Need Advice - High School Stopped Ranking With No Warning

Parents Forum
81

If I understand correctly, you can afford to contribute $0, so that the $15,000 net price is out of reach for her to fund with federal direct loans and work earnings, but $7,000 would be within reach for her using federal direct loans and work earnings. Correct?

Note, however, that even the best financial aid schools (HYPS) still have a minimum net price (student contribution) of about $4,000 to $5,000 that they expect students to earn from work even in a maximum-financial-aid situation. Check net price calculators.

Do not rely on promises to “meet full need” without checking net price calculators, since each school may define “need” differently and have a different expected student contribution. Here is an older thread on a net price calculator comparison: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1675058-meet-full-need-schools-can-vary-significantly-in-their-net-prices-p1.html

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I would not be surprised if it is worded that way to allow them to change it to competitive whenever they want to, in case more NMFs list USC than there are scholarships they budget for. I.e. as long as the number of NMFs is lower than the number of scholarships they intend to give, they can award them to all NMFs (i.e. automatic), but they do not want to publicly guarantee that.

83

I sometimes hear people in our district complain about things that were “sprung” on the community, but generally these type of changes are discussed at board meetings for at least a couple months before they vote on it.

Focus on the schools that give guaranteed merit for test scores and GPA. There’s a thread pinned to the top of the financial aid forum. Are there any schools your daughter can commute to from home?

84

“I’m pretty sure she will end up on the East Coast where schools are much more generous.”

OP, just remember to budget the cost of cross-country travel, which really adds up.

85

Sure, it’s broken. The emphasis on class ranking & grade weighting has really created a monster. A number of public university systems (e.g. Texas) admit automatically by class rank. This causes kids to load up on AP courses for the GPA boost, over courses which personally interest them.

The colleges “say” they want genuine kids, but this is not what the present rules of the admissions game promotes. Class rank, grade weighting, & SAT superscoring promotes GPA padding and SAT multiple sitting.

I was a HS student before USNWR rolled out its college ranking. Back then students took the SAT once and few schools weighted grades.

86

My kids went to a high school with no ranking & no weighting, only a few AP
offerings for seniors only (they did have honors classes). My unhooked kid with a 3.7, probably only in the top 15% if they had ranked, got in everyplace she applied. Including UChicago, Swarthmore, Harvey Mudd, Carleton, and several lower ranked schools with very good merit. Two sittings of the SAT with no outside tutoring or prep class. She was NMF. People assume that grinding head to head for grades is necessary, but most of the time it is not.

Texas and CA put an unfortunate emphasis on GPA and class rank. But that is a small part of the country. People make themselves crazy about this, but they don’t need to.

87

California public universities do not use high-school-defined class rank at all, except possibly that CSULB President’s Scholarship. Texas public universities often list GPA as not considered (using class rank exclusively).

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Texas, Yes, California, No. I remember an article in the LA Times several years ago that reported that less than half of California public high schools actually rank students. I’m guessing the number is even lower now.

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Agree that ranking is not used in CA, but GPA is very important, right? So other than Texas, where is ranking king?

90

@novicemom23kids That is insane! GPA takes a hit for music or Latin I but not for study hall?

I was oblivious to all of this when we decided on the school that my daughter attends. It does not rank, does not weight GPA, and does not offer AP courses. I now feel as though I dodged three very large bullets by sheer dumb luck. She takes the most challenging courses available to her plus orchestra and study hall on alternate days and that will have to be good enough.

And guess what? Some graduates of her school have gotten into Stanford, Brown, Cornell, Chicago, Wash U, and the like. Although most go to a mix of second-tier regional public and private universities and LACs.

@fidoprincess Run some NPCs at some of the prestigious east coast schools that promise to meet need. An income of less than the cost of attendance (65-70K) usually gets you within striking distance of a free ride, minus a small federal student loan and a manageable work study job. Assuming she gets in, that is.

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^^correct, on GPA being important to the instate Calif publics. In fact, its much more important than SAT scores for many.

92

Yes, GPA is very important to California public schools, but in a specified recalculated form.

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"Do not rely on promises to “meet full need” without checking net price calculators, since each school may define “need” differently and have a different expected student contribution. "

OP, I cannot emphasize enough about this, and don’t even stop at the NPC. CALL the schools directly and ask EXACTLY how they define need.

You say you don’t want your D to take any loans, but some of those “meets full need” schools will include exactly those guaranteed loans into “need”. They may also include self-help in the form of your D working. Do NOT assume that she will get to go for “free” because she is a top student. I have a friend who thought as you do, and whose student got into a “meets full need” dream school, which includes very large loans and money they do not have.

I also want to echo what @intparent and others are saying. Good students from schools without AP’s or IB or rankings or who purposely pick and choose classes only for the GPA get into good schools with huge merit awards all the time. Kids at my D’s HS, for example. But not for free, except for the very rare full rides. And I can tell you-it’s not the #1 student only who gets those. There just aren’t many of them.

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OP- This may have been said earlier but approximately 1/2 of all applicants to the tippy top colleges come from HS’s that DONT rank their students. so relax.
If you look at the Common Data Sets for the Ivys, S, etc, you will see low % of students reporting rank.
Colleges have their own way of comparing students without relying on arbitrary and some times ridiculous ranking systems that many public HS have in place.

Its time to turn your attention to finding colleges your family can AFFORD.

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OP,
I just want you to know that I did all of the things your daughter did to achieve the #1 rank. Took all AP’s, honors, avoided this and that. My school did not change the system mid stream but they did allow kids in to the school that came from 5 point grading schools that inflated their rank compared to our ours. I had to go to the school board and threaten legal action to have them recalculate their GPA’s based on a 4 point scale. With all of that said we work within the system we each have so good on your daughter for working it, sorry they changed it. I would question the district if the other schools have not changed, that seems strange to me. I did end end up attending UT Austin which uses rank more than any other metric, but I agree with other posters that GPA/rigor and test scores are going to rule the day for most schools. Good luck

96

I know it’s highly fashionable on CC to claim that only a chump takes out loans for college, and OP, you may have good reason to be adverse to loans, but let me give you a fact which gets lost here with the whole “No Loans Ever” crowd, or “only an idiot pays for college” crowd.

Tens of thousands of young people are making loan payments every single month. Faithfully. Never missing a payment, and many of them paying their loans off early.

My nephew- high need, got good need based aid but needed loans as well- paid everything off early. He lived like a grad student after college (even though he wasn’t one), learned to cook so had friends over for chili and beer instead of restaurants and bars, used public transportation (still doesn’t own a car), and lived with roommates. Got a good job, took every raise and basically plowed it back into accelerating his loan payback.

Doesn’t regret a thing.

Another family member- had an employer pay for her grad school (which really helped) so she could advance professionally without having to quit her job in order to get an advanced degree. Lived modestly (once she started grad school didn’t have time for fancy shopping or an expensive social life) and paid her undergrad loans off in record time.

All the blather demonizing loans ignores the fact that for a kid who doesn’t come from an affluent family, sometimes (not always but sometimes) taking out the federal portion of the loans (not the parent plus loans) is the difference between community college and a comprehensive university education. Nothing wrong with community college btw. But an academically talented kid who can’t swing the 5K needed to make Freshman year a reality even after all the merit offers and all the need based offers are in- if that kid is serious about academics, I wouldn’t rule out loans.

I borrowed for grad school (different time, but much higher interest rates) and I tripled my salary after grad school from what I had been earning with my BA. Every time a friend told me she was planning to leave the workforce after having kids that little voice in my head said “you’ve got loans to pay back”. Every time someone at work told me about a fantastic ski weekend or a beach house rental in Aruba and did I want to go, that little voice said, “you’ve got loans to pay back”.

And pay them back I did. And the day I was done, I opened college accounts for the baby and toddler that I had and kept making my “payments”.

Only you and your D can decide the right college experience for her. But if it’s a U which will open the world for her- but with moderate loans which she’ll need to plan for- vs. el cheapo college which has three majors including early childhood ed and other low paying professions, you may decide that it’s worth borrowing. And have a plan to teach her to cook! It is amazing how much kids in their 20s spend on restaurant and takeout food!!! And they don’t know how to brew a pot of coffee- quite an expensive little habit that one.

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Excellent post @blossom. I agree wholeheartedly. Loans are there for a reason, and there is no sin in taking them if it used wisely.

My husband and I also had a lot of combined and consolidated undergraduate and graduate school debt. Yes it was a different time and the interest rates were higher, but the tenacity that can be put into action to pay back loans is the same today as it was twenty years ago. We took a job overseas in a place most would NOT prefer to live, but we had free housing and child care for a new baby at the work site, in addition to having two full time salaries for the first time in our marriage, having been on and off students and usually part-time employees for most of our marriage up until that point. We hunkered down and paid those loans off in 15 months. We cooked our own meals or ate in a very inexpensive restaurant on the housing compound, didn’t go on any vacations or buy jewelry or expensive carpets like the peers around us, but we felt like we broke even when we paid off those loans and with a host of other choices that followed we are still completely debt free. Student loans were necessary for us even with funded graduate programs, we had to live on something, but they were also a temporary burden, as they are intended to be for everyone.

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I can’t find a safety school for her! Sure she can apply to those reach schools but other than the local community college, I am having trouble finding a safety.

I appreciate your post, Blossom, and think that we may well have to at least look at what is a realistic loan amount and include that as part of her safety. I agree there is nothing wrong with community college but she really wants the luxury of a sleep away college so as long as she can pick a safety and understand the implications of what loans will mean in her future, she should really consider it.

One of the things we learned early on was that the Cost of Attendance for son’s school was really, really exaggerated when it came to personal expenses and books. He spends almost no money at all, downloads or borrows books, rarely eats off the meal plan but the little travel allowance eats up any extra in the budget. We really have to sit down and see if DD can be a frugal as DS is and if she is willing to take a risk.

Thanks again for all the good thoughts and stories. I really appreciate reading them and it give me such motivation to really put our efforts into looking at things in a different way and finding solutions.

99

My friend’s son is a candidate for the Stamps Scholarship at the University of Miami. I believe it’s a full ride, or at least close to a full ride. Another good one is the University of Pittsburgh, but you have to apply very early. There are some other schools that give out large merit awards of varying amounts and may be worth applying to: Boston University, Northeastern (our #1 two years ago received a very large scholarship), U of South Carolina, Ohio State, Alabama, SUNY Buffalo, George Washington University (a boy in our school received full tuition, room and board), Lafayette, Lehigh (merit is very competitive at Lehigh but they do have some large awards). I believe Temple also has a very large scholarship (?).

The following schools also have merit but are very competitive: Emory, Vanderbilt, Duke, UNC-CH, UVA (Jefferson Scholars program), Wash U.

I will write more as I think of them. Good luck!

100

I have children of both genders so i gotta say- as sexist as it is, I think girls have a harder time with a bare bones budget than boys do. But let your D own the problem AND the solution. College campuses will vary tremendously in terms of what “stuff” costs beyond tuition, dorm, etc. I know kids on suburban campuses who spend a ton of money- mainly because the surrounding town has some nice stores and restaurants, but not the kind of stuff college kids like to do. So they are always on the go on weekends- and that stuff adds up. Paradoxically, my own kids who all were at urban universities (allegedly more expensive for social life) spent much less. Their campuses had tons of free stuff- poetry slams, performances, exhibits, plays, athletic events, etc. The local cultural organizations always had free tickets available for students- symphony, opening of new wing of the museum, theater festival, etc. So having a social life didn’t mean taking the train or owning a car to go somewhere else to eat in restaurants, visit clubs, etc. And one of my kids discovered “ushering”- three hour gig on a Sunday working as an usher at a commercial theater, but you see the show for free.

Just something to think about. I think rural campuses do a great job of planning lots of interesting things for kids to do (and free).