<p>Ah i really don't know which school to choose from! i'd base it off the campus visit but my parents are too cheap to go visit notre dame cuz i'm from so cal. I'm majoring in architecture. So what do you guys think? oh yeah and i'm not catholic either but i heard that it doesn't matter too much cuz the people are accepting nonetheless.</p>
<p>wow two so very different type of schools. what do you like about berkeley and nd? if you like the political/liberal atmosphere of berkeley, you most certainly will not like the political/moderate/conservative atmosphere of nd. </p>
<p>maybe you should list factors you like about each school. also, if your parents are too cheap to visit nd, is it a financially feasable option. will your parents be able to pay for nd's tuition? stuff like that comes into everyones decision, including mine.</p>
<p>I agree, knowing what is important to you would help a lot. I do feel we have a very good architecture program and I am not sure what they offer at Berkeley but just look at both schools and see where you fit best. We can help give you an idea but it helps to know what you are looking for :)</p>
<p>thanx for ur comments. I'm more conservative/moderate but then I'm not really into the whole political scene, so i don't think that either school's political philosophy will really matter much to me. I'm pretty sure if it came down to it my parents would be able to muster up the money to pay for Notre Dame as long I don't get like $45,000 in loans or something. that would suck.</p>
<p>I've kinda researched each program a little. Notre Dame has a really solid architecture school and focuses more on classical/traditional architecture. It's a five year accredited program so upon graduation, i would be able to try and get my professional license. The full year studies in rome for arch students doesn't hurt either.</p>
<p>Berkeley, on the other hand, offers a 4 year architecture program that is really a liberal arts education. Their program has more emphasis on the design and aesthetics of architecture i presume. The catch is that you have to get your masters to obtain a professional degree in order to get a license.</p>
<p>in the end, i'd say both schools are equally strong but just focus on different things. Ah, this is hard.</p>
<p>For a conservative/moderate, you are considering choosing one of the most liberal schools in the nation. Just an observation. I would choose ND (well for obvious reasons) as well as for the program in Rome. Ive heard from ND students that have gone through that, that it is one of the most valuable/meaningful experiences in their lives. Also, from people that dont go to ND, Ive heard that foreign study in Rome is simply amazing.</p>
<p>I had to choose between ND and UCLA last year. Looking at my name u can tell I chose UCLA, when i was trying to decide i always thought of ND's history and football, but after a year in westwood i believe i made the right choice( weather, girls, environment, etc) I'm not a architecture expert but I think CAL has some of the strongest architecture programs in the world check me on that (I'll check that and post quickly). The UC system as a whole has some of the best programs in the world comparable to Harvard and Yale, if u look at UCLA's med program and Berkeley's math program there both world renowned. I believe a CAL degree goes alot farther anywhere in the world (besides chicago area). The reputation of the campus may be liberal like all college campuses, UCLA is very liberal as well, but the reputation of CAL is one of a kind. (And whats wrong with being liberal, you'll be exposed to a new mindset that stresses acceptance and individuality, i dont think thats bad for a person who is maturing and developing their own ideas, you don't need anyone else telling u that u are less moral or wrong in a liberla environment everyone is accepted if u don't believe me walk around ucla campus i think you'll agree since ur from socal) It is the best public school in the country and probably one of the greatest colleges in the world (CAL). I know its like 20 or something on US news, but that report is compiled by elitist east coast intellects. I can tell you from experience, because my uncle is an architect and part of a firm in NYC (he actually was the lead designer of the NY yankees minor league stadium in Staten Island NY) My uncle attended Berkeley in the 60's so that's pretty liberal, he now is a visiting professor who teaches at Tufts University and has taught classes back at CAL. His CAL degree has only helped him in applications back in boston, and if u want to live back in california its a nobrainer go with cal and use the networking already here. If u want to live in south bend go to notre dame. I think it basically comes down to where u want to live, how much u want to pay, and how open of a college campus u can tolerate. hope this helps, my opinion go to cal far better school, greater intellectuals and better research, but it comes down to your gut instinct thats how i chose UCLA over ND my gut told me stay here in paradise</p>
<p>Here are some Berekely stats (not trying to bash ND its a great school, but i dont see how its a better institution according to us news):
National Research Council
Berkeley ranks first nationally in the number of graduate programs in the top 10 in their fields.
(97% of Berkeley's programs made the top 10 list.)
Berkeley ranks first nationally in the number of "distinguished" programs for the scholarship of the faculty [32 programs]</p>
<p>You can't go wrong with either school hope this helps there is far more information on website</p>
<p>Bruin, I am a bit leery of your post to be honest because you seem to be arguing for Berkeley based on your experience with UCLA and you seem to be arguing against Notre Dame based on things you picked up on or rumors you have heard along the way. I know you were looking at both schools but I do not feel that you are accurately representing some things.</p>
<p>Looking at the OP, I think that Notre Dame is a much better fit politically for someone who is conservative/moderate even if you aren't really into politics. If it was a slightly liberal school that would be one thing but you will not ignore politics at Berkeley, it just won't happen. I just think in reference to politics you would be more comfortable at Notre Dame but that is just my opinion.</p>
<p>As you said, Cal may have strong architecture programs but you have to look at where they get you. I am not sure how much goes into getting a masters but it is something to consider that you wouldn't have to do that here. The program is very strong (though very tough as well, I won't lie about that) and will get you where you need to go.</p>
<p>I disagree with the premise that a UC degree will get you farther than a Notre Dame degree; perhaps it is my perception but this just isn't true. Perhaps it is in California (though I am really not sure about that) but pretty much anywhere else Notre Dame will trump with prestige. I say this as someone who was born and raised in Denver, right between the two, and while we consider the UC's to be good schools we view them to be just about as good as our own public university system...for better or worse. ND I believe has more prestige in Denver and most other places than the UC's do. Even if not, ND has the advantage of the alumni network which works wonders, let me tell you. Notre Dame truly takes care of its own unlike any other school. I can go into this more if you wish but just know that with those two factors I would challenge that ANY school, even Ivy's gets you farther than Notre Dame. I know the Ivy's may have more prestige, but we do have alums that work extremely hard to get you where you need to be and that makes a huge difference!</p>
<p>Bruin asks what is wrong with a liberal campus as you are exposed to new things. Well, let me just say that I would not be comfortable at UC as a conservative. I could have stayed at home at the University of Colorado and saved a lot of money but I wouldn't have handled that. I don't exactly know why but there is a difference between being open minded and having it be over the top. I think that at most any fairly balanced school (like ND) you will get a liberal element as there are a good number of liberals here and they make their voices heard. However, when you are one of the few conservatives, it can be a bit too much. I do not think that liberal is always a good thing having talked with a friend of mine who used to be president of college republicans at Berkeley (and who is no longer at Berkeley but now at ND). It is something really to consider, but I strongly disagree that you can write it off and say liberal=good because it depends on the individual. I know the OP thinks it would be fine, and perhaps, but this is just one of those where I am speaking from my experience so feel free to disregard if I am wrong.</p>
<p>Bruin says "but that report is compiled by elitist east coast intellects." Here we agree but I would also add that they do not traditionally look too highly at religious schools. Look at the peer accessment scores. It isn't that we are worse, but our rankings are held down because there seems to be some prejudice against us (I feel). Again, my opinion, just like it is that the west coast schools are at a disadvantage (though Stanford does pretty well).</p>
<p>"if u want to live back in california its a nobrainer go with cal and use the networking already here. If u want to live in south bend go to notre dame. I think it basically comes down to where u want to live, how much u want to pay, and how open of a college campus u can tolerate." I pretty much agree with Bruin here but I would say if you want to live outslide of California, ND will probably give you more of a boost. It depends on where you are most comfortable and where you feel you fit the best, period. You are going to get a great education at either school, go where you fit. I just would recommend that you make sure you fit at Berkeley by visiting if you haven't already just because it is a unique atmosphere.</p>
<p>"hope this helps, my opinion go to cal far better school, greater intellectuals and better research, but it comes down to your gut instinct thats how i chose UCLA over ND my gut told me stay here in paradise" Greater intellectuals and better research? Sorry but this cries homer to me! I would argue this up and down as I am involved in research at Notre Dame. Plus, is research even applicable to Architecture? I am not sure, but I will argue this point!</p>
<p>"Here are some Berekely stats (not trying to bash ND its a great school, but i dont see how its a better institution according to us" Bruin, you aren't bashing Notre Dame because you aren't granting any way to compare Berkeley to Notre Dame. Regardless, is research even really applicable to Architecture and is the research in the departments you would want. If it is medical, that is great, but does the OP need that? I think we are comparing apples to oranges on this, but again, I will defend ND's research, just tell me in what topic. I can do the research to see about our Architecture program and if they have research if necessary.</p>
<p>(NOT SHOUTING, EMPHASIZING)
I AM SORRY TO PICK ON YOU BRUIN BUT HONESTLY I JUST THOUGHT THAT YOUR POST MAY MISLEAD THE OP AND YOUR PORTRAYAL WASN'T ACCURATE. TO THE OP, THE BEST VIEW YOU CAN GET FROM THE BOARDS IS PROBABLY ACTUALLY ASKING STUDENTS AT CAL ABOUT CAL AND STUDENTS FROM ND ABOUT ND BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW OUR OWN SCHOOL BEST.</p>
<p>My 2 cents on the prestige issue is that, within California, the UCs have it, with the rest of the world, the prestige wars are won, hands down, by the Ivies and other top 20 private colleges. Most of my family (in Minnesota and Texas) knows ND as a great school (athletically and academically) and Berkeley as some crazy liberal school in California. Whether its a fair assessment or not, public opinion is mainly what plays into the prestige issue.</p>
<p>Also- I agree with Irish that the religious schools seem to be discriminated against a bit in the rankings, although the top state schools seem to suffer from this as well.</p>
<p>I see what irish is saying about asking kids from the school. But i still believe the research out here in california is far better than ND research on almost any subject. The thing u have to rememeber is that people dont always know what they are going to do in college, u might come in thinking u want to do architecture and then realize this isnt for me, so with the UC's u get the best research in the world in almost any field. You can check that Berkeley has the best math and science programs in the world, UCLA has best med programs, and even schools like UCSC and UCSD have great marine biology programs even UCD has good ag programs. I have to disagree about the research element on any subject check that i think CAL wins hand down. I understand ur guys point but u grew up in red states, and CO is definitely republican so your going to get bias against anything on the "left coast". Im sorry but the UC system trumps any state school system by far, all the UC's (excluding Merced) and that means UCB, UCLA, UCSD, UCI, UCSB, UCD, UCSC, UCR are in top 100 on usnews can any other state school system get half of their schools in top 100? I don't think so, so lets not compare UC system to Colorado state system its not even close, and your own opinion is biased about Cal, have u ever been to berkeley? It's unique and liberal, sure, like all great intelectual environments (and i include ND as a great intellectual spot too) but u can't have an unbiased view from out in the rockie mountains when the only news that makes it out there is the extreme liberal views of california. So i may not be a Cal student but I am closer to the school than u are in south bend. Let's jsut agree that both schools are great, but Cal is better</p>
<p>And also out there a Cal degree makes employers squirm and cringe of a liberal goof ball, but remember if big dog from above wants to come back a ND degree is going to make u look like a I right wing conservative, so it's all relative. I'm not bashing on ND i was accepted there, I think its a great school, I visited south bend and the campus, I have relatives who have many ND alums, but ur guys view of UC's are a little skewed. Maybe thats the bias everywhere except cali that UC's arent that great and way too liberal, but let me just remind u that most UC graduates stay here and thats what makes this state the envy of the globe, in terms of education, lifestyle, and economy (keep in mind CA by itself 5th largest economy in the world) so lets not discredit the education that this great state produces</p>
<p>Minnesota is not a red state...and Notre Dame still seems to have better prestige unless one is hanging out in very liberal circles, in which Notre Dame's Catholicism lowers others' opinions of it. In terms of the research issue, I think that both the quality of undergraduate education and quality of research are important. Small LACs focus on the former and larger universities (such as Cal and UCLA) excel by far in the latter area. However, very few schools offer both personal attention and good research opportunities, but Princeton, Dartmouth, and Notre Dame come to mind.</p>
<p>I agree with shelzie whos a big playa if ur going to stay in CA and live here (Don't know why u would want to leave) go to Cal, but if u want somewhere else use the newtorking of ND and other out of state institutions. Visit Indiana, the flat ground, lonely corn fields, dreary weather, and then come to CA the topography is unique, weather fantastic, and the fine people. This isnt directed to college consumed ur a big playa make up ur own decision everything will be fine. Whatever u pick ull forget about the other the week ur in dorm life and youll embrace either campus.</p>
<p>Well ur still very close to the epicenter that is ND, remember that MN is still slow life eh? so Cal is going to have a biased rep up in the land of 10,000 lakes eh? Just playing around</p>
<p>Also, I never said that the UCs were not good schools, I just think that there are many others that are superior both in academic quality and certainly more suited to certain personality types. Also, if the rest of the world does not hold a high enough opinion of the UCs, it seems that perhaps Californians hold too high an opinion of their state school system. A UC education may well benefit those who choose to stay within California, but the rest of the world may not envy California as much as you may think...</p>
<p>Lol, say what you will, I love MN life :).</p>
<p>P.S. we actually have 11,842 lakes :P</p>
<p>maybe ur right big playa</p>
<p>Even if I grant you the research aspect (which I am not ready to do but...) does that mean that a school is better than another? I know many people who go to liberal arts schools because they feel that the research is not as important but they want great teaching. Does Cal have better research than ND overall, probably, but ND also is known for focusing more on teaching than research and perhaps that is what you should look for in an education. </p>
<p>The other thing you have to think about with research, as I am going through right now, is can you get published. At a big research university it is going to be very tough because the graduate students most of the time get the co-authorships, not the undergrads. These co-authorships are vital for getting into Ph.D programs in many fields. I have had a few chances at Notre Dame for co-authorship but unfortunately our results keep coming up a bit short (which can happen in research). However, I think that makes it just about perfect for me; it is a big enough research school that I have the opportunities to do research but not so big that the grad students have a monopoly on the write-ups. </p>
<p>I am not sure if that makes sense but it is something to think about. There is far more to education than research, however, and I don't think you can judge a school based upon it. If anything, you should judge a school based upon the teaching skills of the professors.</p>
<p>wow, that's a lot of input. thanx, it helps a lot. I visited berkeley yesterday and I really liked it a lot. It was "cal day" so of course they're trying to make the campus look nice and accepting. haha i did get a little exposure to the extreme liberal side of campus. There were some blindfolded guys connected by rope walking around campus i guess representing the hostages from iraq or something. i thought they were weird ninja at first lol. There was also this guy who talked to my dad about trying to get Bush impeached. But the whole liberal scene really didn't bother me too much even though i understand that is just a small glimpse of the campus life. I'd like to think that i'm open-minded and willing to listen to other beliefs and perspectives so i think as long as i stay true to what i believe in, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.</p>
<p>I liked the idea of getting a liberal arts education at berkeley also. I kinda want to be more well-rounded in my education and be capable of experiencing a normal college life. I know that 5-year arch programs don't allow much free time at all to the students. I wouldn't really have the opportunity to minor or double major and i certainly wouldn't have the time to get involved in athletics or other various organizations.</p>
<p>Notre Dame seems to have a pretty rigorous 5 year program for architecture. I think i'm going to go visit it this friday actually. My parents finally changed their minds and said that if i really was considering nd i could go visit it. I think i'll get a much better sense of the school in general and the program as well.</p>
<p>I'm not really sure what research opportunities arch majors have too. I think more of what i can do is, through the school, trying to get internships and stuff. I'd probably assume that Notre Dame would better provide me with internship opportunities but you never know. Berkeley might have a lot of good opportunities as well. Because their professors really don't do too much research and maybe just have their own practices and work, i think that the professors will be equally good. This is also just an assumption. I'm basing a lot on assumptions haha. Well thanx again for ur responses guys. It helps give me more sight on what i should consider and stuff.</p>
<p>I am glad that you will get to see both campuses! Just see what you think and go with your gut but do take notice that Berkeley didn't bother you like it would me, so that is something to consider. Just see where you are most comfortable though!</p>