Need advice on engineering major for good - not great - student

Parents Forum
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<p>My youngest is weighing possible majors, to help with her college search in her upcoming Junior year. She had been considering nursing, but is now also looking at engineering majors.</p>

<p>She has a 3.5-3.6 at a public high school that is ranked among the top 10 in our state, which puts her only in the top 1/2 of her class. Her PSATs as a sophomore were in the 80+ percentile. She particularly likes math and sciences. She knows that she wants to go to a university with 10,000+ students. She has already volunteered a few hundred hours in a hospital, is a member of one club, and since she turned 16 has worked at a fast food restaurant. She's my hero, since she helps care for a severely disabled parent (diagnosed when she was only 10) who is likely to need a nursing home in a year or two.</p>

<p>This is a kid who works really hard for each B or A, and who freezes under academic pressures. She needs to balance the number of academic classes that she takes with easy classes, so that she doesn't get overwhelmed. </p>

<p>Her goals are typical -- to graduate in 4 years with as little debt as possible, and with a degree that will be very marketable and let her earn a good living.</p>

<p>If she pursues engineering at a mid-to-lower ranked public university (where her fundamentals from a great high school and her work ethic may help her to be successful), will that degree be of value in the engineering field? Are there any other fields that she might consider?</p>

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<p>If the school is ABET certified, no problem.</p>

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<p>Like mominva, I don't think it will be any problem. Any engineering degree will be super marketable since there aren't that many with those degrees. </p>

<p>To like math and science is great! Any major with math or sciences usually yeild a lot of money. Have she thought about being an auditor? Or what about a major in finance, accounting, or computer science? These are the most lucrative majors, as I recall from another post, and they are geared towards those with a liking for math or science.</p>

<p>She sounds like a great kid. Don't think she won't get into a good pulbic university because of her GPA. She probably has enough character to get her into a really good university. </p>

<p>GL :)</p>

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<p>Also, encourage her to go study abroad and do internships. Experience is very valued these days. </p>

<p>GL :)</p>

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<p>Is math her strong subject? In engineering, it needs to be, in fact insufficient math background is making some engineering majors change their major. It does not matter for nursing. Overall engineering is much more challenging academically. Nursing seems to need more social skills, be more people oriented. She also can start with one and then switch. Either of the degrees is very marketable.</p>

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<p>The question that's hinted at in your post is "Can my D handle an engineering major?" If she were my D, I'd want to hear from some engineering students about today's engineering education and it's pressures and difficulties. If she can get through the program, she would have a great future. However, my H tells about being in an engineering program at a well known east coast Catholic university and how only about 1/4 of the kids that started with him graduated * with an engineering degree*.</p>

<p>For a student who "freezes under academic pressure" and "works hard for every A or B", I wonder if this is the best option for her. An engineering program is generally fairly fixed in terms of specific classes in specific semesters, and she may not be able to balance harder classes with easier classes.</p>

<p>I would continue to research this course of study, along with other math-science majors for her.</p>

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<p>Did she take honors math and science classes? I'd recommend ongoing review of her math if she's interested in engineering, because weakness there can cause problems. But from what you've said, she could succeed at engineering at the sort of school you've mentioned, and there are plenty of employers for those grads. They tend to be more regional than national employers.</p>

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<p>Engineering is tough. Even (or maybe especially) in public universities. My observation is that public universities do not provide as much support as privates do and there tends to be a sink or swim mentality.</p>

<p>I think that you need to love or strongly like math and science to do well and to put up with the workload and pressure. </p>

<p>Here's a typical fall semester at UMass Amherst:</p>

<p>Introductory Engineering Courses
A number of courses are designed to serve as introductions to engineering: ENGIN 110 to Chemical Engineering, ENGIN 111 to Civil and Environmental Engineering, ENGIN 112 to Electrical and Computer Engineering, and ENGIN 113 to Mechanical and Industrial Engineering. ENGIN 103 is not discipline-specific and provides a more overall introduction to engineering. These courses offer opportunities for students as they make decisions about their course of study and have common goals: 1) to expose students to basic engineering principles and practices; and 2) train students to think analytically. Listed below are typical Fall Semester curriculums:</p>

<p>Chemical Engineering:
ENGIN 110, MATH 131, CHEM 111, ENGLWRIT 112, Social World Elective</p>

<p>Civil and Environmental Engineering:
ENGIN 111, MATH 131, CHEM 111, ENGLWRIT 112, Social World Elective</p>

<p>Electrical and Computer Engineering:
ENGIN 112, MATH 131, PHYSICS 151/153, Social World Elective and either ENGLWRIT 112 or a second Social World Elective</p>

<p>Mechanical Engineering:
ENGIN 113, MATH 131, PHYSICS 151/153, Social World Elective and either ENGLWRIT 112 or a second Social World Elective</p>

<p>Industrial Engineering:
ENGIN 113, MATH 131, CHEM 111, Social World Elective and either ENGLWRIT 112 or a second Social World Elective</p>

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<p>Another thought for the OP. You said her goal is to graduate in 4 years. That's not realistic if your D will be majoring in engineering. Although they advertise themselves as 4-year programs, most engineering programs are effectively 5 years when co-ops/internships are added to the mix, not to mention any interest in research or study abroad.</p>

<p>Co-ops and internships are becoming essential to getting the good jobs leaving undergraduate school. This is especially true for the not so strong students who can prove themselves in the workplace setting. </p>

<p>And if your D is not the strongest student, and if she has issues with pressure, it might be wise to plan on her taking 5 years so that she might be able to lighten her courseload when necessary.</p>

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<p>CNP55--You picked up on my concern...whether she can actually handle the major, even at a lower ranked school especially when I read the list of classes provided by BCEagle91. Thank you, BCEagle91! Thinking about engineering is one thing, but actually looking at the classes is a wake up call.</p>

<p>Math is her strongest subject, but she isn't on the top math track in our high school. For ex., she was recommended for Trig instead of pre-Calc next year despite getting As in the preceding math classes. One of her brothers did the same track and got As in two college Calc classes , so that doesn't trouble me over-much, as long as she considers lower-ranked schools.</p>

<p>MiamiDAP - I'll suggest that she look at yr 1 classes when considering schools to see how many of classes can be usable for different majors in case she has to change her major. </p>

<p>TNGuy08 - Thanks for the additional suggestions. I'll choose my time this weekend to run each of them past her.</p>

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<p>neonzeus, I am a recent Prof Emeritus(I like the sound of that) of engineering, having been on the faculty of a larger university for 30+ years. I believe that there is a high probability that you daughter could find a engineering curriculum extremely challenging. Because she may be considering engineering because it is a marketable degree rather that a love for things "engineering" alarm bells are ringing in my head.</p>

<p>I would allow her to stick her toe in the engineering waters because she will find out in a semester whether or not she will want to pursue this degree program. She should be taking Calc 1, Chem and/or Physics, a non-tech elective and another tech/science course. At some universities this is a course called Fundamentals of Engr, Intro to Engineering or Engr Analysis. This first semester schedule should answer two questions for her-does she like engineering and does she have the academic chops to succeed in engineering. </p>

<p>One last thing to look for-enrollment controls. At some universities all prospective freshmen engineering majors are not allowed to enroll into the College of Eng on admission to the university. They may enroll after freshman year provided they maintained a certain gpa in mandatory courses. Because this is a method to cap the number of sophs in a particular department the min gpa may vary from year to year and be as low as a 2.0. However in popular majors they can be quite high and approach the 3.0+ range. This does not happen often but is does happen.</p>

<p>Good luck to your daughter!!</p>

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<p>DH graduated from state u. in Mech. Eng. The above posters are correct in saying that the math ability required is pretty high. S2 now attends same state u. and knows many who started out in engineering and changed majors due to the difficult course load. There are 3 semesters of Calc. followed by Differential Eqautions, 2 semesters of Chem, 2 semesters of Calc. based Physics and those are the basics before the real engineering courses start.<br>
S1 was a top student in h.s but was really pushed(hard) by the engineering math/sci. at state u. </p>

<p>Engineering is a very intense major. That being said DH has said he considered Industrial Engineering to be a little less intense than the others.
Women in engineering have great job opportunities. </p>

<p>Nursing Sch. ,while not math oriented like engineering, is a pretty tough major in it's own right. I majored in Nursing at a state u. Those who haven't done it have no idea how much is required of nursing majors. Like engineering, Nsg. job opportunities are abundant and pay well.</p>

<p>Whichever she chooses will require a lot of stick-to-itiveness because both are stressful majors. It sounds like she is a hard worker. That will def. help her in these tough majors. Good luck to her in making her choice. Remind her that she can always change if the first thing she tries does not work out or she finds she doesn't really like it.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
she was recommended for Trig instead of pre-Calc next year despite getting As in the preceding math classes

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'd fight this, if she's interested in engineering or any science-based major, including nursing. I really don't understand why the high schools don't want to encourage students, especially A students! At best it shows a lack of imagination on their part, but I suspect the true reasons are less attractive. I sought and received an improved placement for my kid, who subsequently aced the harder class. Encourage her!</p>

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<p>IntheBiz- We have a driver for the 4-yr goal, since her parent will be in a nursing home for 2-3 years before dying. </p>

<p>I've rec'd legal advice that I will be required to spend the kids' 529 savings accounts for the parent's care. I'm trying to get 3 kids through college without loans so that the money we saved for them can be used as planned (a guaranteed tuition account program - if pulled out sooner for nursing home care, the value will be hugely reduced from the value of the accounts if used for tuition). It's going to be a race to get the kids through school and to use their tuition money for its intended purpose. My spouse & I really struggled to save money for tuition each month from birth, and her disabled parent would be heartbroken if those funds were not ultimately used for her education. </p>

<p>I'd also hate for her to have huge student loans after her brothers were able to use their accounts to get through college debt-free. Anyway, that's why the goal is to graduate in 4-years and be able to be self-supporting. I won't have ANY money once I burn through all of our other savings to support my spouse's Nursing home care. Spouse has no life insurance and I don't have many work-years left, so it's not that she can borrow and I can pay it off for her later.</p>

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<p>I'm a big fan of previewing courses before taking them whether this is done by watching videos, reading the textbook or sitting in the class before it is actually taken for credit. There are precalculus course videos at [MA</a> 107 Lectures<a href="NC%20State">/url</a> that might be useful to get a jump on the regular school year.</p>

<p>There are course videos at Berkeley in a variety of subjects at [url=<a href="http://webcast.berkeley.edu/courses.php?semesterid=27%5DUC"&gt;http://webcast.berkeley.edu/courses.php?semesterid=27]UC&lt;/a> Berkeley Webcasts | Video and Podcasts: Spring 2008 Courses](<a href="http://courses.ncsu.edu/ma107/common/media/MA107Lectures.html%5DMA"&gt;http://courses.ncsu.edu/ma107/common/media/MA107Lectures.html) if she'd like to see what university courses are like and the level of material covered.</p>

<p>A lot of state universities have four-year engineering programs but I think that students need to come in with a strong calc and science background to have the best chance of succeeding. That's where APs, community college and online universities courses help. Physics is a common requirement in the freshman year with calculus as a corequisite (it's taken at the same time). A lot of students have trouble with this approach which makes a five-year program more realistic. Even with a calc background, the freshman year can be pretty rough.</p>

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<p>Does your D have any idea on what she would like to do with an engineering degree if she went that route? DS just finished up his second yr in engineering and my guess is he is still pretty clueless as to what he would actually do once he graduates! Good but not great engineering students who also lack a strong interest, passion or focus are probably the ones most likely to switch majors.</p>

<p>Here is a link to a nice website, Sloan Career Cornerstone, which contains lots of info relating to careers in engineering, technology, medicine, math, computer, and science. DS and I discovered this site when we were researching schools a few years ago. He is also a good but not great student, and when we were looking at schools, we debated over whether he should pursue engineering technology instead of engineering (more and more schools are offering 4-yr programs in ET). S knew that he might be better suited to working as a technician but was also interested in chem engineering and there seem to be very few ET programs in chem engineering so he went the engineering route. It has been a tough road for him so far, academically - he has gone from a solid B+ student to a solid C+ student, but he has not yet lost his interest in his field - and he begins a 6-month co-op this month which will provide the hands-on experiences that he has lacked so far). </p>

<p>These are tough choices at this age especially for the typical kids who are still pretty indecisive about their futures at this point. Good luck to your D!!!</p>

<p>The</a> Sloan Career Cornerstone Center</p>

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<p>Lol, BCEAGLE, S1 and DH go/went to NC State. DH did finish his engineering degree in 4 years (back in the 80's) but he did not do any internships or co-op semesters. </p>

<p>In Spring semster of S1's freshman year, he took Chem w/lab, Calc. 2 (went to all office hours for this one) and Physics w/lab along with English and Naval History plus a NROTC lab(18 credit hrs.). It was a challenging semester to say the least.</p>

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<p>OP- my heart breaks for all of you. What a tough situation and how wonderful that you can retain perspective on your kids educational needs with all the other very overwhelming pressures you are facing.</p>

<p>My two cents- kids who are successful in engineering typically have one or two of the "markers" of an engineering kid- participation in robotics, have been taking toasters apart since they were three, obsession with legos or go-carts or how TV's work, etc. You get my drift. In addition to the math/science piece, there is a hands-on component to most engineering programs that also serve as a weed-out factor-- the problem solving skills and intense curiousity about how stuff works is daunting to a kid who isn't really passionate about the field.</p>

<p>Having said that, there is nothing to suggest that your D won't like or be successful in engineering- just that I don't read her profile and think, 'hey, an engineer". You should also be senstive to the reality that a kid who freezes up under a lot of academic pressure is going to find Freshman year a really tough slog- in addition to adjusting to college, being away from home, some ambivalence about leaving an ill parent, etc. There is nothing "coddling" about Freshman year for an engineering major- the courses have to be taken in sequence, they are required, and although there will be support in the form of tutoring, study groups, TA's, review sessions regardless of where she goes- even kids from top science and math schools tend to feel that everyone else has had better preparation. Sometimes it's true, sometimes not, but it is daunting to feel that you were the top math kid at your HS but the student next to you was the top math kid in the state or region.</p>

<p>My only short term suggestion is to push hard for her to start off the year in the top math class. She can move down more readily than she can move up; she'll know by late October if she's truly in over her head; she will be shortchanging her options in more ways than just engineering if she doesn't at least try a more challenging math sequence.</p>

<p>There are many fantastic careers for a kid with solid math prep- even for kids who don't live and breathe it. Finance, Statistics, Actuarial Science, Pharmacy (a good option if she's really into health care but doesn't see herself as a nurse), and a ton of other allied health professions. Solid math skills give her an enormous leg up as a nurse- pharma companies, insurance companies, large hospital systems and HMO's all hire people to do case review, statistical management of outcomes and stuff like that. A friend of mine who went to nursing school because she disliked little kids (her options at the time were teaching or nursing) is now running patient recruitment for clinical trials at a large teaching hospital/Med school. She got the job because of two statistics courses she took as electives way back when, and had been the only girl in her AP calc class back in the dark ages.</p>

<p>My thoughts are with you at this tough time for your family. Your D sounds like a fantastic human being and a great student- you have a lot to be proud of.</p>

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<p>Thank you all (I think I've read Originaloog's advice six times so far since there is so much of value in it). As I read your responses, I really don't see D as an engineering major. If she decided on engineering, I suspect she'd be a C to C+ student. My toasters have always been intact....I'll definitely point her to the site suggested by ScansMom-THANK YOU!</p>

<p>Blossom -- you made some great suggestions for other careers, and some good thoughts about nursing and other possible careers for this kid. I was an English Ed major in undergrad, and the world of math-science is very foreign to me.</p>

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<p>Neonzeus, it sounds like you have a great daughter. </p>

<p>My son finished engineering in 4 years with no debt, but in order to do it he had to load up on AP classes in chemistry, calculus and physics before he even started college, and then forego studying abroad which would have disrupted the scheduled sequence of the classes that he needed to complete the major within the 4 year timeframe. </p>

<p>I would encourage her to take the required science prerequisites and see how she does in them before she makes up her mind on what she wants to study. The basic college chemistry and math classes are adaptable to many other majors like environmental science, or secondary science teaching.</p>