NEA to lobby hard for illegals' in-state tuition

Parent Cafe
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<p>jonri, you might want to get your facts right.</p>

<p>A lot of Chinese people want to, and indeed, get to immigrate the US. The Chinese gov’t does not encourage it, but emigration to first-world Western nations is very popular among the general population. Illegal, “boat-people” style claiming of refugee status by people who otherwise would not have qualified by normal American immigration standards, just for migratory purposes, however, are widely ridiculed. </p>

<p>The reason the discussion centers around Mexicans is quite simple; the Mexican population forms the great majority of the illegal immigration problem. In fact, it is a rather exclusive matter, as there has historically been much less issue with the Miami Cubans, who were largely legal. The fact that the large (and legal) Hispanic presence in Miami does not ring national alarm bells and yet the large (and mostly illegal) presence of Mexicans in California or Texas or Arizona or whatever, does, is an indication that those who oppose illegal alien residency aren’t racist bigots. The distinction here isn’t between Hispanics and non-Hispanics, as the above example demonstrated. It is between illegal and legal non-American persons. </p>

<p>What authority does the US have to establish and assert law and order abroad, after all, in places like the Middle East, when it cannot even enforce the existing law and order infrastructure here on the home front, and sufficiently prosecute those who are in contempt of the law? (yes that is the correct legal term, in case anyone wanted to take issue with it.)</p>

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<p>On a side note, I always find it interesting (and somewhat offensive) when advocates of illegal immigration imply that “brilliance” is a justification for granting special consideration to certain illegal immigrants. Very frequently, I will see a bio about an academically gifted illegal immigrant student, which intimates that it is a shame that s/he is not awarded legal status because of his/her academic success. It is ironic, because apparently the reason illegal immigrants are here is because the U.S. is short on cheap laborers, not college-bound students, and it is offensive, because it implies that “smart” illegal immigrants are somehow more valuable than average ones. Call me naive, but I’ve assumed that every human life is equally valuable.</p>

103

<p>Re post 101. What is relevant is not what Chinese policies towards immigration are now; what’s relevant is those policies 15-20 years ago when many of the Chinese who are now in college or high school arrived here as young children.</p>

<p>You may remember something called Tiananmen Square. It happened in
1989. China cracked down on emigration during that time period. A fair number of Chinese came to the US illegally in the five year period after that event. While some were able to regularize their status, many were not. Their children are illegals. Those children have grown up in the US. </p>

<p>BTW, not everyone who is born in the US is eligible for US citizenship. If your parent is here as an employee of an embassy or consulate or of an international organization, you don’t get citizenship by being born here. </p>

<p>Then there are the people you ridicule as “boat people.” They came here illegally as cheap labor. Their kids grew up here too. They had more opportunities than their parents and many have done very well academically.</p>

<p>And, I’ve never heard of North Korea making it easy to come to the US. </p>

<p>RE post #102. Bay, I agree with you–but our immigration laws do not. They favor the educated and skilled, not the unskilled.If you think that’s immoral, then I urge you to write to your Congressional rep and Senator and ask them to work towards a change in our immigration policies. </p>

<p>Moreover, I was reacting to earlier posts which made it seem as if not only the illegal alien parents were a drain on the US, but all of their children are too. (See, for example, your own post #93, Bay.) That’s far from true. Many of the very smart kids who are illegals and are now in college or approaching college age are the children of unskilled laborers, who came here as “economic” refugees–a category that doesn’t get you into the US. However, the children of those refugees have grown up here and many of them are for all practical purposes Americans. </p>

<p>That’s true of many other groups besides Chinese and Koreans. In my neighborhood, it seems to be particularly true of Haitians. They have almost no chance of getting political asylum, even if they have run afoul of the government. </p>

<p>To both of you, I think you are missing the point that we have thousands of illegal aliens who came to the US when they were very young. In most cases, nobody was thinking about where they would go to college. Mom and dad just wanted to put food on the table. Due to our lax enforcement, mom and dad were able to stay here for many years. The kids who came here as infants or toddlers are now young adults, who have no familiarity with their homelands and in many cases cannot read or write in their native tongues. </p>

<p>If they are caught do we deport them even if they have never been in trouble in the US and have played by every other rule? Even if they came here when they were so young that it would be laughable to hold them responsible for the fact that they did not get here legally? </p>

<p>Personally, I would be opposed to the idea that any kid who manages to stay here for three years of high school can be considered in state. However, I tend to think that any kid who is in the US by some age like 10, remains here continuously and isn’t “caught” before finishing high school at an American high school, should be given some very easy way to regularize his or her status.</p>

104

<p>Guest worker visas I have no problems with. What I have a problem with is the ridiculous and overwhelming number that is simply swamping America. A greater proportion of Americans now speak Spanish as their home tongue than is the case with Francophone Canadians, and Canada is an officially bilingual country where all government business is supposed to be both in English and French, and a French language education is pretty much mandatory up until senior high. That is the degree of the problem we are facing. No longer is it just a series of incidents that affront the law; now the illegal immigration wave threatens to capsize the ship that is America. It is impossible, indeed, to pass through Central California without having been uncomfortably reminded as to how the area is no more Anglophone than Tijuana. Mexicans aren’t joining America; they are invading and taking over it.</p>

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<p>You are wrong about that. Of the 1million+ people granted permanent legal residence status in 2007, only 70,000 were “priority” workers or professionals with advanced degrees. Most were family members or refugees. <a href=“http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/LPR_FR_2007.pdf[/url]”>http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/LPR_FR_2007.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>They are both a drain on the U.S., because whether they are children or adults, illegal immigrants are not eligible, nor will they ever be eligible, to legally work in this country. Therefore, they will always need to rely on free government services, rather than employment benefits, to support themselves.</p>

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<p>I didn’t miss that point. The last time I checked, college was a privilege, not a right, even for U.S. citizens. Not everyone gets to go, including those who cannot find a way to pay. This is not the end of the world by any means, and to imply so is insulting to every U.S. citizen who chose a career path that did not include college.</p>

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<p>“Here in NYC, at least, not all illegal aliens are Hispanic.”</p>

<p>Here out west, not all illegal aliens are Hispanic, as well. Are you assuming that holding the line on illegals should apply only to Hispanics? I don’t assume that. Asian stowaways are quite rampant, btw. The point about emphasizing the size of the Hispanic population is that they’ve reached such levels in the public schools that they are an overwhelming majority in all but the very wealthy districts, which are few. That majority creates a de facto Hispanic culture, priority, and language in the schools. That’s why post 99 rings true: it’s exactly what’s happening in my region, too. Doesn’t matter what the laws are: there’s educational anarchy & counter-culture dominating the publics by virtue of the size of the incoming population. And there really are non-Hispanic minorities in those same schools who are getting cheated major. But I’m sure in jonri’s view, this is perfectly acceptable, because after all the majority are supposedly being deprived of their homeland & they’re probably “brilliant,” thus this is a kind of ‘rough justice,’ as the term goes. And naturally Americans just need to learn to live with that.</p>

<p>QUOTE:
“we have thousands of illegal aliens who came to the US when they were very young. In most cases, nobody was thinking about where they would go to college. Mom and dad just wanted to put food on the table. Due to our lax enforcement, mom and dad were able to stay here for many years. The kids who came here as infants or toddlers are now young adults, who have no familiarity with their homelands and in many cases cannot read or write in their native tongues.”</p>

<p>(Where’s my violin? I’m sure I saw it around here some place.) AMERICAN Moms and Dads also just want to put food on the table. Where have you been? Do you not see how the economy has taken its toll on all classes, but especially those legal citizens in our own country who most think about where the next meal is coming from? You seem to have some notion that every legal resident here has abundance. Well, if they up & moved to a Third World, they would, by comparison, be wealthy, given whatever acquired earning power & possessions they’ve managed to achieve here. But in the U.S. standard of living & daily, required expenses, they’re thinking about whether they should buy cereal or bread tomorrow – or neither – given the rise in the cost of domestic grain, the cost of gas, etc.</p>

<p>QUOTE:
“I tend to think that any kid who is in the US by some age like 10, remains here continuously and isn’t “caught” before finishing high school at an American high school, should be given some very easy way to regularize his or her status.”</p>

<p>And I tend to think that they should not be rewarded with additional free rides as a validation of their PARENTS’ conscious deception, but that they, even as passive recipients of our largesse, should be given 5 years of mandatory governmental service in a variety of venues from which they may choose. If there were 10, at 18 they’ve been given 8 years of services. Five years will buy their parents permanent amnesty, allow them to demonstrate how grateful they are with such labor repayment, not make a mockery out of legal immigration, & keep their modest dollars within this country for that period of time. After their 5 years of gov’t service on a subsistence salary, their parents will earn automatic citizenship if those parents have been law-abiding as well. </p>

<p>I think that proposal is more than generous. The fact is, it is not the U.S. gov’t that puts the children of illegals at risk. It is the immigrant parents that put their own children in legal harm’s way by taking such a chance. Yes, I know why they did so: for economic opportunity. But they are not experiencing famine in Mexico, so I don’t quite define that journey to be as much of an act of desperation as I would the attempt from some other countries.</p>

107

<p>Some of you don’t even realize how much you’re heading towards a bigoted, racist direction in this argument.</p>

<p>Some of you really need to go back and read the Constitution before you open your mouths again.</p>

<p>The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution provides that “[n]o State shall…deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”</p>

<p>As a population within the state’s jurisdiction, undocumented students were, therefore, entitled to equal treatment under the law. In the opinion of the Court, Associate Justice William J. Brennan Jr., wrote, “To permit a state … to identify subclasses of persons whom it would define as beyond its jurisdiction, thereby
relieving itself of the obligation to assure that its laws are designed and applied equally to those persons, would undermine the principal purpose for which the Equal Protection Clause was incorporated in the Fourteenth Amendment.”</p>

<p>In other words, even undocumented students are protected by the law. Making them second class citizens and permanently restricting them from gaining citizenship and pushing them into a life of minimum wage labor is almost like re-enacting slavory again. Shame on you, all of you, who blame the children in this matter.</p>

<p>Their parents came here because they had no choice. I won’t go into this, but remember that the US has exploited Mexico and other nations in the past, so the US needs to at least help those countries economically, or else the flood will keep coming.
These undocumented children have done nothing wrong. Some came here when they were only a few months old. The USA is what they have learned to love and they count it as their home. Many of them are willing to die for it. Some are even more patriotic than children who are born in the USA to American parents. So then, why should these children suffer when they may offer more than some other AMERICAN children are willing to offer?
The law has already stipulated their protection, now the government has to stop being whimsical and follow through with the law.</p>

<p>Next point.
NEVER call an undocumented person ILLEGAL. They are not illegal.
According to the law, it is not illegal to be in the United States without papers. At best, under statutory law, it is a misdemeanor. AND because of practice, it has become a CIVIL VIOLATION OF THE LAW.</p>

<p>Then it comes to the matter of them actually being here. Undocumented immigrants come here and find a willing population that wants to hire them, exploit them, sell them goods, and do business with them. If Americans really didn’t like undocumented immigrants, then they’d have boycotted them a long time ago.
Never forget that if all of the undocumented workers from Texas were made to leave, the state would lose more than $40 billion in revenue.</p>

<p>And I really want to raise this issue.
Don’t even think of saying that these children are stealing your tax dollars. It has been found that the average undocumented worker pays more in taxes than they get in benefits (around $80,000 that they actually lose out on). And yes, according to a statistic, 85% of undocumented workers do pay their taxes, with an ITSN number. </p>

<p>And I’ll just end with this point for now.
Undocumented children deserve to go to college. Heck, even our nation beckons more people to go to college. For such a rich nation, only 13% of the nation actually holds anything higher than a bachelors degree. There is constantly a call for more students to go into engineering and into the scientific field. Why then do we not let these undocumented children be given a chance to go to college and enter into these fields? Instead of wasting Visas to import Chinese, Indian, European workers and their whole families over here to work for us; how about we give children who have been raised here the chance to get a decent education to benefit our nation? It’s as simple as that.</p>

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<p>“Don’t even think of saying that these children are stealing your tax dollars. It has been found that the average undocumented worker pays more in taxes than they get in benefits (around $80,000 that they actually lose out on). And yes, according to a statistic, 85% of undocumented workers do pay their taxes, with an ITSN number.”</p>

<p>Citation please.</p>

<p>From a pragmatic perspective, what do you do if your school district gets destroyed by a wave of immigration. The school district that you helped to improve, that you paid for with your tax dollars, that you may work in? What do you do when a crime wave hits your middle and high schools?</p>

<p>Personally, I think the US could do with a little wage inflation.</p>

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<p>^
[Undocumented</a> Immigrants Pay Taxes, Invest in America | DMI Blog](<a href=“http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/2007/04/undocumented_immigrants_pay_ta.html]Undocumented”>Undocumented Immigrants Pay Taxes, Invest in America | DMI Blog)</p>

<p>“What do you do when a crime wave hits your middle and high schools?”
What type of a racial stereotype is this?
Native born Americans tend to be more violent than immigrants because immigrants are afraid of doing bad things and getting into trouble because they know that they can be deported, while natives with their citizenships know that they can’t be deported anywhere, duh.</p>

110

<p>“What type of a racial stereotype is this?”</p>

<p>You need to take a hard look in the mirror to see your own racist and inflammatory language.</p>

<p>“Native born Americans tend to be more violent than immigrants because immigrants are afraid of doing bad things and getting into trouble because they know that they can be deported, while natives with their citizenships know that they can’t be deported anywhere, duh.”</p>

<p>Rubbish.</p>

<p>It was an obvious statistical change in the city where I work.</p>

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<p>That web site makes assertions without references. It’s pretty useless from a scholarly perspective. For all you know, they could just be pulling numbers out of a hat.</p>

112

<p>“Some of you really need to go back and read the Constitution before you open your mouths again.”</p>

<p>And you just need to become informed about the capacity of a country to absorb new arrivals of any background, race, class, skin color at an exponential & uncontrolled rate, without any mapping of consequences & without a deliberate policy. Has nothing to do with race, bigotry, etc. Has everything to do with mathematics.</p>

<p>Further, several of us on this thread (& earlier, other threads, before you came to CC) have proposed solutions which would eliminate or at least reduce the probability of exploitation, encourage legal permanent residence, but in a way that does not rob legal immigrants of the justice they deserve. </p>

<p>I see you’re part of the all-or-nothing crowd I predicted would come on board and bash any person who so much as suggests that even the U.S. does not have infinite space & resources. You just want to continue the current situation of chaos. Many of us want to transform the chaos into a healthy policy benefiting immigrant & non-immigrant alike.</p>

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<p>It sounds like you are the one who needs to educate himself. Undocumented children are allowed to attend college in the U.S. They cannot get federal financial aid, but neither can the children of wealthy U.S. citizens who won’t pay for their education. Some u’s are “status blind” when it comes to aid, including some of the top schools in the country, so those undocumented students, if poor, even get to go for free. So, what was your complaint again?</p>

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<p>For balanced perspectives on the problem, I’d suggest:</p>

<p>Immigration Debate: Can politicians find a way to curb illegal immigration by Alan Greenblatt. CQ Researcher, February 1, 2008, Volume 18, Issue 5.</p>

<p>Domestic Poverty: Is a new approach needed to help the poorest Americans? by Thomas J. Billitteri. CQ Researcher, September 7, 2007, Volume 17, Issue 31.</p>

<p>Illegal Immigration: Do illegal workers help or hurt the economy? by Peter Katel. CQ Researcher, May 6, 2005, Volume 15, Issue 17.</p>

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<p>There is research indicating that Hispanic immigrants don’t cost particular government institutions much while contributing to the economy. An example is at: [UNC</a> Kenan-Flagler Business School :](<a href=“http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/KI/reports/2006_HispanicStudy/]UNC”>http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/KI/reports/2006_HispanicStudy/)</p>

<p>The claim in the article is that the Hispanic population costs the state budget a net $102 per Hispanic resident in health care, education and correctional services. That’s fine for the state budget but what about all of the other government expenses? There’s the rub. The headline looks great but the hamburger is all bun.</p>

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<p>It doesn’t matter what person A is costing the gov’t, Hispanic or no.</p>

<p>It matters if Person A or Population A is breaking the law. Law-breakers need to be prosecuted, not coddled. It makes no difference if the law-breaker is a Mexican. Being Mexican makes you no less of a law-breaker. No way law-breakers (immigration and border laws, in addition to subsequent fraudulent behaviour and employment law infringements), conscious or not, should get free college rides. If you kill someone unconsciously, it’s still manslaughter. If you break the law unconsciously, you are still breaking the law.k There is no mushy grey area. You either break the law, or you don’t. And if you do, you need to be prosecuted and punished. Doesn’t matter how poignant or sentimental that particular case or story is.</p>

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<p>Zester, there are illegal immigrants here who do pay taxes, but many here do not. They are paid strictly on a cash basis. I live less than a mile from a center where every morning hundreds of men, mostly Hispanic, gather looking for work. Trucks come by and they pick them up for a day’s work. They do lawn work, construction work, you name it. All strictly on a cash basis. The cleaning ladies in this area are also on a cash basis. I had a very difficult time getting anyone who would be paid legally. THe only way to do so is to go through an agency at very high prices with the agency taking a big cut out of the payment and they presumably are paying the employees legally, something that does not always happen, I have found, with some of these agencies. They just pose as a front for for folks like me who insist on a legal passage of pay. Lower Westchester county has miles of Hispanic developments where English is definitely the second language and the schools are staffed with bi lingual teachers and the curriculum for these kids is set up for those who speak little English. Most of the districts will not ask for birth certificates or any proof of citizenship. It’s very much a don’t ask, don’t tell situation. Some districts like Scarsdale will not permit this and thus do not have the illegals living there or in their school system because they do ask and insist on documentation. </p>

<p>I don’t know what the impact of a total work stoppage from the illegals here would be. I have lived in Florida, Chicago and NY where they are without doubt a large part of certain aspects of the work force. But until we see first hand what that impact is, we don’t know. Right now, in this area, getting any kind of job for college students or high schoolers is very difficult since illegal labor is more the norm and much more profitable. My sons have worked in a number of restaurants and clubs where the pay for the bus boys and clean up crews have been all cash, and where they were the only English speakers on that part of the staff. If you need a work permit which the younger kids do, they won’t touch you since they have less liability and more flexibility with the illegal adults.</p>

<p>And, yes, they are here illegally. If their papers are examined, they will be deported. Every once in a while one of them goes astray of the law, and they do get deported when they can’t come up with legal id.</p>

<p>I don’t know what the solution for this is, but it has come to a ludicrous point when we are arguing about rights and privilege when we have created an under society who are not legal. They are not even second class citizens, because they are not even citizens, can’t become citizens, aren’t even guests. What a terrible position for them to be in. And the children are in a quandry, born or brought into the mess. They can’t get so many of the things out there and always live with this fear of getting caught, never can get jobs where their documents are checked, can’t go back to home country. Whatever the solution we choose to to take, there has to be a consistency in the way the law is applied. I can’t think of another situation where so many are involved where we put people in this gray non existence, and then argue about their rights to be their and what rights they have in there.</p>

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<p>Epiphany, I don’t think you understand that the Constitution > Your math. Regardless of what your stance is on illegals, about where they came from, what they’re doing - the Constitution has it clearly stated that they shall be protected and granted the same rights as we have.</p>

<p>I don’t see anyone trying to pass any amendment to this, yet we illegally continue to deny them rights.</p>

<p>Rather than putting any blame on these children (you do realize that some of these children are actually born here, but they cannot gain financial aid simply because they’re not 21 when they apply because of their parents), you need to look at the immigration system.</p>

<p>The Constitution calls upon Congress to “establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization” (Article 1 Section 8) and they have not done so - . You have a line of WILLING “legal” Americans waiting, but all I hear is xenophobia and false statistics that that put undocumented people down, promote everyone being “legal” - yet offering no avenue for people who wish to be “legal” to pursue.</p>

<p>For these kids, you should all back the DREAM ACT. The bill doesn’t even talk about giving undocumented children in-state tuition, but it does give them at least a chance to legalize if they go to a 2 year college, or serve in the military.
That way, you can’t complain that they’re not doing anything, or that they’re simply taking your tax dollars.</p>

<p>I believe that the politicians aren’t going to get much of this done, so it’s up to small interest groups to start something, and it’s up to us to support them.</p>

<p>@ Bay: At least when you have status as a citizen or PR, you can work for a decent wage, or even get out a loan to go to college. You can also apply for the Stafford Loan and Pell grant. Undocumented children cannot. They might try and work at minimum wage, but they still won’t be able to attend a top tier college if they can’t afford it. Heck, to get most fee waivers for college apps, tests etc, you need to show YOUR PARENTS’ tax returns. If your parents are also undocumented, then you won’t be able to prove that to get a bunch of fee waivers.
Most undocumented students decide to go to community colleges. And don’t forget, there are only about 9 states that even allow students to get in-state tuition and apply to the big colleges without documentation.</p>

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<p>Zest,</p>

<p>This issue has been hashed and rehashed on other threads. I don’t follow your point about fee waivers and tax returns, because in your earlier post, you asserted that 85% of illegal immigrants pay taxes. Are you saying that they are not filing tax returns? If not, then they are apparently not as law-abiding as you represent. I guess if they want fee waivers and financial aid, they will need to start filing tax returns like everyone else. They are not excused from reporting their income to the IRS, and why should they be?</p>

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<p>^ It was a hypothetical argument, however many can file with an ITSN number and will have that bare documentation.
I think that college board would wave them for some these simply through the school system. But remember, some colleges won’t without SSNs.</p>

<p>Anyway, I’m happy that the NEA is doing something since no one else wants to.</p>

<p>That’s my $.02</p>