My son doesn't want to go where he got merit awards

Parents Forum
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<p>Blossom: I have no data. Probably I’m completely off base. Two examples come immediately to mind. Is it possible to get into a top math PhD program if you didn’t accelerate in HS? Is it possible to get into a top classics PhD program if you never took Latin or Greek until college? As you point out, a third tier program may not be worthwhile. And I am imagining a student who only has the luxury of attending college for four years. Who is the student who only becomes interested in math or classics in college competing with for those few PhD spots?</p>

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<p>This is what I think makes sense. Just study whatever you enjoy.</p>

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<p>^^^
Call me naive, but I refuse to believe that someone’s high school course schedule determines what they are able to achieve academically after high school.</p>

<p>Edited to add: Note the word “determines.” Affects? Sure. Makes the road easier or harder. Fine. But DETERMINES? Data could convince me. But it’d have to be mighty good data.</p>

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<p>FWIW, my niece was very challenged in math in HS but was able to double-major with it in college. Don’t think it held her back but she has not used it other than in tutoring since & has gotten a job with the city through her mom’s friend.</p>

<p>Back to the original question, I agree with sending the desired U the merit offer from competing U and explaining that they are really the first choice but the family needs to be realistic, especially with another kid in the wings and would appreciate any merit aid that could be offered to sweeten the pot. This is done with varying degrees of success fairly often. It works some times and not others. Especially when the Us are considered competitors, it tends to work better. </p>

<p>I’d suggest doing it sooner than later, while there still may be some merit funds remaining to be distributed.</p>

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<p>There is an assumption in this forum that college grads continue on to grad schools. With the exception of those who are interested in academia or medicine, what is the reason for going for grad school? For more knowledge or to enhance employment opportunities?
If the typical college grads find good employment after the BA, will they go on to grad schools?</p>

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<p>Does this mean that Reed and Haverford don’t prepare students well for the job market while MIT and Cal Tech grads find employment after graduation and it eliminates the need for further education?</p>

<p>I agree with blossom that higher ed plays a role in marketing grad degrees which may not result in better employment opportunities.</p>

<p>Back to the OP, I think there’s a high probability that Kenyon will provide some merit funding if you ask. They had the funds to offer free plane ticket to my D to visit the campus and she never even sent in an application.</p>

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<p>Have also read that getting grad degrees can also make you LESS employable by making you OVER-QUALIFIED for some entry-level positions. This is really bad for folks who went to grad school hoping to get that entry-level job they didn’t get when they just had their bachelor’s degree.</p>

<p>If the person goes on to grad school right after the bachelor’s degree, they don’t always have a great understanding of what they REALLY want to pursue–for S, that was why he wanted to get out & work for a while BEFORE deciding if he wanted to continue to grad school.</p>

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<p>In chemistry, 80% of Ph.D.s work in industrial or government settings. The positions offered to a Ph.D. graduate typically feature more independence and more opportunity to direct a group of technicians than do positions offered to B.S. grads. One of my students (large public research university) stopped out for a while with a B.S. and then returned to grad school because she “got tired of working for people who knew less” than she did.</p>

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<p>Yea, we figure that will ultimately drive S back to get his PhD (or at least masters). He knows a great deal already but needs a passion for something he wants to research before he goes back to study. Will see what the future brings. If he stays with the feds, higher education tends to get higher pay as well; they also have a program where they help subsidize their employees getting advanced degrees.</p>

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<p>Um, yes, actually. One of the stars of the classics department at my school last year, who is now enrolled in a PhD program at one of the very best departments in his subfield, started learning both Greek and Latin here. The examples my professors can come up with are probably countless, but this one stands out in my mind because I remember reading a short article about his senior thesis.</p>

<p>I think you are overstating the difficulty of getting into a good graduate program in a field you took up in college. Yes, it is hard, because getting into a good graduate program regardless of the field/your background is hard, but it is definitely not impossible if you are willing to work hard and have access to good teaching and advising.</p>

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<p>There are lots of fields that basically require a professional graduate degree for employment and many of these programs provide very little funding for their graduate students. Examples include city management (MPA), social work (MSW), urban planning (MS), environmental science (MS), some public policy work (MPP), student affairs higher education administration (MA), cultural resource management/archaeology (MS), school counselor, librarian (MLS), and lots of others I do not know about.</p>

<p>If your kid has an eye towards any of these careers, it may be wise to set aside some money for grad school.</p>

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<p>I’m usually in favor of an approach that tells the kid, “we can contribute ___ per year toward your education for four years and still afford do the same for your siblings.” It sounds like the OP has tacitly set that limit at a level that would cover full cost, and is now observing that a lot of money could be saved at one of the other excellent choices.</p>

<p>Money can be kind of abstract for high school seniors. The difference between 20K and 60K in loans, or the presence/absence of parental funds for grad/professional school when continued schooling is hypothetical, don’t have the same impact as, “That’s my dream school! It’s perfect!”</p>

<p>At this point, banking the savings for your son for any reasonable purpose after undergrad school is one possibility, or even sharing the savings in some manner. A kid doesn’t necessarily have the right to choose the most expensive college even if his parents can more or less afford it. Families do have other financial priorities and unexpected needs can arise. Letting the student share in some of the higher costs (or savings) may make sense.</p>

<p>One good thing: statistics show that the vast majority of students end up happy at the college they attend, even if it wasn’t their first choice. Still, “forcing” kids to go to a school they don’t want to attend by not supporting some choices financially isn’t without risk. I think it’s best to frame the problem in terms of, "here’s what we will pay for (and, if there are costs/benefits to the student that depend on the choice, what those are), and let the student decide.</p>

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<p>Your post is certainly a good advertisement for Reed!</p>

<p>Here is the first page of classics post-bac programs from a google search. They prepare the late starters for graduate school. </p>

<p>[Classical</a> Studies Programs | Penn LPS](<a href=“http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/postbac/classics]Classical”>http://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/postbac/classics)</p>

<p>[Georgetown</a> University - Department of Classics](<a href=“http://classics.georgetown.edu/postbac.html]Georgetown”>http://classics.georgetown.edu/postbac.html)</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.uclaextension.edu/r/ProgramDetails.aspx?reg=CF333[/url]”>https://www.uclaextension.edu/r/ProgramDetails.aspx?reg=CF333&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>[Post-Baccalaureate</a> Program in Classics ? Department of Classics](<a href=“http://classics.unc.edu/academics/post-baccalaureate]Post-Baccalaureate”>Post Baccalaureate | Department of Classics)</p>

<p>[Classics</a> Certificate Program | School of Continuing Education](<a href=“http://ce.columbia.edu/Postbaccalaureate-Studies/Classics-Certificate-Programs]Classics”>http://ce.columbia.edu/Postbaccalaureate-Studies/Classics-Certificate-Programs)</p>

<p>[Post-Baccalaureate</a> Certificate Program in Classics — Classics](<a href=“http://classics.ucdavis.edu/post-bac]Post-Baccalaureate”>http://classics.ucdavis.edu/post-bac)</p>

<p>[Post-Baccalaureate</a> Certificate - Department of Classics - College of Liberal Arts & Sciences - The University of Iowa](<a href=“http://www.uiowa.edu/~classics/programs/postbacc/postbaccalaureate.html]Post-Baccalaureate”>http://www.uiowa.edu/~classics/programs/postbacc/postbaccalaureate.html)</p>

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<p>Most proposals seem to be all or nothing … take the merit or allow him to pick his first choice … I’m wondering if there is a solomonic solution somewhere in the middle. Something like … we offered to be full-pay but we have since found out you have an excellent alternative which is $20k/yr cheaper … we’d still like you to have the option of going to your first choice option but would like you to pick up some of the cost differential … we’ll pay for your first choice if you work 8-10 hours a week during school, work during the summer, and take out student loans … I believe this would essentially split the $20k between the student and the parents and not put any undue obligation on the student (essentially even to any student on financial aid).</p>

<p>PS - personally given an offer to pay the full way I would stick to it … if you son had applied to his first choice ED and been accepted would you have paid? If yes, I would have a hard time saying no now … but certainly understand how the money issue plays out in each family is different and there is no absolute right or wrong.</p>

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<p>From my perspective, I don’t think the money is the issue. I think the OP wants her son to learn good judgement and good decision making skills. I would want my son to do this too.</p>

<p>My D got FA from Barnard and Mt. Holyoke and Bard and a few others. Mt. Holyoke’s was the most because she got a leadership scholarship as well. She offered to go to Mt. Holyoke, even though she much preferred Barnard. However, the difference was about $3K a year, and I didn’t feel she should sacrifice her happiness for that much money, especially since school is NYC is much different than school in So. Hadley.</p>

<p>However, I was gratified that she offered.</p>

<p>Maybe the OP wants to make sure that there are good reasons for spending so much more money.</p>

<p>Learning does not just happen in a college classroom.</p>

<p>None of us know. Even though Kenyon and Oberlin are very different schools, I’m sure they have a lot of cross applicants so the student body may not be as different as we might think. However, maybe the environment shapes the student. I’m not sure.</p>

<p>The Obie I’ve known best was DS’s violin teacher who know plays first chair in the West Va. Symphony, or at least did until she left to raise her kids.</p>

<p>She self-identifies as Christian, would not live with her fiance until they were married, and dresses and comports herself in a very decorous, polite, and I might even say old-fashioned manner. (You see I am none of those things, although I did adore Hannah.) She loved her time at Oberlin. We might say, “well, the conservatory is different”, but she was in Arts and Sciences for two years until she was convinced she wanted to up her two hours of practicing a day to four hours and become a professional. (BTW she can be heard playing violin on the Kundun sound track. She made me weep when she played scales.</p>

<p>So, I am not saying that the money isn’t worth it for Kenyon or that the son of the OP is coddled or anything negative. However, this is a real learning opportunity about the relationship of money to value. If he has sound reasons, even if it’s just “I know I could thrive at one place and not another,” that’s one thing. Vague statements about feeling a bit uncomfortable are something else.</p>

<p>I’m sure it’s almost impossible for the OP to parse. It would be for me. Hence the thread.</p>

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<p>I can’t give any advice. It is a tough situation for any parent. We paid more than we could comfortably afford for our first one’s college–not because he pushed, but because we wanted to give him exactly what he wanted. Some rough financial times and some big time issues really hit us hard, and it did not help having the commitment to his school. He did not appreciate it either. We should have been honest and upfront about our issues with him. The other kids all took cost into consideration when we gave them the parameters.</p>

<p>But that doesn’t help you after the fact. How to handle something like this? It depends on the family, the kids, the parents, the relationship. It’s such a "feel your way in the dark " thing. So easy to say, one thing or the other, but living it is a whole other story.</p>

<p>I hope it works out well whatever you end up doing. Good luck.</p>

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<p>I was going to leave this part out of why my D would choose Kenyon over Oberlin, but here goes… we visited Oberlin a couple of weeks ago, and D2 was put off by the fact that many of the students had a body odor problem. She is kind of sensitive to taste, noise, smell (she functions in society, but definitely notices these things). I mentioned this on the Oberlin forum (so have chatted some with others on CC already about this), and would hasten to say that she did love the science tour there. But the unwashed state of too many people put her off from Oberlin. She will not be applying to Oberlin because of this and also two encounters with snarky/rude professors in her class visits. I know other people have had great experiences at Oberlin, and these may not be sufficient reasons to turn down a college like Oberlin to many people. But for her it is.</p>

<p>But it got me thinking. If she hadn’t visited, and HAD applied, would I push her to go there for $80K difference in cost from another LAC? If she went to accepted students day and came back with that report, would I buy her noseplugs and a room deoderizer and tell her to learn to snark back, and send her off? Probably not… but I would probably take a long hard look at OTHER choices she had with merit aid (the OP has said there are others). If her son truly finds Oberlin not acceptable, I would suggest they take one more round of review on his other acceptances, and maybe he choose one other accepted student’s visit to take from his other (less expensive) choices.</p>

<p>And, of course, see if you can leverage Oberlin’s merit offer at Kenyon. :)</p>

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<p>I have to say that I didnt read the entire thread, but skimmed and was shocked to see a post that said that Kenyon and Oberlin are rival schools. I wonder if that is the Midwest opinion of the colleges. Now I will be the first to admit an East Coast bias in myself, but in terms of difficulty getting in, desirability of its graduates in the job market, alumni, etc etc, Oberlin is considered on a much much higher plane than Kenyon. When people (again people I am acquainted with) say so and so is going to Kenyon they do so with an understanding that the kid didnt get in anywhere good. When people say so and so got into Oberlin, its in a congratulatory manner. This is not to disparage Kenyon by any means. Just my two cents and a NYC perspective.</p>

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<p>I think you have already made the mistake of letting your son get too far into the college application process without having a candid financial discussion. For most families where money IS a consideration in the college selection process, that should have been part of the initial discussions you had when he first started to think about potential colleges.</p>

<p>Some colleges are financially beyond what a family can afford and you therefore have to be realistic in narrowing down the options. While it might be too late for your current situation, perhaps others can learn from that as their son/daughter moves through high school.</p>

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<p>Umm, what? Sorry, mhmm, but i think your friends on the East Coast are not well informed.</p>

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<p>Oh, wow, another Midwesterner here who thinks that Kenyon and Oberlin are certainly on par and would give the edge to Kenyon, except for musicians. Maybe the reputations out east are different.</p>

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<p>So . . . if Oberlin were substantially better than Kenyon wouldn’t it be even more probable that Kenyon would revisit their award in light of the Oberlin merit money?</p>