My kids are in 9th and 8th - planning Qs

Parents Forum
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<p>I've got 3 kids - 9th, 8th, 4th grade. Thinking more about colleges recently, and wanted to bounce a few Qs and thoughts off the group.</p>

<p>Background: In large midwestern city. Kids are bright - I estimate ACT scores will be in the 31-36 range, GPAs strong (obviously, this is VERY preliminary, but based on various standardized testing and grades to date). It may be a little early to be thinking about college stuff much, but it seems that some decisions made now will have impact on the college application process 3-4 years down the road.</p>

<p>I've read some books (including A is for Admission) and internet stuff already, and have a general picture of the lay of the land, even if some of the details are a little murky.</p>

<p>The high school our oldest is in (and our others are on track for) is a fairly large suburban public high school, with above average test scores, but that is somewhat light on super-high achievers - national merit semi-finalists, kids appying to HYP, etc. Most kids go to college, but mostly to the flagship state U (which is ok but not great) and various lesser regional schools. I think our kids are capable of much more and want to chart a course that makes this possible. </p>

<p>A good point for our HS is that there are many AP courses available, and our kids will be in challenge classes with a stronger subset of the kids. </p>

<p>Our finances are good and we can consider a lot of options that may be expensive (but of course we don't want to spend foolishly.)</p>

<p>Issues:
1) GPA. One option we've considered, mainly for our 8th grader, is a nearby private school. The school would be more rigorous than the local public in various ways, with a high caliber student body as well. One drawback is that, on a visit, I was told and shown some data that their grading is quite low - i.e. lots of Bs and very few As, despite the very strong students they have. Bottom line, I think if our 8th grader went here, he'd get perhaps an unweighted 3.2 GPA vs. 3.8 or 3.9 at the public, despite probably working harder and learning more. </p>

<p>My reading so far suggest that college do not adequately normalize GPAs to the averages of the school in question, especially when the average kid at that school is very strong academically. I realize that elite private northeastern schools send lots of kids to Ivies, but the school we'd be considering is quite small and probably far less known to the Ivies. Their record on college matriculations is decent but not stellar (less than I'd expect given the student body and the apparent quality of the education they impart).</p>

<p>Q: Am I right to be scared of this place with low absolute GPAs and where class rank, if given, would be normed against a particularly strong student body?</p>

<p>2) Independent Guidance Counselors. I would consider something like this, but don't especially want a full on 4 year smothering of our kid, nor a 5 figure bill from a counselor. In any case, I'm not sure how prevalent they are in our area. </p>

<p>Qs: What do folks think of indie GCs? If you've worked with one, how did you find them? </p>

<p>3) I've seen data showing plunging admit rates at the most selective colleges in recent years. Yet I doubt that the population of graduating HS kids is that much different now from 5/10/15 years ago, and I suspect similar proportions gets 2300+ SATs, etc. </p>

<p>Q: Has the bar really gotten higher at the elite colleges, or are falling admit rates merely because more long shot kids are applying, and/or kids are applying to more schools?</p>

<p>4) There's a lot of chatter about what matters, and how much, for admission - GPA vs. tests (including APs, SAT subject tests etc) vs ECs (and <em>which</em> ECs matter) vs other stuff. As much as possible, I'd like to read accounts from as close to the source as possible - i.e. folks who worked in admissions offices at elite schools, relatively recently (last 5-10 years, ideally). I know of the A is for Admission book. I read a different book from a reporter who spent time at the Wellesely (I think? or was it Wesleyan?) admissions office. </p>

<p>Q: I'm wondering if there are other such books or on-line accounts that I should check out?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for answers, thoughts and suggestions.</p>

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<p>Your oldest kid is on 8th grade? It’s fine to think about things but really, projecting ACT scores out four years is a bit much. </p>

<p>Your child should get the best possible,grades,regardless of the school he/she attends. At this point, ECs should be ones that are of interest to your CHILD, not to build a resume for potential colleges.</p>

<p>There are 3000 or so colleges in this country…not all are in the top 50, or top 100 even. Your child can get an excellent college education, and have a bright future career even if not attending an “elite” college. </p>

<p>It sounds like you are aspiring for elite colleges only. I would strongly urge you to relax a bit. Perhaps this will be the way your kids will head, but if not, their lives are not over. </p>

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<p>You are out here already… save your money for tuition and do it yourself, honesty. There is SO MUCH good information out here, and a lot of great experience (some of it hard earned) by the parent population in particular.</p>

<p>Regarding your questions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I would say the high school choice depends on your kids. If they are self starters who will work hard and get the most out of any environment they are in, consider the public school. If they don’t work so hard unless pushed by others around them, then consider the private. My 2 kids went the private/independent route. Worked well for them, but having that money for college also would have been nice… I would say you should not be so worried about GPA. My youngest had a 3.7 UW GPA (not super high by CC standards, and her class rank was barely in the top 10%), but got in everyplace she applied, partly because she had great test scores. Including U of Chicago, Swarthmore, and Harvey Mudd. Not sure her test scores would have been as strong if she had attended the local public school. But there is no one answer. If your kids do attend the public school, make sure you are on top of making sure they do test prep, starting the college search in a timely manner, be sure they take the PSAT for NMF consideration, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>Independent counselors - see above. Use CC… The one area where we considered a private counselor was for D2’s essays. I gave her the option for us to hire a private counselor we knew to work with her on her essays, but she elected to have me as her reviewer instead. But in some families the dynamics are such that a counselor might be a good idea for that component. I guess if there is a lot of conflict in your search (with spouse, kid, etc.), then that might be another reason to do that. </p></li>
<li><p>There are tons of threads out here on why admission rates are dropping. The bar is somewhat higher. Example, most kids take standardized tests more times to get higher scores, kids/parents know that stellar & interesting extra curricular activities help, etc. The Common App has been a huge driver, it is easier to apply to more schools. You do have to be quite disciplined about having reach, match, and safety schools that the kid really wants to attend and you can afford on the list. Those safeties and matches can be harder to find. so plan to spend a fair amount of time on that part of the search.</p></li>
<li><p>There are a few parents out here who work in admissions, and a lot of us who have been through it multiple times. I don’t think it is as cryptic as you think it is. One source you may find useful is the Common Data Set that almost every college makes available. It gives info on what each college considers most important, along with a lot of information on stats for admitted students, enrolled students, financial aid, merit aid, etc. Google “<school name=”"> Common Data Set" to find them.</school></p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Yes, relax! I really think that parents hovering over their kids, worrying about college at this stage, does more harm than good. Trust me, you’ll figure that out after a kid or two. My youngest of three kids is in 11th grade. I don’t hassle her AT ALL, and she has repeatedly thanked me for that. She told me, “Mom, thanks for not nagging me! I have friends whose parents do that constantly, and it just makes them made. The parents check their grades online every day!” My daughter might not get into Harvard, but she runs cross country, plays jazz piano, studied in Spain for a semester, etc. - all activities that SHE pursued.</p>

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<p>I always tell people that eighth or ninth grade isn’t too early to think about college, just too early to obsess about it. ;)</p>

<p>1) You ask good questions and have good instincts. I’m wondering where you got the information about the high schools – word of mouth or something concrete? One thing I would do is to find the high school profile for both schools to make sure that your research/assumptions are correct. Does the private (or public, for that matter) even report class rank? So many don’t these days, so the fear of the GPA might be less worrisome.</p>

<p>2) I know some people who have used private college counselors and were really happy and some who were disappointed. I think you need to be really clear about your needs/expectations if you decide to go there. That said, you are starting plenty early. Keep hanging around on cc, and you’ll easily be able to do this yourself (I did, twice, thanks to cc!). One thing I advise people is to find a HS parent buddy, someone with an upperclassman or grad who can teach you the ropes of that particular school.</p>

<p>3) I do believe the bar has gotten higher, in part because the Common App allows kids to just click another box to apply to another college (and additional essays at some). But I also think we as a college-going culture have “professionalized” being a student. It’s like youth sports. Do any kids (besides mine) just play for fun anymore? It’s private lessons and pricey club teams for so many these days, like all those kids are going to the Olympics. Likewise, parents with means are paying for tutors and test prep and spending all kinds of money to make their kids “competitive” – like they all are going to an Ivy. That doesn’t mean you have to play along …</p>

<p>4) I didn’t read a single book when my kids were going through this. cc was enough!</p>

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<p>Even if the high school doesn’t report rank, the GC is asked to estimate the rank within a series of ranges. But I agree that it is not the most pressing item in the application. Top colleges would rather have a kid who is in the 10% or even 15% range and is intellectual, interesting, and engaged than an automaton at the top of the class who never took any risks or following their own interests.</p>

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<p>It’s interesting that you seem to be interested in the private school for your second child but not your first.</p>

<p>Could this be because there is something about the atmosphere at the public school that might be wrong for your second child, even though it is not a problem for your oldest?</p>

<p>I ask because the decision to spend a considerable amount of money on private school is an important one. Money spent on private high school is money that is not available for college. And the GPA issue you raise may be important, too. So I’m curious about why you are considering private school for one child but not the other.</p>

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<p>Some quick follow ups:</p>

<p>Oldest is 9th grade, next is 8th grade. As I said in the OP, there are at least some decisions and choices over the next 12 months that will have potential college admissions implications. I don’t think it’s too early to get informed.</p>

<p>Reason why private school is a greater consideration for 8th grader than 9th grader. Complex - more than I want to go into now - some academic issues, some social ones. The kids are not the same, and the 8th grader is closer to a fit, IMO, for this school than the 9th grader. This school is a 15-20 minute drive and a place I feel culturally comfortable with. The next closest strong private schools are more like 30 minute drives and somewhat less of a cultural fit, so this one is the only one getting at least semi-strong consideration by us, at the moment. </p>

<p>Information on test results of our own high school is readily available from a state website, as is comparative information for other publics in our state. Private school info is generally from the schools themselves. For the private where I’m considered about grade levels, I was shown a histogram of their grading, and it did strike me as severe, along with some direct feedback during a visit along the lines of “we are fighting against grade inflation here”. So be it, but if their stand hurts their kids significantly in the college admissions process, it’s a concern for me.</p>

<p>FWIW, I don’t think HYP and the like are the only viable options for our kids. But, I want them to have their options open - to be in a position all-around as an applicant to aim for the top colleges, if their test scores and academic success in HS support that, and if they want that.</p>

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<p>MWDad:</p>

<p>Congrats on your early start to educating yourself about this long, complex process.</p>

<p>I first discovered CC when my oldest was in 10th grade (4 yrs ago) and had a very steep learning curve. IMO, this is the perfect time to start thinking about what’s down the road. I agree with many of the posters above that a dedicated CC parent probably understands more of the nuance of the college admissions process than some independent counselors.</p>

<p>Difficult to advise what to do for your 8th grader, but my children attend a significantly grade deflated private HS and
they are evaluated against the grade inflated local public school so that’s always tough. Its something to think about.</p>

<p>In no order, other things to keep in mind:</p>

<p>1) Assist your children to become involved with ECs that will interest them for 4 years. Better if they can establish interest in something outside of the norm.</p>

<p>2) Starting this summer for your 9th grader - have him/her do one interesting thing each summer - summer camp on a college campus, online course, job, foreign travel, summer course for credit at a local CC, etc. You’ll find mention of all of these things on their specific forums there.</p>

<p>3) Starting mid-way through 10 th grade, accumulate the most recommended SAT/ACT prep books (you’ll find them in the forums) and have your child commit 30 - 60 minutes/week to review. It will be different because of the new test but always better to start the preparation early. Then in summer between 10th and 11th they can concentrate on practice tests so they are ready to get SAT/ACT done earlier in junior year before most get busy with subject tests and multiple AP exams. Formal test prep can be useful or needed but plenty of kids do well on their own.</p>

<p>4) visit a few colleges in summer after 10th grade to gauge general interest</p>

<p>5) continue viewing the different forums/threads here on CC - if you follow “latest posts” regularly you’ll see what time of year certain topics become more important! Also, click on specific colleges this December and again through the spring and you’ll be able to follow the general qualifications of the kinds of kids that get in to those schools.</p>

<p>6) be sure you’re children (if they’re able) take the most rigorous academic course load offered at their HS</p>

<p>Remember that all kids are different and you know best whether your child needs guidance and gentle reminders, direct supervision, or if you can be completely hands off and they’ll do everything on their own. Some students occasionally need to be “nagged” and that is not a bad thing.</p>

<p>Congrats, again, on being so proactive and wanting to assist your children with having the most options available to them. On a lighter note, The Neurotic Parents Guide to College Admission is a fun read .</p>

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<p>I think in comparing the schools, you should look at what EC’s are available and whether they will be a good fit for your child. A small private school may not offer the opportunities available at the larger school. On the other hand, at a large school, EC’s can be so competitive that your child may be shut out of participation. </p>

<p>You also need to consider that in the large public school, I assume your kids would be mostly in honors/AP classes, and so in comparing the student bodies, you should be more concerned with whether there’s a big difference in the peers they will have in class every day. The colleges attended by kids who are never in their academic core classes really don’t matter. The question is whether there is a large enough intellectual peer group in the large public school or whether they will feel intellectually isolated. With one child in the school already, you should have some idea about this, but you can also look at indicators like National Merit results, student participation in academic-type EC’s (eg. Science Olympiad, Math team, Quiz bowl) and what level of success they have. Also look at AP test results. </p>

<p>You should not be too quick to judge the quality of the students based on colleges attended. If your community is in the doughnut income bracket, there may be students who were admitted to elite schools but chose the state school for financial reasons, or students who didn’t even apply to elite schools because they felt they could not afford them, and went straight for the state school or large merit scholarships. I know some of the best students from our school were in situations like this.</p>

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<p>What colleges do graduates at the private school attend? If you are concerned about grade deflation, then find out if you can see Naviance plots for the private school’s applicants to the state flagship and highly selective colleges.</p>

<p>Perhaps another thing to consider is that if the public and private schools offer AP courses, how do students in the AP courses do on the AP tests? If A students in the AP courses usually score 1 on the AP tests, that indicates that the quality of the AP courses is poor. But if the A students in the AP courses usually score 5 on the AP tests, that is a better sign.</p>

<p>But also note that most midwestern state flagships are good places for most top students. You may be underestimating the educational opportunities that your kids find at such schools.</p>

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<p>Q: Has the bar really gotten higher at the elite colleges, or are falling admit rates merely because more long shot kids are applying, and/or kids are applying to more schools?</p>

<p>T1)he colleges know that more kids applying and the same amount getting in gives a higher selectivity rating. So my 1990 SAT girl gets mail from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc even though she has almost no chance of getting in. But then students may think “hey, they are interested in me!” and might apply anyway, thereby increasing the number of applicants. </p>

<p>2) Also, with the Common App, it is easier to apply to more colleges than it was back when I went to school (late 80s)</p>

<p>3) Many colleges send “fee waivers” so you say “why not, won’t cost me anything”</p>

<p>4) With the internet, it is easier to find more information about more colleges and therefore you may apply to more.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Some of the elite colleges’ good financial aid policies may be attracting more applications.</p>

<p>Population growth over the decades has been faster than capacity growth at elite colleges.</p>

<p>With more people attaining bachelor’s degrees, there may be more desire among some to distinguish themselves by going to an elite college, rather than just any college.</p>

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<p>Many great responses so far, so will just add my thoughts on this question:</p>

<p>Q: Has the bar really gotten higher at the elite colleges, or are falling admit rates merely because more long shot kids are applying, and/or kids are applying to more schools?</p>

<p>I think the increased competition can be attributed to many factors:</p>

<ol>
<li> Availability of information on the internet, so greater access.</li>
<li> Significantly improved FA policies at top schools since 2008 or so. Elite college education now possible for low income families. Still not easy, but more possible than before the changes to the FA policies, so more are applying.</li>
<li> As noted by others, increased & earlier focus on standardized test scores. If you pull the admission stats from selective colleges, you will see the slow upward creep in accepted students’ test scores.</li>
<li> International students apply to the ‘names’ they know, so while international student acceptance rates are lower than the university’s overall acceptance rate, their applications contribute to the declining admit rates as they inflate the denominator more than the numerator.</li>
</ol>

<p>I agree with youdon’tsay’s ‘professionalization’ comment. </p>

<p>Students at my son’s school were coming into cafeteria during first week of school looking to sign up for PSAT. Parent volunteers sit in cafeteria during first week to help with lunch account registration or school photos, but not PSAT registration in late August.</p>

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<p>At our school all students were registered for the PSAT (in fact, they did it for both 10th & 11th grade). Private school.</p>

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<p>intparent – most students at the school do take the PSAT in 10th and 11th, but it is a public school and the students pay to take the Saturday exam. Local private schools administer exam during the school day on the Wed prior.</p>

<p>My point was simply that students were already anxious about missing PSAT registration, and it was only the first week of school!</p>

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<p>Hi. Have them prepare for PSAT. I didn’t know about National Merit Scholarships until it was too late.</p>

<p>Read the book How to be a High School Superstar by Cal Newport. I think the book offers some healthy, much needed common sense for students and parents regarding EC’s and students finding their passion. </p>

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<p>You’ve gotten good advice but I’ll chime in. Get your financial house in order. Now. Not in a year, now. There are many terrific options for kids and many wonderful ways to get a strong college education for kids at both ends of the financial spectrum, but sad to say, your kids will have many more options if you all know what your finances looks like and what, if anything, you can do in the next couple of years to pad that college savings account.</p>

<p>You will occasionally read here someone whining that they were “penalized” for saving for college but that is very unusual. By and large, college expect you to pay your end of the bill in three ways- past income (savings), present income (your current cash flow) and future income (loans.) Your kids can work, get merit scholarships, join ROTC, take out loans in their own names, etc. but parents of kids your age are generally shocked to see that a work study job for 10 hours a week and a nice summer job is not going to make a meaningful dent in the family contribution. A start- but not a meaningful dent.</p>

<p>So don’t wait until junior year to figure out that you’ve got nothing saved. If you can’t save for whatever reason, the posters here can help you eliminate schools which your kids are bound to fall in love with but which you can’t afford. So take those schools off the radar.</p>

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<p>The other thing to consider is to teach your kids that money is not infinite (perhaps by example). Some kids apparently have gotten their every wish provided for by their parents without any indication of how much it costs or that they may have to make choices in context of the costs, and are rudely shocked in their senior year when they have to face cost limitations on their college choices.</p>

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<p>I agree that it is definitely a good time to start educating yourself about the admissions scene and keeping an eye on your oldest two in terms of ECs and academics. It is important, though to try to conceal any angst you might feel from them. You can vent here. :)</p>

<p>I think it is important to encourage kids to explore, especially at this stage. If they find things they love, they will pursue them. Sometimes kids need a little push to give something a try, but constant pushing is not good. And, as you say, kids are different, and need some different things from you, too.</p>

<p>Regarding the private school, harder grading does not necessarily translate to better education, nor does the mere fact of being private. If the graduates of the school are consistently attending lesser colleges, and attendees at elites are rare, it probably means that they do not have connections with the regional admissions reps at the elites. If they were a strong school, I believe they would have. (BTW, this is illustrated in the book you read: The Gatekeepers. The admissions person the reporter followed was from Wesleyan. :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>I strongly doubt that you need a private admissions counselor at this stage. You can get whatever you need here for free. </p>