’t get jobs. Coming out of a lower tiered school, it REALLY helps to have work experience before LS. Sometimes too, you can get first and second summer jobs through those contacts. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>sonssecty, does the 2.8 include her grades from the community college?</p>

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<p>BlueDevilMike explained it extremely well - no she will not be doing “math” like calculus or something but there is a reason that Math/Physics majors do best on the LSAT, followed by Philosphy and Economics, and Humanities majors don’t do as well - because strong logical skills are needed. You keep saying your daughter got poor grades because she took some math/science classes - there are plenty of students who major in those subjects and do extremely well. A 2.8 is on the low end, and with a Sociology major it looks worse.</p>

<p>But no one can really tell you anything until your daughter takes the LSAT. that will make such a huge difference, the LSAT is looked at just as much as GPA, so tell your daughter not to give up! if she does well on the LSAT then it will help her get into a decent Law school. However, low LSAT score + 2.8 probably won’t get her into any decents schools. 3 months from now this whole situation will probably be very clear - best of luck to you and your daughter!</p>

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<p>I would dissent from BlueDevilMike when he diminishes the history essay.</p>

<p>Especially in upper division history courses, history writing becomes particularly argumentative as one is expected to clearly state and logically support one’s case for a particular interpretation of historical events. That’s the reason a small number of history majors (relative to, say, political science majors) score eighth highest on the LSAT. My anecdotal observation is that history majors seem to out-perform other majors in law school classes such as Property and Wills and Trusts.</p>

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<p>Anyone from an ABA accredited law school can do just fine. I know plenty of lawyers who went to 2nd and 3rd tier schools who have nice carreers making $200,000 or more. A person with a good sense of right and wrong, I believe is how you put it, could make a fine prosecutor. And senior prosecutors in major cities and make around $150,000 with great benefits. She might not be wealthy as had she graduated from Harvard or Stanford but still a decent carreer.</p>

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<p>Social science majors scored higher on average on the LSAT in this 1994 study than engineering majors: [Average</a> LSAT Scores for 29 Majors with over 400 Students Taking the Exam](<a href=“http://www.uic.edu/cba/cba-depts/economics/undergrad/table.htm]Average”>Business | University of Illinois Chicago)</p>

<p>The study includes 29 majors; I’ve excerpted 12 below.</p>

<p>1994-95 rank
Major Average score
Number of students
1991-92 rank
Average score
Number of students</p>

<p>1 Physics/ Math 157.6 689 1 157.2 634<br>
2 Philosophy/ Religion 156.0 1,884 2 155.9 1,547<br>
3 Economics 155.3 2,916 3 155.7 4,157<br>
4 International Relations 155.1 1,546 4 154.9 1,213<br>
5 Chemistry 154.5 893 7 154.7 601<br>
6 Government/ Service 154.4 812 8 154.4 702<br>
7 Anthropology/ Geography 154.1 898 4 155.1 708<br>
8 History 154.0 5,819 9 154.4 5,080<br>
9 English 153.7 6,324 10 153.9 5,698<br>
10 Biology 153.6 1,858 12 153.5 1,519<br>
11 Other Social Science 153.2 2,609 11 153.9 742<br>
12 Engineering 152.7 2,656 6 154.7 2,536 </p>

<p>These averages are quite closely clustered together, however. Less than two points separate the fifth highest major from the twelfth highest. And given the far greater numbers of people with history, English, and political science degrees taking the LSAT who achieve high scores is far greater than the number of high scoring physics, math, and philosophy students.</p>

<p>OP: if your daughter is really interested in practicing law, she should spend a few months prepping for the LSAT, and see how she does. Once she has her score, she’ll be in a much better position to judge her chances with law school admissions, and make a more informed decision.</p>

<p>I’ve known some lawyers from second and third tier schools who make decent money, but I’ve also known plenty of lawyers who went to top tier schools who don’t. The number of graduates from ABA accredited law schools each year significantly exceeds the number of salaried positions available for new lawyers. A significant percentage start work as sole practitioners, not out of a desire to be self-employed, but rather because they have no other options.</p>

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<p>^ No offense, that is useful information of course, but how is it at all relevant to the OP’s concerns? She is worried her daughter won’t get into Law School, and she didn’t even pick any of those majors above, she studied Sociology. Like I said, I would wait until the daughter takes the LSAT before leaping to any conclusions. Maybe Sociology majors don’t perform the highest, but that doesn’t mean this person won’t do well on the test.</p>

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<p>Not to stray too far off topic, but while it is certainly possible and often occurs that someone from a second or third tier law school ends up making a nice amount of money as a lawyer, there are just as many (if not more) graduates who struggle just to pay back their law school loans. There are a significant number of lawyers who can’t find jobs upon graduation from law school, and these unemployed lawyers are much more likely to come from lower ranked law schools. In this economy, no one is completely safe.</p>