my thoughts on engineering... am i off base?

<p>I am thinking about going into engineering. I have always done really well at math/sciences and they come pretty naturally to me. I want to do an engineering degree so that I can kick ass in any field later on in life. I will never be an engineer, but I am hoping engineering will sharpen my mind to the point where I can do anything and have the tools to succeed in anything.</p>

<p>my dad, for example, got an engineering degree and he was able to work in architecture and now computer programming....</p>

<p>to me, no other degree makes you as verstaile and adaptive to society as an engineering degree....</p>

<p>is it ok to go into engineering if you don't love it and don't want to be an engineer, but you just want to gain the tools??????</p>

<p>Nothing like steel design courses and a thorough understanding of circuit design to help you through a tough day on Wall Street. =&lt;/p>

<p>Reeze,</p>

<pre><code>I have known several people who have had this type of perspective. They have all gone on and done well for themselves. Engineering is a very adaptable degree, you can do all sorts of things with it outside of typical engineering careers. Some go to medical and law school, others start their own business.
</code></pre>

<p>If you don't know what you want to do, an engineering degree is a good choice because it proves that you are at least somewhat intelligent and have a good work effort.</p>

<p>In contrast, I agree with the following, posted by dadofsam on another thread:</p>

<p>"My advice to you and others is to go to engineering school only if you are thinking of becoming an engineer. The coursework is rigorous in any enginering school, so you need to like that subject in order to study it. If your plan is not to become an engineer but to enter business, take some other major, ...."</p>

<p>as well as aibarr's comment above.</p>

<p>You will only be an undergraduate once. To expend this massive investment of time and effort on a largely technical body of knowledge in which you have no interest is quite a sacrifice, and a shame. IMO.</p>

<p>There are easier and more appropriate ways to hone your analytical skills than taking an entire course of studies in something in which you're not interested. Take a couple of computing. science and math classes. Even take an engineering course or two. You don't have to devote your whole course of studies to it to meet your stated objectives. IMO.</p>

<p>It is possible to sharpen your mind in any number of fields or with courses not in your major -- or to do so on your own. I don't think there is anything unique to engineering training that is the key to ultimate versatility. Critical thinking skills can be developed any number of ways -- to name a few: logic and decision analysis courses; intercollegiate debate and forensic competition; regular math and science; social sciences where one has to research, critically analyze the evidence, reach a conclusion and defend it in writing.</p>

<p>Engineers are smart and capable, but others are as well. Also, engineers are not jacks-of-all-trades by any stretch of the imagination. For instance, my husband and I have both had to work with a number of engineers and many of them couldn't express themselves in writing well at all. When I was in law school, quite a few of those who had problems were those that came from engineering. They thought the law should be clearcut, something with understandable rules you just apply and -- bingo -- there is the answer that a judge will reach. Ideas of balancing arguments, sliding scales, shades of gray, and the like drove them crazy. The only engineer I knew that could handle it happened to have debated in high school and college.</p>

<p>In other words, there are different types of skill sets out there. No major is going to cover them all.</p>

<p>I don't mean to bad mouth engineering. My son is an engineering major. But he loves the subject matter. I think it would be very difficult to get through four years of engineering courses if you don't love what it is you are studying. I think he would be the first one to admit that his analytical and persuasive abilities have been honed by debate and forensics, though, not the engineering courses he has taken. And he would much rather take a difficult, high level techie-type course any day than, gasp, have a simple class where he might have to write a paper. </p>

<p>If you like math and science, then take some courses. Try out introductory engineering courses. But do some other things that interest you as well. I think you will be happier finding and pursuing your own passion than studying something that just doesn't thrill you.</p>

<p>Whatever you do, I don't advise going to a college that is primarily for those who know they want to be engineers or the like, unless you are sure you know this is what you want. My brother thought he wanted to be an electrical engineer; one year at RPI changed his mind and he had to transfer elsewhere to study what really interested him. My nephew also thought he wanted to do electrical engineering, but at least he was able to stay at the same school when he found he didn't like it. (I guess third time's a charm -- my son loves electrical engineering!)</p>

<p>You might find a college class during the summer that gives you introductory engineering. My son did this at Carnegie Mellon. He found he liked the subject. But he still wasn't sure enough to go to a lopsided school, opting instead for a college that was strong in any number of fields beyond engineering in case he changed his mind.</p>

<p>DianeR, I think yours is a brilliant post. You have articulated some of my own feelings about it better than I have been able to.</p>

<p>"Shades of gray" : a big issue, from what I've observed at least. And the rest of your points as well.</p>

<p>In principle, I agree with DianeR that one should ideally choose a school that would allow you to explore a wide range of options from which you can shop around and find out what you really like.</p>

<p>However, there are certain realities on the ground that have to be respected. The truth is, sadly, many of the top engineering schools, especially the public schools like Berkeley, greatly restrict the ability to shop around. Basically, if you don't come into Berkeley as a declared engineer, it's very difficult to switch in later. What if you do shop around, discover that you really like, say, EECS, and try to switch into that major, and get denied? Happened to a lot of people that I know. And if you do come in as a declared engineer, your ability to shop around and try on different majors is greatly attenuated. The lower-division curriculum for engineering is quite rigid. </p>

<p>So it leads to the fateful decision that, for these schools, you have to choose engineering while you're applying to the school as a HS senior, which is before you really know what engineering is all about. So basically, you have to commit before you have the information. If you apply as an non-engineer, you run the significant risk of finding out later that you really like engineering but will not be allowed to declare the engineering major. If you apply as an engineer, not only do you lose the ability to really shop around, but you also increase the chances of not getting into that university at all (because engineering admissions tends to be tougher than non-engineering admissions).</p>

<p>To study engineering and not become an engineer is perfectly acceptable. But my caveat is that if you don't like <em>studying</em> engineering in the first place, I would be a little cautious. Most of the people who study engineering and yet do not become an engineer actually like engineering as a field of study.</p>

<p>Ah, sakky, what you mention is the reason my son decided not to apply to Berkeley! When he heard that he had to declare himself on the application he immediately began to dislike the school. Then, at the same informational meeting, they were throwing other bureaucratic stuff at us and he couldn't wait to get out of the room.</p>

<p>No wonder Berkeley students are so prone to protest... I got irked at the school because I asked about OOS homeschoolers (my younger daughter's category at the time) and I swear the woman all but wrinkled her nose. No, you have to follow their application precisely, and have their a to g courses, and get these SAT II scores, and certainly, NO recommendations. Yeesh ... </p>

<p>Not all schools are like this, I assure you. If a student isn't sure and does have to be admitted to engineering college rather than the university as a whole, I suppose it would make sense to go for the engineering. I haven't heard about a problem of switching out of engineering to the regular college, have you? </p>

<p>The OP didn't seem to have an interest in engineering to begin with, though. I don't see the need to fight to get into a top engineering program consequently. </p>

<p>monydad, wow, thanks! Occasional praise like this is all it takes for me to spend WAY to much time on CC. It is so much more fun to give people advice and spout my personal wisdom than, say, do laundry.</p>

<p>Re switching into and/or out of Engineering colleges - sakky and Diane R's posts seem to me right on the mark. My S, too, planned Engineering but wanted "rounded" unis in case he changed his mind. At every school we visited, the advice was to start with Engineering because it would be simple and straightforward to move <em>from</em> Engineering to another school (A&S, Business...). But it would be much more difficult (impossible at some schools) to switch <em>into</em> Engineering.</p>

<p>The UCs, with their impacted majors etc., are a nightmare of their own kind (no offense meant; I have a Cal-Berkeley degree myself).</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>And what if I'd decided that my destiny was to become a clown? It's really difficult to get into clown college without any prior clown experience, and especially with my humorless background in engineering.</p>

<p>Point being, the OP said that he/she didn't <em>want</em> to become an engineer. If you really honestly don't want to become an engineer... Don't major in engineering!! You can't go through life keeping <em>every</em> option open. You've got to choose occasionally, and I think the OP made it clear that an eventual career in engineering wasn't his/her ultimate goal.</p>

<p>DianeR had a great post there. Most excellent.
<em>applauds DianeR</em></p>

<p>
[quote]
I haven't heard about a problem of switching out of engineering to the regular college, have you?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unfortunately, and sadly yes. At Berkeley, the rule is, to switch into the regular college, you basically need at least a 3.0 (and even if you have that, your switch is not assured). And anybody who knows engineering, especially at Berkeley, is that it is very very easy to get less than a 3.0 So here you have all those Berkeley engineers who are doing very poorly and wan't to switch out, but because they are doing poorly, they are not allowed to switch out. What that means is that the reason they want to switch out is precisely the reason why they are not allowed to switch out. If they were getting good grades in engineering, they could switch out, but of course, if they were getting good grades, they probably wouldn't want to switch out in the first place. Paging Joseph Heller.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Point being, the OP said that he/she didn't <em>want</em> to become an engineer. If you really honestly don't want to become an engineer... Don't major in engineering!! You can't go through life keeping <em>every</em> option open. You've got to choose occasionally, and I think the OP made it clear that an eventual career in engineering wasn't his/her ultimate goal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I still maintain that engineering is pretty good training for whatever you want to do later in life. Again, I would say that it's no more difficult than, say, physics or mathematics as a major, and yet engineering can deliver a higher starting salary. Think of it this way. Relatively few physics majors will actually become physicists, and relatively few math majors will actually become mathematicians. So I don't see why engineering needs to be treated in a different manner.</p>

<p>What is it with Berkeley? You have to declare yourself early and then you're stuck? This stinks.</p>

<p>If I weren't sure, I would question prospective colleges about how hard it is to switch. I definitely wouldn't pick Berkeley. But I guess I said that already ...</p>

<p>Thinking about it some more, I don't think inability to switch out of a major if you happen to dislike it and are doing poorly in it is a strong argument for declaring that major, especially if there is no real interest in the major to begin with.</p>

<p>i'm not sure if i like engineering or not because I've never taken an engineering class in my life.... it'd be nice to know what I'm getting into before I do it, but that's not possible and I can only go on what other people say about engineering</p>

<p>most people majoring in engineering don't really want to crunch numbers and be the nerdy cubicle guy, they want to get an MBA,management track or law school med school,etc. and they think engineering is a good background. I was like that too, i think its ultimately your decision no doubt what u want to do.</p>

<p>if u are not sure what u want to do in life, the worst major to pick is engineering, because people don't get good grades in general in engineering and u don't really get the chance to explore anything because there are so many required classes. </p>

<p>It's easy to think that engineering opens doors for everything, but this is true only if u do well in engineering, if not, u will be stuck in a decent paying job in a career field that u don't really want.</p>

<p>Think carefully and realistically, and decide.</p>

<p>Reeze,</p>

<p>You really can't find any "introduction to engineering" program for high school students this summer? Or are you a graduating senior? Do you have particular schools in mind? You may find a place where you can sample engineering without being irrevocably stuck.</p>

<p>Do you have any idea as to which type of engineering you would even declare as your major?</p>

<p>i really disagree with what seems to be the majority sentiment here so far.</p>

<p>engineering can easily be a means to an end, especially with technology progressing exponentially in today's world. let's say you want to start ANY high-tech business (the majority of large, successful companies founded in the last 15 years have been high-tech). in order to attract investors, you're going to come off as someone who knows what theyre talking about technology-wise. nothing says that better than an engineering degree. a simple business degree doesnt say that, it says you're just another punk trying to get rich.</p>

<p>the argument that engineers are unsociable people is confusing correlation with causation. engineering will not CAUSE reeze to be anti-social. there is a CORRELATION between anti-social people and engineering. if you're socially adept to begin with, as reeze seems to be, engineering isnt going to change that.</p>

<p>most people end up in a career in some field unrelated to their undergrad major. given that, i think any employer in any market will understand you are a hard-working, non-loosey-goosey person for pursuing an intense engineering curriculum. the argument that you can sharpen your intellect by doing other things is not an argument against engineering. thats like arguing, "college dropouts have become millionaires; therefore, dont go to college." engineering is undoubtedly more analytical than some BS curriculum like "gender and race studies."</p>

<p>in truth, i'd say its -better- to be only somewhat interested in engineering, if you consider salaries. sure, engineers coming out of college have the highest starting salaries... but they stay there forever. engineering as a career will become borderline blue collar, considering the millions of people in India and China starting to study engineering. engineering as a foundation for a life of success, whether it be some other career or starting your own business, is a much better idea.</p>

<p>reeze, stay hardcore.</p>

<p>If someone wants to be a high tech entrepreneur, he should get the training to do that. The problem is that if someone doesn't know what he wants. Employers in all fields do not necessarily go for the engineer -- relevant coursework and experience is a prerequisite for many jobs. Other jobs may need someone of demonstrated writing ability. It makes more sense, to me, to find what one enjoys doing and learning about it in the most intellectually compelling way possible.</p>

<p>When my son was in freshman orientation for engineering school, my husband and I went to an open house in the EE department. The chairman gave a little speech explaining that the job market was unsettled and many jobs were going overseas. He wanted to make sure that those enrolling were doing so because they were interested in the field, NOT because they thought it was the ticket to a job at the end. For the job might not be there. (I think this is where my son decided to do some auxiliary coursework to keep some other options open!)</p>

<p>Recently there was a WSJ article about the job market for engineers. Many newly minted engineers were complaining that the jobs just aren't there. The companies complaining about how hard it is to fill job openings ("we need more engineers") by and large are trying to fill particular positions that need a specific specialty and experience within a given category of engineering.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"the argument that you can sharpen your intellect by doing other things is not an argument against engineering. thats like arguing, "college dropouts have become millionaires; therefore, dont go to college."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No it isn't at all. All non-engineering majors are not the equivalent of dropping out of college. There is a demonstrated connection between earnings and being a college graduate. I've seen no statistics indicating that engineering majors end up earning more than every other major or a survey of employers saying that, "All else being equal, we will hire the engineering major."</p>

<p>I am not arguing AGAINST engineering. It is a great field -- if you love it. If you simply enjoy the course work and ultimately want to get a different sort of job -- it is still a great major. It is not the major, though, for someone who thinks it will simply open up job possibilities in the future and who does NOT love the field. What if you end up down the road and the only jobs you can get are those requiring you to do this stuff you really don't love?</p>

<p>I'm not 18. (Far from it LOL) I've known far too many who majored in things in college because they thought this was the ticket to a bright future, not because they were particularly enamored of them. They come to view their undergraduate experience as wasted effort, and find themselves wishing they had studied what they truly loved. Sometimes they find themselves in careers where they aren't happy.</p>

<p>Conversely, I've met people who are successfully and happily employed who majored in things they loved and which would seem to have little marketability (for instance, ancient Greek and Italian). These weren't easy majors and I think their beginning employers recognized that they weren't intellectual slouches and had the courage to pursue what interested them when they had the chance.</p>

<p>That's why I always tell people to study what interests them. This is the best preparation for a career that will interest them. Studying what you like leads to self-knowledge as to the sorts of things you enjoy doing.</p>

<p>If someone enjoys math, science, and the concept on solving real world physical problems, then engineering would be a great choice. But this is something for prospective college students to individually decide, not something for us outsiders to tell them they SHOULD enjoy. I hope this distinction comes across in what I've said. Remember those poor Berkeley engineering students we were told about, who are doing poorly, want to transfer out -- and can't. Perhaps they went into engineering school without a real commitment to it.</p>

<p>i was talking about majoring in something that gives u some chance to get a job and at the same time allows u to explore, if "Ancient Greek and Italian" are not easy majors, then there is no such thing as an easy major.</p>