ND or NU?

<p>The fact is, this is not a thread designed to praise Notre Dame. My understanding is that this was a thread for those interested in discussing Notre Dame so that students could make an informed decision about where they should attend school. </p>

<p>Yes, I am an atheist. Yes, I believe the Catholic church takes positions about birth control, abortions, protecting priests at the expense of abused children, that I simply cannot agree with. No, I did not apply to Notre Dame. No, I do not believe that where the golden dome sits changes anything about whether ND’s campus should be objectively and universally exalted as the most divinely beautiful campus on the planet (like people on this forum state as if it is an objective, verifiable fact). No, I do not believe that lax enforcement of dorm rules prohibiting members of the opposite sex and/or drinking alcohol means that the school is treating those persons as adults. </p>

<p>My dislike of Notre Dame is not irrational. I can clearly articulate valid reasons why many students should not go there. I also concede (and have conceded) that it is a selective school that other people would thrive by attending (i.e., those who wish to learn in an environment infused with Catholic notions of morality, etc.). But it is not for everyone, and it is NOT superior to Northwestern like those in this thread have insisted.</p>

<p>No, no, no, maverick; of course you’re not irrational. It’s time for your medication now.</p>

<p>“maverick…once again. get off nd forum. your negatively bias opinion is not valued here. and while you believe that it is rediculous that any school should have an undergraduate business program, i feel safe saying the vast majority of business people would disagree with you. that is a rediculous statement, and i think i’ll listen to the majority over you. it’s clear you do not like ND (or UND as you keep saying–yet another clue to your bias) and are perhaps an anti-Catholic, maybe even anti-Christian. go somewhere else”</p>

<p>Leave it to supporters of a religiously-based school to quell opposing viewpoints and demand compliance with their world view. Hence, why I would suggest attending ND is not a good fit for many.</p>

<p>yes, yes, yes, aristophanes; of course your post is devoid of any substance. Proceed with ad hominem attacks because you can’t add anything of value to the discussion. </p>

<p>By the way, your attempts to sound intelligent by awkwardly using 5 dollar words is nothing short of amusing (word choice, Aristophanes. word choice). If you could only hear the belly laughs I let out as I read, “It pains me somewhat that my architectural sympathies parallel maverick’s”</p>

<p>You can’t rationally discuss topics on which you know next to nothing.
You know next to nothing about Notre Dame. You are not a current student, graduate, parent, or faculty member.<br>
You are a self-described atheist who knows very little about the Catholic Church or her teachings. Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Have you read any of the papal encyclicals released in the past decade? Do you have the slightest understanding of the Catholic faith beyond what you’ve read or heard in the mainstream media?
How can you possibly claim to be in the position to help students make an “informed decision” about attending Notre Dame?</p>

<p>And whatever superior school you attended, they neglected to teach you that the word “like” should be used only with a substantive (as long as we’re being critical about word use).</p>

<p>The fact that you presume I know nothing about Notre Dame, know nothing of the Catholic church, when in fact you know NOTHING ABOUT ME, makes my very point for me. For all you know, I could be a priest heading up one of the dorms right now. </p>

<p>Name the factual inaccuracy I’ve stated about the Catholic church. It doesn’t oppose the use of birth control (even in developing third world countries with severe STD-related endemics and orphaned children)? It doesn’t oppose pre-marital sex? It hasn’t harbored priests known to have sexually assaulted children? You can argue all you want about papal encyclicals, but you are missing the forest for the trees. So do so-called religious scholars and theologians. They can discuss what certain passages of whatever texts should really mean, it doesn’t change what the Catholic church, as an institution, does or has done in this world. I don’t feel the need to listen to excuses that are designed to justify mistakes of those purporting to act on behalf of an all knowing, all loving, all powerful deity. </p>

<p>Similarly, besides incorrectly attributing the gaudiness of the golden dome to the wrong building, name the factual inaccuracy I’ve stated about Notre Dame? Its students don’t live in a dorm with a rector that is a priest/brother/sister? Students are allowed not to have members of the opposite sex in their dorm rooms? You may disagree with some of my opinions, but that’s why I labeled those as my opinion.</p>

<p>I believe I have contributed greatly to the discussions on this board. People making bald assertions about ND undergrad business being a better decision for some 18 year old looking to go into finance/econ/business than Northwestern, without any support whatsoever, deserves a response. I believe someone in the position of the original poster deserves to know that a student at Northwestern can study econ (even taking grad level econ classes or possibly even obtain a dual ba/ma in 4 yrs), take classes at Kellogg (a business school far superior to Mendoza), and have opportunities to partake in internships during the school year at investment banks and other finance-related institutions in the city of Chicago…and that these qualifications/advantages are viewed by many in the professional world as superior to those who simply received an undergrad degree in business at ND.</p>

<p>The fact that you presume I know nothing about Notre Dame, know nothing of the Catholic church, when in fact you know NOTHING ABOUT ME, makes my very point for me. For all you know, I could be a priest heading up one of the dorms right now. </p>

<p>Name the factual inaccuracy I’ve stated about the Catholic church. It doesn’t oppose the use of birth control (even in developing third world countries with severe STD-related endemics and orphaned children)? It doesn’t oppose pre-marital sex? It hasn’t harbored priests known to have sexually assaulted children? You can argue all you want about papal encyclicals, but you are missing the forest for the trees. So do so-called religious scholars and theologians. They can discuss what certain passages of whatever texts should really mean, it doesn’t change what the Catholic church, as an institution, does or has done in this world. I don’t feel the need to listen to excuses that are designed to justify mistakes of those purporting to act on behalf of an all knowing, all loving, all powerful deity. </p>

<p>Similarly, besides incorrectly attributing the gaudiness of the golden dome to the wrong building, name the factual inaccuracy I’ve stated about Notre Dame? Its students don’t live in a dorm with a rector that is a priest/brother/sister? Students are allowed not to have members of the opposite sex in their dorm rooms? You may disagree with some of my opinions, but that’s why I labeled those as my opinion.</p>

<p>I believe I have contributed greatly to the discussions on this board. People making bald assertions about ND undergrad business being a better decision for some 18 year old looking to go into finance/econ/business than Northwestern, without any support whatsoever, deserves a response. I believe someone in the position of the original poster deserves to know that a student at Northwestern can study econ (even taking grad level econ classes or possibly even obtain a dual ba/ma in 4 yrs), take classes at Kellogg (a business school far superior to Mendoza), and have opportunities to partake in internships during the school year at investment banks and other finance-related institutions in the city of Chicago…and that these qualifications/advantages are viewed by many in the professional world as superior to those who simply received an undergrad degree in business at ND.</p>

<p>I believe maverick, that on another thread in this ND forum, you indicated that business schools were not for undergrads–and Northwestern is far superior? It is indeed your tone that makes your arguments less than credible. Tone it down and learn to respect the opinions of others. Attack is not the method to use to convince an 18 year old of attending/not attending a particular college. Go back and re-read some of your posts and consider how you present your argument!</p>

<p>ok…so what was his point again?
oh yeah wait… cmon man…you did not even graduate from northwestern. Also i looked at some posts posted by you and hahahah you seem more just like a notre dame hater. what, you have grudge against them?</p>

<p>maverick…get a life. JESUS! you STAY on cc (computer), which also makes me wonder if you qualify as a legitimate opinion. yes, you are right this is indeed for STUDENTS, primarily, and i think most will agree that your posts aren’t all that helpful (contrary to your egotistical superiority complex).</p>

<p>Maverick, I appreciate a lot of what you’ve been saying - many of the points you’ve made about undergraduate business experience is clearly valid, and would very much help deciding high school seniors in their decision making process. I also apologize for the reaction you’ve been getting from some of the posters on here, but in most cases, they are taking exception to your style of response, rather than the content of your posts.</p>

<p>Through no fault of your own, other than lack of experience, it’s obvious that you may not be fully informed of the general tone, expectations, and content of posts on these boards. College Confidential, as a whole, is expected to give objective analyses of the various aspects of undergraduate and graduate life and education. However, what is necessary to remember is that while College Confidential as a whole is objective, this happens to be a specifically Notre Dame forum. Threads like these are presumed to be posted in duplicate in the respective forums of the schools being discussed. </p>

<p>One cannot expect these self-professed Notre Dame fanboys (myself included) to be fully informed universally about other experiences. The best they can do is give their personal impression of their own experience. And, as a result, one cannot expect them to suffer easily constant jabs and criticisms of the place in which they have invested so much time, love, and devotion (not to mention money). </p>

<p>Constructive and informative discussion is encouraged, but I would suggest you try a bit harder at not taking the bait and becoming defensive.</p>

<p>You’re exceptionally diplomatic, kevdude. Yes, I’ve been guilty of taunting the rabid maverick. But I would still like to assure people who might think that he knows what he’s talking about that some of his observations betray his ignorance. One that is rather telling is his comment about the cheap buildings. Of the many, many buildings that have appeared at Notre Dame over the past couple of decades, most of them could be called scandalously opulent; I have very seldom seen buildings put up during the past half-century with such expensive detailing and craftsmanship. Either maverick hasn’t been to ND in a very long time or he is blind.</p>

<p>For example, this is only one of five performance spaces in the same complex: [Judd</a> and Mary Lou Leighton Concert Hall // Virtual Tour // Sights and Sounds // Campus and Community // University of Notre Dame](<a href=“http://nd.edu/campus-and-community/sights-sounds/virtual-tour/dpac-int/#tour-nav]Judd”>http://nd.edu/campus-and-community/sights-sounds/virtual-tour/dpac-int/#tour-nav)</p>

<p>I know we don’t want to appease him, but he wants answers so I’ll give them:</p>

<p>No, maverick is not a rector in a dorm at Notre Dame.</p>

<p>The Catholic Church administers 25% of the AIDS therapy to people in Africa. That probably doesn’t redeem the institution though.</p>

<p>Some of mavericks peers at Chicago allegedly got a BA/MA in economics in four years. Some how in a later post this morphed into students at Northwestern can get BA/MAs in four years. The problem with this is that I’m willing to bet that neither school gives BA/MAs in economics in four years unless you are a genius. In such a case the student wouldn’t even be competing with undergraduates for jobs because he or she would be at Harvard or MIT or Princeton getting a PhD.</p>

<p>Maverick is right, talking about theology doesn’t change past actions. He got that one. Nice.</p>

<p>Some women’s dorms have lay women as rectresses. Give him a half-point for that.</p>

<p>Opposite sex visitors are not allowed in dorm rooms after midnight Sunday - Thursday and after 2 am on Friday and Saturday. Each dorm has a 24 hour lounge.</p>

<p>Undergraduates can take graduate level courses at Notre Dame, provided that they have an academic justification and room in their schedule.</p>

<p>What are the drinking rules at Northwestern might I ask? At Notre Dame you just can’t have anything over 14% in your room if you are 21. And no games, of course, you just have to keep the door closed. (Domers correct me if I’m wrong)</p>

<p>And hey one more thing, yes the Church does oppose premarital sex. Come to think of it, if no one had premarital sex, wouldn’t that eliminate STDs?</p>

<p>i’ve noticed several times in this topic that you guys think undergrads at NU can take classes at Kellogg, but that isn’t true. I was there today talking to an admissions officer in the MBA kellogg program and she told me that undergrads don’t take any classes at the kellogg school besides the finance certificate, which aren’t even through the kellogg school, they just helped set up the program and somewhat guide the program. i just wanted to clear up this little inaccuracy i noticed</p>

<p>Seeing that I actually was no longer bored at work, I was going to let this nonsense go. But I’ve changed my mind.</p>

<p>“'I’ve noticed several times in this topic that you guys think undergrads at NU can take classes at Kellogg, but that isn’t true. I was there today talking to an admissions officer in the MBA kellogg program and she told me that undergrads don’t take any classes at the kellogg school besides the finance certificate, which aren’t even through the kellogg school, they just helped set up the program and somewhat guide the program. i just wanted to clear up this little inaccuracy i noticed”</p>

<p>That’s not an inaccuracy. As a practical matter, I have no idea where the physical location of the class is, but it simply does not matter. A Northwestern undergrad can get a certificate (not in finance, it is a general certificate in management/business) from Kellogg, one of the most prestigious business schools in the country.</p>

<p>[Kellogg</a> School Certificate Program for Undergraduates - Kellogg School of Management - Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/certificate/index.htm]Kellogg”>http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/certificate/index.htm)</p>

<p>“I know we don’t want to appease him, but he wants answers so I’ll give them”</p>

<p>No, I didn’t ask for answers. I asked why I was being attacked as uninformed (or worse) while not a single person bothered to address, let alone disprove, a single statement I made. You, sir, have continued that tradition.</p>

<p>“No, maverick is not a rector in a dorm at Notre Dame.”</p>

<p>Care to prove that statement? Stating a presumption as if it is a factual assertion does not make it true. In fact, all you managed to do is prove yet again that the ardent ND supporters on this board trend towards presumptuousness. </p>

<p>"The Catholic Church administers 25% of the AIDS therapy to people in Africa. That probably doesn’t redeem the institution though.</p>

<p>And, according to the cute kid in Jerry Maguire, the average human head weights 8 lbs. So what? This doesn’t disprove anything I said. Furthermore, to many of us non-Catholics, it does not redeem the institution. You cannot blow up my father’s free clinic, rape my child and torture my great grandfather in the name of “God” and consider yourself redeemed by giving me a cookie.</p>

<p>“Some of mavericks peers at Chicago allegedly got a BA/MA in economics in four years.”</p>

<p>Are you saying I’m mistaken, or that I’m a liar? Again, care to back that statement up? The fact is, almost a decade ago (when I actually attended the school), getting the 5-year dual B.A./J.D. at the Law School was competitive, the 6-year dual B.A./M.D. at Pritzker was VERY competitive, but the dual B.A./M.A. in econ was not. In fact, two of my close personal friends completed that program.</p>

<p>“Some how in a later post this morphed into students at Northwestern can get BA/MAs in four years.”</p>

<p>I don’t know whether or not Northwestern students have the same opportunities as Chicago ones. Both being major research universities, however, if I had to wager I’d say that they do. But note I never claimed that I knew that for a fact: I specifically stated “possibly even obtain a dual ba/ma in 4 yrs.” The key word in that phrase is POSSIBLY.</p>

<p>“The problem with this is that I’m willing to bet that neither school gives BA/MAs in economics in four years unless you are a genius. In such a case the student wouldn’t even be competing with undergraduates for jobs because he or she would be at Harvard or MIT or Princeton getting a PhD.”</p>

<p>You can bet, but you’d be wrong. One of my friends that did the dual B.A./M.A. in econ at Chicago went on to become a professor. The other went straight into the private sector, working at McKinsey (which, coincidentally, doesn’t even recruit at ND, or at least it didn’t when I was there). Both are bright guys, but I doubt they’re certified geniuses and they’re definitely not uniquely bright in relation to my other peers from that school.</p>

<p>“Maverick is right, talking about theology doesn’t change past actions. He got that one. Nice.”</p>

<p>Gee, thanks.</p>

<p>“Some women’s dorms have lay women as rectresses. Give him a half-point for that.”</p>

<p>Thanks again, but I’m not sure if that changes my point at all.</p>

<p>“Opposite sex visitors are not allowed in dorm rooms after midnight Sunday - Thursday and after 2 am on Friday and Saturday. Each dorm has a 24 hour lounge.”</p>

<p>Again, doesn’t disprove anything I previously said, nor does it change my point.</p>

<p>“Undergraduates can take graduate level courses at Notre Dame, provided that they have an academic justification and room in their schedule.”</p>

<p>At least at Chicago, but I’ve been told by Northwestern grads that there as well, there is no “academic justification” needed to take graduate level courses. The point you miss is that, at UChicago at least, there really are no undergraduate or graduate programs. There’s the College, through which you take your Core Curriculum classes (even though the professors are the same as in graduate department; no one is allowed to be a dedicated graduate or undergraduate professor, and all are required to teach undergrads), and then the departments, where you take your concentration courses. The vast majority of these concentration courses are dual-listed with both an undergraduate and graduate course number. In other words, instead of getting taught BY graduate students, you are taking the same classes WITH graduate students as your peers.</p>

<p>“What are the drinking rules at Northwestern might I ask? At Notre Dame you just can’t have anything over 14% in your room if you are 21. And no games, of course, you just have to keep the door closed. (Domers correct me if I’m wrong)”</p>

<p>I have no idea what the current drinking rules are at Northwestern. I know at UChicago, they actually had free booze at school-sponsored parties (ahh, blues and ribs, how I miss you). My dorm was not only co-ed, we had co-ed bathrooms (boy, you haven’t grown up until you’ve heard the cute girl you had a crush on from afar fart in the stall next to you). But that’s not the point. My point is that Notre Dame legislates its version of morality onto its students. It discourages underage drinking, and it discourages premarital sex. For those that believe in these Catholic principles, that shouldn’t bother you. For the rest, that is something to keep in mind. You can’t have it both ways: it’s either a Catholic school or it’s not. Stop pretending it can be both.</p>

<p>“And hey one more thing, yes the Church does oppose premarital sex. Come to think of it, if no one had premarital sex, wouldn’t that eliminate STDs?”</p>

<p>Does this address any point I made? No. But to answer your question anyway, no, it wouldn’t eliminate STDs. Some STDs can be transmitted sexually, despite originating organically (e.g., b.v.). Others are transmitted sexually but can also be transmitted non-sexually, such as HIV. Again, more flawed reasoning.</p>

<p>The fact is, the reason why people like me come on here and antagonize you folks is that ND supporters, on a whole, are over-zealous and just a little (unjustifiably) full of themselves. They do stuff like cite undergrad business school rankings to justify unfounded statements like “Of course ND is a better choice than Northwestern if you want to go into business,” but then decry how useless rankings are when you mention that Northwestern, UChicago and WashU are ranked higher than them in the undergraduate rankings. It’s also a fact that, while Notre Dame focuses on what they think they are supposed to be teaching, other universities are busy experimenting, writing and otherwise creating the theories and ideas which those ND professors will be teaching. Would you rather read about the Big Bang Theory, or be a research assistant on the team that first espouses it? Would you rather read about archaeology, or go on an archaeological dig with the guy that discovered the process of radio carbon dating?</p>

<p>The fact is, ND focuses on teaching. They teach young men and women to be good, educated human beings…but from a Catholic perspective. If that’s what you’re into, than so be it. But like I said before, it’s not for everyone. For some, including myself, we consider this a glorified extension of high school.</p>

<p>As a current student considering transfer, I can sympathize with a lot of maverick’s opinions, and the overall response to his comments makes me really disappointed with ND supporters’ ability to logically address arguments and form cogent counterarguments. Aristophanes pointed out a few factual inaccuracies in maverick’s responses, but the overall thrust of his argument has yet to be addressed, perhaps because it’s…mostly true.</p>

<p>The imposition of a Catholic worldview upon students through policies like parietals, single-sex dorms, and condemnation of sex and drug use limit the university’s growth potential as a true bastion of free thought and research. Though Jenkins is trying to change the school’s mission to better reflect modern society and allow it to compete with major research universities, closed-minded alumni continue to preclude the possibility of Notre Dame shedding its conservative image, especially through this recent Obama fiasco.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that ND, through its imposition of morality upon students and commitment to Catholicism, will always be inherently limited in its efforts to become a major research university. Also, the bit about ND being a “glorified extension of high school,” while very misleading, has a ring of truth in that the restrictions imposed upon ND students prevent them from being able to learn to live independently, relying on only their own values and morals for guidance. ND’s relatively desolate location compared to great city schools like U of C and NU also allows this “bubble” atmosphere to be easily maintained, as the outside world is relatively cut off from ND.</p>

<p>I feel that this isolation and existence within a framework of rules and opinions adherent to the Catholic worldview is not the optimal environment for my personal growth, and while I have learned a lot while here, my desire to be in a setting more intertwined with the real world may outweigh the easiness of deciding to stay here for the next three years.</p>

<p>Also, ND people (the older folk that show up on football weekends) can, on occasion, be incredibly obnoxious and ignorant, as their overwhelming commitment to their school can often cloud their ability to discern a fact such as that Northwestern is simply a more academically rigorous school and would better (albeit only slightly) prepare most hardworking, high-achieving students for careers allowing them to live with fewer rules and restrictions and through tougher, less forgiving classes. </p>

<p>ND’s appeal is extremely strong among a certain demographic (namely, committed Catholics who feel irritated and threatened by the presence of non-Catholics who seek Catholicism as a greater context for their entire education), but for those of us seeking to expand our perspectives on the real world and liberate ourselves from the subculture in which we were raised, allowing us to truly sink or swim, depending upon no one but ourselves, I feel that the atmosphere at this school can be stifling and that such students would be better off going elsewhere.</p>

<p>I truly admire the University of Chicago (as I’ve said elsewhere), and members of my family have gone there and flourished, but I have misgivings about it too. Someone who’s very dear to me graduated from the U of C a couple of years back, and a few months ago she told me that three of her friends from there had committed suicide during the past year. Also, several years ago a relative of mine who went there was parking her bicycle outside her dorm (the old hotel they were using on the lakefront) when a student jumped from an upper story and landed at her feet. Now obviously some people dislike a religious milieu, but there is something to be said for the spiritual atmosphere at a school like Notre Dame. I certainly am not claiming that students there don’t have psychological problems, etc., but from my own experience I can say that students are treated in a holistic way- not as automatons or recalcitrant children as has been suggested here. I don’t view this as a kind of safety shield, but rather as something that is wholly positive, and extremely rare.</p>

<p>“[T]he overall response to his comments makes me really disappointed with ND supporters’ ability to logically address arguments and form cogent counterarguments.” I second that. I also find it a little bizarre that some of the supporters are still in high school, apparently have done next to no research on Northwestern, yet seem confident in asserting that Notre Dame is better school. I think that’s what originally set off maverick1978.</p>

<p>For the record:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Northwestern econ does offer a four-year BA/MA program (see [Undergraduate:</a> BA/MA Program, Economics Dept., NU](<a href=“http://www.econ.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/fouryear.html]Undergraduate:”>http://www.econ.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/fouryear.html)). Yes, it sounds like a pretty competitive program, although I don’t know that it’s restricted to MIT PhD candidates.</p></li>
<li><p>Kellogg professors do teach the Certificate Program for Undergraduates classes. “Each certificate consists of four courses, taught at advanced level by Kellogg faculty” (see <a href=“Certificate Program for Undergraduates”>http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/certificate/images/fast%20facts%204-1-09.pdf&lt;/a&gt;).</p></li>
</ul>

<hr>

<p>airbag, I actually transferred from ND to NU after my freshman year. It was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. ND is a unique place. Most students love it, but it is a terrible fit for certain people. One might even argue—and this is the type of thing that gets the more pompous Domers’ noses out of joint—that it’s a poor fit for the typical student at any of the nation’s stronger schools. After visiting ND, a high school friend of mine and then-Stanford undergraduate asked me incredulously, “How did you survive a whole year there?”</p>

<p>Transferring can be a mixed bag. One downside is that it may compromise your sense of belonging to a particular graduating class. (I should point out that I also graduated early, which further separated me from my NU classmates.) On balance though, it can be an incredibly positive step. Two of my friends from Notre Dame really enjoyed their time there. A third later confided to me that a trip to New York to visit a high school friend at Columbia made him realize that he may have picked the wrong school.</p>

<p>My sense from your post is that you should give serious thought to transferring. Best of luck to you, whether you decide to stay at Notre Dame or not.</p>