Need advice about prep school and youth orchestra...

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>My ds is a percussionist. His teacher practically fell into his lap but I've been happy with him. He's mid-20s, an NEC graduate, reasonably priced, very encouraging and has taken him under his wing. But I know little about these things. Before finding this teacher, I had researched and there's a prep school at a major conservatory about an hour from us. Last I spoke to them, they have someone who could give son lessons once every 2 weeks on Saturdays. According to the prep program, students are not supposed to have outside teachers. Would you recommend switching, staying with his current teacher or seeing if I could have one teacher for one instrument and another for another instrument (since ds plays various percussion instruments)? </p>

<p>Also, ds' teacher helps coach a local inner-city youth orchestra that rehearses on Sat. It has a good reputation but is noncompetitve in that they have several orchestras and place you into the right one. Ds is interested in being in it because he wants to continue working with said teacher. But there's a better, fancier orchestra where we live. It's by audition only and I don't know if ds could get in; plus, I suspect it's expensive-- but I'm wondering if it would be a better experience. (And it rehearses weekdays. If he does the prep program, it would leave his saturdays available.) </p>

<p>Any advice?</p>

2

<p>First, how old is your son, and does he intend to pursue music as a career path, just play recreationally, or at this point is there no way of knowing?</p>

<p>The answers and advice (at least from what I'll offer) will vary.</p>

<p>If he is at all serious about music, and in high school or just entering, and potentially thinking of taking a music path, I'd suggest the more competitive program and the alternate teacher. I would strongly urge a trial lesson with the prospective teacher to see if student and teacher can work together, as this is a primary factor in successful student/mentor relationships; you see that now with his current teacher. (See added thought)</p>

<p>Multiple teachers on the same instrument is usually a no-no at the intermediate and beginner stages, and can be a sore point even at the advanced and pre-professional level. A lot will depend on the teacher's willingness to accept another source of input, particularly if the teachers have no knowledge of the other's rep or style. Sometimes, just ego gets in the way. On the other hand, there are noted teacher pairs (particularly in strings), where the student is effectively obligated to work with both.</p>

<p>The reality is that in a high level experience, the student actually has a number of teacher/mentors and can gain valuable musical knowledge (not necessarily instrumental expertise) from any number of sources... orchestral/ensemble directors, section coaches, chamber coaches, stand partners, peers.</p>

<p>I can't speak to percussionists in general, but if there are different areas of expertise on the different instruments, a potential working relationship between two teachers might be arranged. It has to be done openly, and with the full cooperation of all parties involved.</p>

<p>If he's still in middle school, and not sure how far he wants to go with music, I'd let him stay where he is. He's happy, learning, and having fun, with a teacher he enjoys. If he decides to step up the pace, you still have time to move forward next year.</p>

<p>One thought... a higher level program now will probably sort out for him if he's ready, willing and dedicated enough to WANT to pursue music as a career. The intense levels often discourage all but the most passionate. If it's in their blood, they tend to "know" early. If he's marginally interested, finding out now is better than as a freshman BM candidate.</p>

<p>Added thought: son, a violist, had a chamber coach who was for all intents and purposes his primary mentor. Juilliard trained, student of Delay, NY Phil chair. He would often seek her advice or interpretation of specific technicalities. She was the one who recommended his viola teacher. She would tell him in heavily accented Russian "Yes, Pavel TOLD you to play it like that. But if you want it to sound the way it was written, you VILL play it like this, (and then would demonstrate). You must play like violist, but THINK like violinist!"</p>

3

<p>Son just finished 9th grade and is thinking of a career in music. His current teacher is very good -- has won intl competitions, was a student of a top person in the field and has connections to people who run top programs. Frankly, I'm not sure the prep program would necessarily be better other than the name. That said, I was thinking I could spin off tympani and marimba, for example-- having 1 teacher teach 1 and the other teach the other. It seems to me ds' current teacher and most percussionists have an expertise on one instrument. </p>

<p>I saw just a bit of what you mean about ego when ds returned from his summer program. They had a grad student teach him and ds' teacher was NOT happy with the new technique. </p>

<p>Ds spent 2 weeks in a summer program and is currently spending a good 8 hours a day playing. He can't get enough of it.</p>

4

<p>There is so much more to prep programs than just the teacher: there are intense theory, history and ear training classes, as well as ensemble experiences. At some of the pre-college programs, students can elect to take only a class or ensemble and a lesson, while some students are enrolled in the full certificate program. Some prep programs require that all students be fully registered for the full Saturday program, and are extremely strict about absences, etc.</p>

<p>Although I had some reservations about my son doing a pre-college program (he was already overextended with musical activities), he found the experience invaluable. He met and played with fabulous players, was mentored by excellent teachers, and got great feedback, which solidified his list of schools at which to audition. I couldn't recommend this kind of experience highly enough, but taking on another full day of "school" is not for everyone. My son was up and out the door by 9 a.m. every Saturday morning, and didn't return until almost 5 p.m.</p>

<p>We were up front when he started though, about keeping his current private teacher (who is well known and doesn't take many students of high school age). They let him register for the minimum of lessons of a half hour in length per semester, just enough to stay registered in the prep school. I worried that the two teachers would be stepping on each other's toes, but they were aware of each other, and worked on different elements. My son gained from the prep school teacher, but that was not the highlight of the program. For him, keeping both teachers worked well, but we were really up front with everyone. His private teacher understood the desire to be in the prep program, and the prep school teacher knew the reputation of the private teacher, and why my son would be reluctant to give him up.</p>

<p>It all worked out. I hope the same is true for your son!</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
There is so much more to prep programs than just the teacher: there are intense theory, history and ear training classes, as well as ensemble experiences.

[/quote]

Allmusic, the nearest program to us is 200+ miles. How to replicate the prep experience locally? We have a major SUNY campus, a community college with active music program, an opera company, and civic musical ensembles. Cornell and Ithaca College are 1 hour away. S (piano) is a rising HS junior spending the summer at Interlochen--how could we put together a pre-conservatory-like experience for him?</p>

6

<p>Great thread. I've also been wondering about more than one teacher. My d will be entering The Mannes School of Music prep. in Sept. They also ask that you not have outside teachers. I plan to keep my daughter's private teacher to help with the music required for HS placement auditions, all state and etc. Do you think this is ok?</p>

7

<p>I'll weigh in...I think high school students should have one primary teacher. Teachers can vary wildly on the way they teach technique, the sound they want, the way they want students to play, etc. To be honest, I think it's confusing for a younger student to have more than one primary teacher. Once students are more advanced, it is not uncommon for them to attend lessons periodically to gain a different perspective but for less experienced students...this would not be good...in my opinion. </p>

<p>Now..re: youth orchestra experiences. I think they are invaluable. If a student has a passion for their instrument, and they want to play in an ensemble, this is a great way to get experience being part of a group. Our kids found that there were two key elements...the conductor, and the quality of the other players...particularly the strings (DS noted that the strings HAD to be good in an orchestra...and if they were the winds and brass tended to be as well). </p>

<p>Clarinetmom...in my experience it would not be beneficial for your daughter to have a different teacher to get her ready for hs placement, all state etc. Is there some reason you don't think the MSM prep teacher wouldn't be able to address these issues? That teacher would be giving your daughter the necessary guidance to better learn the craft of playing her instrument. That is what is needed to do well on those auditions.</p>

<p>The only other "free advice" I'll give here is that if your aspiring HS musician has never taken piano...they might want to consider doing so. Both of my kids said that their piano instruction was very valuable in their understanding and use of theory and learning things like transposition down the road. And DS was told (when we first visited college music programs in 10th grade) by the college programs that piano instruction should be undertaken.</p>

8

<p>A few benefits of prep programs beyond what Allmusic mentioned are exposure to a broader base of peers and talent levels, access to names and faces not always available locally, a higher level of intensity of musicality and student dedication. These are intangibles, but provide in order</p>

<ul>
<li><p>a better means of guaging your student's talent and potential across his contemporaries. Many of these kids will pursue music in college at top programs. It puts you in perspective as to the type of talent out there when it boils down to audition based admit programs. It also gives you additional perspective from informed professionals as to your child's potential for future success.</p></li>
<li><p>the music world is small. It's not unusual for some long lasting mentor/student relationships to form and grow from these programs. Results can vary, but can begin to allow some doors to open a bit more easily... introductions to higher level teachers, peers; valuable insights, potential sources of gigs, instructional opportunities, summer programs, etc. It's the start of beginning to network, getting your kid "out there", broadening a potential support base for the future. Additionally, you'll find a wider source of parents, all in a similar boat, many with great insight and infornation.</p></li>
<li><p>one of the most important steps in this whole process is continued feedback from active performing professionals with the insights and experience to accurately and honestly evaluate and recommend the realities of your kid's chances of "making it" as a professional. Many are led astray by bad info and pipedreams, with little or no basis in actuality. The truth is that the level of talent, dedication, and luck required is beyond what many realize.
It's important to be able to assess potential and chances honestly in deciding on a career path in music. There are many, and it's wise to be able to know options and evaluate realistically to adjust along the way.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>There are more ways than one to skin a cat. We were neophytes, without a clue. We had a great public school program with dedicated teachers that really fostered early development. We had access to three local youth programs, and chose the best. Through that we found exceptional coaching, and a very high peer quality, and recommendations for private teachers and ensemble coaching that brought us to the next level.</p>

<p>We were close to three outstanding prep programs, and honestly never really considered it, as we had a very viable local option. Frankly, it was largely economic coupled with the logistics. But our location enabled us the access to a very good program and some amazing teachers and peer talent. A number of these kids did leave the local for NYC prep programs in hs, yet the early bonds allowed our son to continue to actively play with his core group of peers in gigs, small ensemble and competition work, as well as some high intensity local summer programs. A number of these kids are now performing professionally, as is my son, or pursuing Masters programs within their specialties.</p>

<p>Son's peers from his undergrad conservatory level program came from a variety of backgrounds and musical educational experiences. The one common denominator was that all felt that greater peer talent was a driving factor in their learning to be better musicians. Where they acquired the experience varied greatly.</p>

9

<p>To piggyback on Thumper's comment, I will agree that two teachers may not always be the best route, particularly in classical. </p>

<p>However, jazz teachers tend not to be the "prima donnas" that classical ones are (yes, this is a huge stereotype, for which I apologize, but it has been our experience). I know my son's classical teacher may have had objections if he had wanted to simultaneously study with another teacher, even for only a half hour a week (which was our arrangement at the pre-college program). But his jazz teachers have never had a problem with multiple influences. This might be the nature of the genre, so please take my commentary regarding two teachers with that in mind.</p>

<p>PS For Catbird or others: There were kids who traveled great distances for my son's pre-college program. He played with kids from Maine and CT for example. We also knew two kids who traveled from Boston to Juilliard every Saturday, for THEIR pre-college. People have to be willing to assess the level of sacrifice, both time and money, they are willing to make for these experiences. I don't think I would travel two hours, even for a terrific pre-college program, but again, we know people who did it...every week (these were generally people who lived in areas with weak local music, both in the schools and community). So, it really is a personal decision.</p>

10

<p>Thumper1,
I am just unfamiliar with how the prep programs work. Do the teachers have time to work on pieces needed outsidethe prep programs? I guess I will have to wait and see how it plays out.</p>

11

<p>Clarinetmom...my son's trumpet teacher and my daughter's oboe teacher (both part of the precollege prep program) never worked on orchestral music for the youth symphony. They taught my kids to play their instruments well, increased their classical repertoire of music, and dealt with technique as well as theory. My KIDS were responsible for learning their music for the youth orchestra (and youth wind ensemble...and in the case of DS chamber music groups). That was not the job of the private instrument teacher. However, in our state, pieces for All State auditions, for example, are very classical pieces on the instruments...and ones which teachers typically expect their students to learn at some point in time. My kids typically used the same pieces for seating auditions at school. </p>

<p>Perhaps someone else will weigh in on their prep program experience. But truthfully, the teachers seldom worked on youth orchestra pieces in private lessons. One exception I can think of is when DS (and I think DD too) played solo parts in the youth orchestra...but then again, these were orchestral excerpts that students on their instruments were expected to learn.</p>

12

<p>As a teacher in one of those programs, I always appreciate it when students bring orchestra music to the lesson and ask for help. Maybe you could work something out with the teacher- one lesson out of four per month to be spent on orchestra music...Communication is the key. For me, I actually paid for an extra lesson every so often for my daughter (a violinist) as there is so much for a violin teacher to work on with a student there never seems to be enough time!</p>

13

<p>My son went to a prep program. He was in 3 different ensemble groups (violin) and very rarely worked on ensemble repertoire with his teacher in private lessons even though she directed one of the ensembles. The exception was if he had a solo in her ensemble!</p>

14

<p>My kids didn't attend a prep program, so I can't address that. However, all my kids teachers have always been very good about helping them with audition excerpts and orchestra music. My kids don't just bring music and say, "Teach me this." Often, they won't even mention pieces they are already comfortable with. It is usually some specific question. My D might bring a piece and say, I'm having trouble working out this bowing." Or both might simply mention to the teacher what they're working on, and the teacher might zero in on some typical problem spots.</p>

<p>None of the teachers has ever had such a set program of instruction that there was no room for individual tailoring. In fact, I think the teachers appreciate being involved in my kids' musical lives. It also helps them in their teaching to know what is being asked of the students elsewhere.</p>

15

<p>My sons' teachers would work with them on orchestral excerpts for auditions when asked. It was usually to work on a specific passage that one of them might be having trouble with. Also, occassionally they would ask to hear them run through the excerpts a few weeks before the audition so that they could correct anything that was wrong. However, these sessions were usually minor parts of their lessons. (Instruments involved were cello and viola.)</p>