My turn to be mystified...

Parents Forum
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<p>I've been writing all these philosophical posts about how the small liberal arts colleges can't possibly take all the kids who are qualified blah blah blah blah... and I certainly knew that the chances of my son getting rejected from any "match" or "reach" school were there by definition.</p>

<p>All in all he did extraordinarily well, and will have good choices.</p>

<p>But at the moment I am just a bit... boiling...</p>

<p>He got rejected from Vassar... which I thought was more than understandable. Had they taken him, he would have been a great match -- he was well within their 25-75%, his writing sat was not very exciting but we were assured repeatedly that it was not going to count much since it was new (and without a prep course there was really no way to expect it to be aligned with whatever ridiculous writing curriculum they were using to beat creativity out of the kids these days).</p>

<p>So I posted his stats on the Vassar forum, feeling not bad at all... the accepted students seemed stellar and frighteningly superior. And then...
A bunch of kids have posted that they got in with all around .... not just lower scores -- because we all know it is not just about numbers -- but lower scores AND they are saying things like (these are paraphrases) "I never completed my application such as submitting recommendations but I got in" or "I never visitied or interviewed or submitted the optional myspace materials" or "I had no special ECs" or "no SAT IIs".</p>

<p>So, how, then, do you explain how a rational admissions committee chooses a student who has all around lower scores, didn't demonstrate interest, had no special EC's and didn't submit optional extra material? I just feel bad for my son, and others like him, who worked for weeks and weeks on special material just for his Vassar application... in his case he edited an entire short film just for the application! </p>

<p>I'm sure that there is some way that someone could explain it... my son's school probably had many kids apply this year, perhaps they had more asian/white boys this year than ever who play the flute, are into math/theater/politics/biology and film.... </p>

<p>But it sure is this sort of thing that winds up making it look like a crapshot!</p>

<p>Again, I raise this not for the personal whining, but for the bigger picture... how can kids who say they themselves have no idea how they got in be chosen over so many other qualified candidates?</p>

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<p>Remember, these are just random posts on the internet. Try not to jump to conclusions--you can't see these kids' applications, just their reported stats.</p>

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<p>Yes, please don't believe the stats and descriptions a bunch of teenagers write on an anonymous forum. Many are trying to portray themselves in certain ways, or they may just have inaccurate or incomplete views of themselves. Many of the kids are trying to make themselves feel better. Some do this by making their ECs look better than they actually are, and others do this by downplaying the amount of effort they put in. Please try not to compare your son. Remember, this isn't really a competitive one-on-one process; you can't look at a kid from your son's school who got in and compare the two. The process tends to be more independent than that. Also remember that your son will be accepted at schools that rejected many, many applicants with higher test scores, higher grades, more challenging circumstances, more desire to attend, etc. It works both ways.</p>

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<p>Also, the postings are very heavily skewed towards those who are accepted. It's less often that you see the kids who got rejected post their rejection...</p>

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<p>Alas, you are so very sensible! It seems I will have to return to being level headed and philosophical!</p>

<p>Wouldn't it be great if the rejections could come with some "positive" reasons (this is rhetorical, not need to actually respond!)
Dear X -- We are sorry to reject you, but honestly, we thought that our small liberal arts college just wasn't the right fit for you. We think you would thrive in a larger, more urban research university setting. If you didn't apply to one of those, take a gap year and try again next year!
Dear Y -- We are sorry to reject you, but although you have truly exceptional test scores and EC's, you never exhibited the slightest interest in or understanding of our college. You indicated that you wanted to major in biochemistry, but we don't actually have that major.<br>
Of course they couldn't actually do that with limited staff or sufficient honesty, tact or constructiveness or without instigating arguments, appeals and litigation....</p>

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<p>I agree with jimbob. Just because they are saying they didn't have special ECs or didn't do the extra doesn't mean they didn't. Maybe their definition of special and/or stellar ECs is not yours or mine for that matter. They are teenagers!</p>

<p>As far as visits or interviews or optional submitted materials, it depends on the school and what one is submitting. Son last year did NOT visit anywhere ahead of time, did some interviews but not all (ie. MIT), and submitted the Common App when he could and submitted the school application only if that was the only application for that respective school (Cal Tech, U Penn, MIT, Northwestern, Chicago). I do not recall any additional materials being sent. And he was accepted whether he sent the stuff, did the interviews or the optional stuff. All his "reaches" besides the schools already mentioned received a Common App.</p>

<p>He figured they either wanted what they saw or they didn't.</p>

<p>The effort your son went to is commendable and will serve him well in all his other pursuits. Son took his rejections/waitlists not personal. Again if they didn't like what he presented and his style then it would not have been a good fit. They did not value what he did.</p>

<p>Have fun with all his choices. Enjoy this special time. </p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Silver - I agree with the above responses. I'd be really surprised if those stories turned out to be true. Vassar is a special place and IMHO goes extra lengths to select kids who fit the school. Best of luck to your S at whatever wonderful college he attends.</p>

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<p>Silver, I'm in the same boat as you. My daughter was rejected from Vassar, and she had very good stats and is NMF (not that Vassar participates in that, but still). I am more surprised by your son not making it in, given the dearth of boys. But it's just a tough, tough year. I am mentally preparing myself for more rejections, honestly.</p>

<p>Still, an invitation to join the Vassar waitlist, however futile, would have been nicer!</p>

<p>Also, I wanted to add that many of the Vassar rejectees have amazing stats. Our kids are in good company!</p>

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<p>I found with my children's friends who are highly competitive with perfectionist tendencies that they under report the amount of effort they put into any project. It sounds much better to say they got good grades (or college admissions) without even trying. If you saw their efforts you might realize it's all perspective.</p>

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<p>just wait until grad school applications before you call yourself 'mystified.' it gets worse.</p>

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<p>Silversenior.... I know you are disappointed -- but in all fairness, I checked the Vassar thread and I think you are conflating bits & pieces of different posts to portray some imagined kid with an incomplete app, low test scores, no EC's, etc..... but there is no post like that. You are picking and choosing some of the "aw shucks" level comments, but those kids either had some strengths or simply didn't volunteer other info, so you don't know what the strengths were. In other words, I didn't see any single post that fit the description of "has all around lower scores, didn't demonstrate interest, had no special EC's and didn't submit optional extra material" -- even though each of those comments might have been made by separate kids with different profiles. </p>

<p>The kid who claimed he was admitted without having submitted recs or the application supplement also was ""2200 SAT 4.3 gpa, national merit finalist, semi-professional musician." That looks like a pretty strong score & GPA to me.</p>

<p>I didn't study all the other posts, but I think that your understandably frustrated mood has lead to a somewhat distorted view. </p>

<p>I don't know much about Vassar admissions, but in scanning the posts of admitted students I did get a sense that many were talented in the arts. In any case, you really don't know what their high school transcripts or recs look liked -- it really is a matter of the whole picture. </p>

<p>Your son has been accepted into some wonderful schools -- Oberlin and Brandeis are extremely selective and I think they are every bit as strong academically as Vassar. My daughter was turned down by Brandeis last year, so at least in my eyes it's an accomplishment to get in! </p>

<p>You did mention in your post in the Vassar thread a couple of significant weaknesses in your son's application -- that's o.k, my daughter also had some huge, glaring weaknesses. I think if a kid has something a college really wants, then they will overlook the weaknesses -- but if not, then they really can kill an application. It may be that the admissions people start by looking to see if there is a strong reason to accept the kid --if so, they might overlook some weaknesses. But if nothing jumps out at them, then they may look for a reason to reject. So the "semi-professional musician" kid may have had the admissions staff quite eager to have him (for all you know, he might have a couple of albums out and also be semi-famous). </p>

<p>Anyway, I hope that you feel better soon -- again, your son has some great choices. If Vassar was his biggest reach (as you posted in the other thread) -- then it really is an indication that he made good choices in targeting his schools. My kids were both turned down by the highest reach on their lists, too; I thought it made sense at the time and honestly didn't bother worrying about what the stats of accepted students looked like. </p>

<p>So there's no mystery. The mystery is when a kid gets turned down by his safety. When the reach turns him down, and someone with similar or lesser "stats" gets in -- it just means that the other kid got lucky.</p>

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<p>My D was also rejected by Vassar. Her stats were in the middle of the Vassar range. There were no deficiencies with her app. She also received very positive signs during the tour. The evening before she had a music lesson from the instrument teacher and that went very well. During the tour we visited the music castle and received an hour long private tour by the Dean. She also had positive interviews by one of the academic administrators and a department head. During the tour she had indicated and interest in crew and later received several emails from an athletics faculty member. All of the indications were very positive, but she was rejected anyway.</p>

<p>Recently there have been several threads on this forum about the arbitrary nature of admissions. It is tempting to believe that my D was unlucky and just lost out on the crapshoot. I really do not believe that was the case. My D was impressed with the elitism and architecture, especially the music castle, but she really did not fit the social culture of Vassar. I suspect the Vassar adcoms made a wise decision and, except for her ego, my D was not at all disappointed with the rejection.</p>

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<p>Since I am the student in question here...</p>

<p>Let me be completely detailed with you with what I did and did not do. I am by no means saying this is fair at all.</p>

<p>I did the very first part of the common app (none of the supplements).
I reported my test scores.
I was in contact with the lacrosse coach, but lost contact. I was a recruit for a while, but I seriously doubt this had anything to do with anything that happened.</p>

<p>I had eliminated Vassar from my college list (far too liberal for my likings) so I never finished anything else. About a month ago they contacted my counselor asking for my midyear report. At this point I believe she sent my transcript and a recommendation.</p>

<p>I'm sorry if I came across as "I was too good to need to fill out the whole application!" Quite honestly, I was just dumbfounded and very surprised.</p>

<p>And if it helps anything here are my stats... (I hate posting these, but I don't want to be portrayed as the stupid kid who got in without doing anything).</p>

<p>GPA: 4.33/3.7
SAT: 2200 new / 1480 old
SAT IIs: 710/690/670 math/lit/spanish
National Merit Finalist
IB diploma canidate
2 years lacrosse, 1 year varsity
4 years marching band, heavy leadership
2 years jazz band
1 year show band</p>

<p>And believe me, I'm not some kid who just hacks away at bass. I get called for several local pro-unioned gigs. </p>

<p>With ALL of this being said, Vassar won't be a financial reality for me, so at the very best, this is all just a pleasant little surprise.</p>

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<p>My son was accepted, is clearly "qualified" and did a great job with supplement and "My Space". A friend's daughter was rejected. She is a superb student, slightly lower test scores, fabulous musician, talented actress. I think she submitted supplemental material in the arts. She's <em>obviously</em> a girl and my son <em>obviously</em> isn't. That may have made a difference. She would not have gotten any merit money (Vassar doesn't give any) so it would not have been very feasible for her parents anyway.</p>

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<p>As someone said above, Vassar works very hard to put the "right class" together. They look not only at stats, but who they feel will, in combination, make a good incoming class. When I attended, the motto in the course catalog was "Vassar College is not unique- every Vassar student is". And they mean it. I am so sorry your son wasn't accepted to this wonderful school. I would rest assured, though, that his application was given a thorough review. I am sure he will do wonderfully wherever he goes. And besides, he can always apply as a transfer student!</p>

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<p>After the initial sting wears off, I take the attitude of agreeing with the admissions committee - the schools that reject would not have been right - after all, they didn't recognize greatness when it flew through their mail slot. Although the student may have thought the facilities and offerings were what he wanted, he doesn't know about all the other admits and maybe he wouldn't have found them to his liking. </p>

<p>Is Vassar a need blind school and did you apply for aid? That can also be a factor. In a month, when s. is weighing his choices and excited about the possibilities, you still won't have an answer as to 'why' but you'll be less likely to even think of the question.</p>

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<p>LACs seem to put a great deal of effort into creating an ideal class, rather than assessing applicants on their individual merits. To me, this seems absurd. How can they manipulate the nature of the class successfully when they have no idea which applicants will accept their offer and which will go elsewhere? But they try anyway. </p>

<p>From looking at some of the threads where kids report their results at individual schools, it seems to me that the results at larger universities are more consistent than those at small LACs.</p>

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<p>There's some good insight from other posters on this thread about the posts on CC's decision threads.</p>

<p>"Wouldn't it be great if the rejections could come with some "positive" reasons (this is rhetorical, not need to actually respond!)
Dear X .... we thought that our small liberal arts college just wasn't the right fit for you........
Dear Y.... you never exhibited the slightest interest in or understanding of our college. You indicated that you wanted to major in biochemistry, but we don't actually have that major."</p>

<p>I know you said "no need to respond" but, the reality is, in many cases the school can't send a letter like that because there aren't "objective", positive reasons. All of the elite schools say they could have admitted a large percentage of the rejected/waitlisted students, and those students are likely to have done very well at the school. The student is qualified, the fit would be good....but they just can't admit them all. How do they choose which ones to admit? That question has been discussed widely on CC....with answers ranging from mixed class composition, likely yield, etc. </p>

<p>While waitlist may have been a little more of an ego-booster, it's a tough situation to be in. IMHO, better to make a decision based on the school's a kid's been accepted to, than hoping for admission off of a waitlist.</p>

<p>I am always reminded of the story of Andi's son from college class of 2009 when the posts are put up of "why didn't my kid get admitted." It's been brought up frequently on CC, and it's not a whiny story, but it is a detailed description of one highly qualified kid who didn't get into highly competitive schools....with an eventual happy ending for her son as a member of the class of 2010. </p>

<p>Many CC families have benefited from that story....and have made good selections from a wide range of schools to apply to, so they have good choices when school's like Vassar don't admit their kids....for no obvious reason. Glad to hear your son will have good choices, in spite of not being admitted to Vassar.</p>

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<p>I would like to add to this. I am a Vassar alum. For those of you who whose children were "rejected" tell them that once they graduate, had Vassar been their alma mater, more than half of the average people they come across in life will not have even heard of Vassar - unless they choose to only move about in elite academic & social groups, which are rather boring and pretentious - admit it. And for those of you whose kids were "accepted" - make sure they appreciate that they are spending their four years in a school that represents much privilege, but is not an example of the world at large - which Vassar students, especially now, are supposed to care about so much. There are outstanding people who have done outstanding things with their lives in the alumni bulletins of every school. It's not the name that counts.</p>

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<p>OOOH. Your diatribe sounds so bitter! Must be a reason. My daughter is also an alum, and had the best experience. She also is very proud of her degree from such a wonderful and noteworthy school. She made many wonderful friends, from varying and interesting backgrounds. In terms of the sorts of people who know the venerable name, "Vassar," I find it hard to believe that there are many people who have not heard of it. I have never met one, although I have met people who never heard of schools like Williams, Haverford, Colby, Bates...Which is more expected.
This being said, I do agree that there are many wonderful schools out there that will suit the kids who have been rejected by Vassar. There are a finite number of spots at any school, and very often, great kids are rejected from great schools...The thing is, those great kids are probably better suited for yet another great school.
Vassar has its own quirkiness. You really need to fit into it, in some way. If admissions does not see that "fit" you are probably much better off to have been rejected. So much good luck to all the wonderful kids and their parents. All will work out, well.</p>