I read many stats of students who got in and those who got denied at UCLA in 2015 and noticed the following:
Stats of those who got into Engineering School, especially Computer Science and other majors vs. Humanities majors are not even close. It was not uncommon to see applicants with excellent stats (GPA, good AP and SAT Subject test scores and test scores) to be denied. Almost no one I read got accepted to Engineering Majors without very good stats. But in Humanities major, I often noticed that applicants with below 2,000 SAT score or below 31 ACT score and 3.5 GPA got accepted. My conclusion: It's like two different schools.
I sometimes saw applicants whose stats and ECs were not all that great get accepted due to their Personal Statement, but almost all of these people applied as Humanities majors. I feel it's sort of unfair for applicants who just had very good Personal Statements get into UCLA, but that's life, I guess.
UCLA should really have two separate Profiles for Engineering and Humanities majors because the standards are so different IMO. I have no idea if the above observations apply to other UC universities. My observations also corresponds to what happened to some kids I know personally. They had excellent stats but got denied from Computer Science departments at UCLA and UC Berkeley. I sort of feel sorry for STEM applicants.
Do you have a link for the info? I’ve seen the freshman profile but I haven’t seen the stats for individual schools. Or is your data just based on CC threads?
I agree. Most Engineering admits at many of the best schools have dramatically better stats than those admitted for humanities. And yes, typically, it is not even close. Engineering is a significantly higher paying field and is therefore more competitive plus it attracts more Asians who have higher scores & GPAs (and before I get accused of reverse racism - there is not even a doubt about this. please read the research out there) so it gets further skewed.
In engineering admissions, only grades, scores, a mathematical aptitude and a desire to be an engineer should count and I believe regular essays and ECs are not great indicators of success. Do you really care if a NASA rocket scientist has learnt life lessons through Art for example? His job is get the astronauts safely up and back and the closer he is to a computer, the better he is for all of us. Why bother with an essay? Will it help him design a better manifold? There should be a separate admission process for engineering majors in particular. The standard applications are pointless. My 1st degree was in Engineering and i find the common app or the UC app format pointless for engineering applicants.
Holistic admissions, meaning essays and ECs are actually the only way to cull from a sea of similarly scoring kids when it comes to Humanities though. SAT scores are actually not great predictors for Humanities etc but beautiful essays absolutely illustrate the intellectual prowess for such students. For students applying to non-STEM non-Business majors, there is no point in using their SAT Math scores for example to determine how good they will be.
Unfortunately such distinctions are hard to make by adcoms poring over thousands of applicants so we have a hodge podge of an admissions process where engineering applicants need to have volunteer hours and SAT Math scores are considered relevant for sociology majors, both of which are wrong. Add to that is the fact that changing majors is easy and is expected to happen for up to 70% of undergraduates and you end up with a holistic approach for all.
@khanam I generally agree. One thing I do disagree though is I think even for STEM majors, I do believe essays should have some small impact in admissions, but I see TOO MANY STEM majors applicants with GREAT academic stats get denied from good schools. One thing that cracks me up about someone who got admitted saying “My essay showed me how passionate I am about my intended major”, where was that passion when it came to doing well in school classes? Lol Unless there is a definite reason why that applicant could not devote as much time and effort in school academics, I would not be that sympathetic to these types of applicants IF I were an admissions officer. Note that I had a 3.0 GPA in high school but got into an Ivy League college, so I am actually speaking against myself here. Lol Also, in any major, passion alone is not going to be enough; you do need discipline to keep at it. Before anyone accuses me of being biased towards engineering majors, I was a Humanities major and my kid is also going to major in Humanities, so I am not speaking on behalf of engineers etc. Just making some observations which surprised me. After seeing stats of some engineer applicants who got rejected from UCLA and similarly ranked or higher ranked schools, I am SO GLAD that my kid is a Humanities major, not that my kid’s academics stats are weak. I joke with my kid by telling him “You should thank me for passing down to you my Humanities genes.”
I wonder how easy or hard it is to change from a Humanities major to a STEM major in UCLA? How about from one Humanities major to another Humanities major? Or from let’s say English Lit major to Business Major?
@websensation yup. pretty much agree with your points as well. especially about the kid who tries to use a sudden found passion as an ameliorating factor for bad grades. that is just bogus.
on your other question, it is typically very very hard if not impossible to switch to an engineering major midstream at highly ranked colleges. switching within humanities is quite easy. sometimes switching to business is also tough - like at UCB Haas. But not as impossible as suddenly deciding to be an engineer.
@khanam One more question if I may. When a student applies as “Undeclared”, does this mean he can decide to pursue any major, including Humanities, Engineering or Business? Or does this mean he can choose ANY major in Humanities area only? When do you have to choose or declare your major? Thanks in advance to anyone who knows the answer.
@websensation At UCLA, you apply to College of Letters and Sciences for humanities or College of Engineering if you wish to study Engineering. I am quite certain you can be an undeclared humanities admit or could be an undeclared engineering major but you can not be undeclared period - they do not give you the ability to decide to be an engineering major midway. different colleges. different freshman classes. you can declare your major later on but in the field/college you were admitted.
Engineering is harder than Letters and Sciences at every single UC, but the disparity is the greatest for the top two - UCB and UCLA.
As an example, looking at the transfer admission profile, we see an average accepted GPA of 3.87 for engineering but 3.69 for L&S, even though the engineering applicants had to take harder classes like 4-5 math classes, 2-3 physics classes, 1-2 chemistry classes, etc. While that may not seem like a huge difference, keep in mind that a student with a 3.87 GPA has lost only 0.13 GPA pts, while the 3.69 student has lost 0.31 which is more than twice the amount.
As another example, Berkeley’s average UC GPA for engineering majors was 4.46 in 2011, back when the overall average was around 4.25. That 0.2 GPA difference is about the same as the difference between UCB L&S and UCSD L&S. As you said, engineering and L&S may as well be different schools when it comes to admissions.
@goldenbear2020 I guess the effect of what you are saying and what I noticed is that so-called Freshmen Profiles are very deceiving if you are applying as a Humanities major in that the stats (GPA and SAT or ACT) of Humanities major Freshmen will be substantially lower than the stats of Engineer major Freshmen. This also corresponds from what happened to some people I know: Applicants with very high GPA and 2350 SAT score (and not bad EC) got rejected from Computer Science majors at both UCLA and UC Berkeley. Ridiculous! The person went to another UC engineering school and is getting all As.
@websensation@goldenbear2020 I think for humanities it also has to do with your passion for the subject. Grades are important but probably not as much as they are for engineering. Do you guys think it’s the same case for a non eingineering stem major, like bio? Personally, I have a low GPA for UCLA when you compare it to the freshman profile (3.8 UW/4.33 W) but I think I have demonstrated a very strong passion for my major (undeclared life sciences) through a rigorous course load, academic and non academic EC’s and passionate essays. Despite this, I’ve noticed that, at least from college confidential posts, UCLA tends to look at numbers more, so how holistic is the whole process really? Have I screwed myself over for UCLA because of my GPA, or should the other parts of my application still give me a chance? I’d really appreciate any feedback on this.
Thanks, and good luck!!!
@bruin2020 I think with 3.8 UW GPA, you stand a good chance to get into your major, as long as other items are pretty strong. Even if you have SAT score lower than 2,000, I would say you have a decent chance to get admitted at your major. My point for engineer applicants is this: Doesn’t doing very well in Honors/AP science and math classes in high school demonstrate your passion in this area? Do you have to say in your essay that you are passionate about this area? For me, how the applicant performed over many years counts more than showing your passion in one dinky essay UNLESS the applicant won some prestigious award.
@websensation I totally agree. I have a lot of friends applying for engineering at UCLA and UCB this year and the amount of math and physics classes they take is insane. However, I guess that would be the case across the board for engineering applicants to the top engineering schools. So based on that, I would guess that the admissions officers are looking for more than passion for the field inside the classroom, because its more than likely that most applicants are doing well in all the AP/college math and physics classes that they take. But to be honest, I don’t really know what 17 year old high school kids could do to show their passion for engineering other than working hard in school and maybe taking up an internship at a tech firm, or writing a moving 500 word essay. Even then, would this be enough for UCLA, where the engineering acceptance rate is hovering right above 10%?
@bruin2020 I know one applicant who got 2350 SAT and very high GPA with many AP/Honors classes (NMSF also) and ran Cross Country for 4 years (this is very time consuming activity) and got denied from Comp Sci at UCLA and UC Berkeley. He’s getting all As at another UC. Yeah, he wasn’t a genius or anything but he was a smart kid in science. He’s exactly the type of kid who should get accepted from engineering schools at UCLA and UC Berkeley.
My problem with the admission process is that colleges don’t care about how respectful, courteous, kind and compassionate a person is but just wants to know the obstacles and passion. IMO, every hard working student is passionate about his or her area.
After speaking to an admissions counselor, this is in fact true to a certain extent. The engineering college is harder to get into than the College of Letters and Sciences. Yet, a very important thing to note: UCLA does not consider the major when giving a decision- they only consider the college to which you are applying to.
@websensation I agree, I feel like in that way, the admissions process is flawed because aside from reading the essays, the admissions officers don’t have a way to judge an applicants personality. And again back to the issue of hardworking students, you can see how competitive the engineering applicant pool is. I doubt that a humanities major or even a life science major for that fact would need a 4.60 for UCLA (75th percentile according to the freshman profile). I feel like those numbers are skewed as a result of the engineering applicants extremely competitive profiles.
Maybe there were other factors that were against your friend. Have you read that article on OOS admissions from UC? That article states that in the past, UCLA tends to have a higher acceptance rate for OOS students because their OOS tuition is helping to pay for in state students. The article also says that this year, UCLA is likely to have a higher OOS admit rate in order to counter the fact that they will no longer be offering need based financial aid to OOS, which will significantly drive down the number of OOS who actually enroll. So perhaps, if your friend was in state, this could have been a big thing against him?
@bruin2020 Yes, my friend was a CA resident. But UCs not accepting exceptional students like him is a travesty IMO. Personally, it’s a joke. Essay may provide a way to judge how well you write or how persuasive you are, but essay does not allow the admission officer to see your character, perseverance, etc. IMO those qualities are more important to succeed in life.
@websensation I agree. Unfortunately, we can’t do anything about it. Admissions overall can be random so I guess the best we can do now is wait for March 20th. Good luck!!!