Need Advice- Should I attend Lehigh?

A student who graduated before DS went to Lehigh, found the party atmosphere to be too much for him, was miserable and transferred. A friend of DS with a similar social profile is there now and has found friends who are more “sober” and is happy.

At most schools, particularly smaller ones, it is easier if you fit into the mainstream. But at any school, it is also likely that you will find your tribe, even if it’s a small tribe. The latter may require more work and/or serendipity. YMMV.

I would say, though, that if your son is not feeling enthusiastic, it may make him less motivated to find his people which could easily result in unhappiness.

Let’s focus on facts. Lehigh has a 95% freshman retention rate which is extremely strong. About 33% are members of fraternities (not over 50%). While a generation ago there were 30+ fraternities now there are just 17.

@ClarinetDad16 I want to make sure that no one miss understands me. To be clear am not meaning to imply in any way shape or form that Lehigh is not an exceptional school and that the student population is at all unhappy, or even that there is anything wrong with Greek life or parties within reason. S worked very hard on his application to Lehigh. As well he applied, auditioned for (twice) and has been offered a small music scholarship as a non-music major. He loves the program and the diverse offerings of the school including the fact that he would be able to carry a dual major in CS and Math while still participating in a variety of music opportunities (his three passions).

My intention really was to seek advise and information related to what he should expect his experience to be given the weirdness of his attendance at Lehigh Days and also to seek advise on how to help S turn around the negative impression he came away with yesterday. I don’t believe for a minute that partying and cutting class are the only things the current student body think about. Lehigh obviously could not be so successful if that were the case.

I am disappointed as a parent, again for obvious reasons that S did not have the most positive experience and do believe the Lehigh staff should be aware how a student panel as an example can strongly influence admitted prospects. On the other hand, having lived many “what the heck” moments myself, I really appreciate @Much2learn comment about similarly bizarre and even worse circumstances at D’s Yale visit.

We were able to convince S to go back today for Candidates day today. I’m anxiously waiting to hear back. I don’t think he needs everyone to be in his tribe, he really just needs to see his tribe is there. I know it’s there from my own life experiences, but after all S is just 17 and making the first of many big decisions for himself.

@chel17 - Best of luck to you. I hope you’ll post and let us know what he thought of candidates day. Fwiw, my sibling had a similar experience just a few weeks ago when visiting a smaller LAC in the midwest. A current student told her child not to apply because “this school is out in the middle of nowhere and there’s nothing to do”…makes me wonder sometimes how these “student ambassadors” are selected, lol.

@much2learn - The Yale student was giving your daughter an accurate representation. If one looks at the history of higher education one will find:

  1. At the beginning of the 19th century when the the country was looking to reform higher education to support the growth associated with the industrial revolution, Yale was idealogically opposed to introducing the notion of the "mechanic arts" (i.e. engineering) into higher education based on the argument that it was basically a "trade" and had no place in a "classical liberal arts education". In 1928 (right about the time that RPI - the first engineering school was founded) they issued a famous report that argued that the dead languages should remain the core of a liberal arts education. This was a very influential report that stallled the introduction of engineering at many liberal arts colleges (which included most of the Ivy League and NESCAC).
  2. In the middle of the 19th century, when it became obvious that a technical workforce was needed to support industrial/economic growth, the Land Grant Act was passed creating land grant universities in each state, with a charter to train students in the Mechanic and Agricultural Arts. Yale was awarded land grant funds/status for the state of Connecticut. Cornell and MIT were created at this time as private land grant schools for their respective states, but in most states the land grant schools were public. MIT actually split the charter with UMass Amherst which was an agricultural school at the time. This is why MIT and Cornell have such strong Engineering Programs for private schools- they are in essence "state flagships". Yale is one of only three schools (that I know of) to have their land grant status revoked. The other two are Brown and Dartmouth.
  3. In the 20th century, the engineering story at Yale is equally rocky with halfhearted support from the administration that ultimately resulted in their losing ABET accredidation toward the mid/end of the century. The CS program was also neglected and ultimately reorganized under engineering around 2015 in order to prepare students for the 21st century. The problem being that many schools had started preparing for the 21st century long before the 21st century started, not 15 years afterwards...

Here is Yale’s own account of the post WW2 situation for their alumni (donors), so this is about as positive as it gets.

http://seas.yale.edu/i-am/alumnus/yale-history-blog/post-world-war-ii-era

The heart of the problem is a cultural issue that is shared with some (but not all) of the other Ivy League schools. It cannot be cured just by throwing money at it, because they (and Harvard) have tried that a couple of times in the past only to have it gradually decline.

OMG, I feel sorry for colleges. On top of taking on the responsibility of educating our children they are judged by the actions of our children. And…I wonder how many parents take the time to thank the administrators, professors, staff, advisors, etc. that have gone above and beyond to help our children with their studies and to help and support them grow into responsible adults.

@kikkydee I have to say, I think you are taking the thread in a bizarre direction. I don’t see that anyone has thrown "administrators, professors, staff, advisors, etc"under the bus here. I can’t speak for anyone else, but my posts are intended primarily for the purpose of seeking advise to help guide S in what is a stress filled and tough decision for him. As an aside, and as alluded to earlier in thread, S was actually very impressed with the curriculum, staff, administrators, professors, advisors and found in each case those individuals to be incredibly helpful and a real pleasure to interact with.

If you are referring to my comment “Lehigh staff should be aware how a student panel as an example can strongly influence admitted prospects” I do believe they should be aware. The reality is that there is a strong influence on student prospects based on their interactions and discussions with existing students, especially when those students are part of a sponsored panel during an admitted students event. By the way, this is absolutely no different than corporate America where a job candidate and the employer assess each other for cultural fit including work ethic, style, focus…etc during both formal interview and other informal interactions.

@syralum and others.

S did in fact return on candidates day and had a completely different and very positive experience. Whether it was just a fluke from the prior day, or a difference in the focus of the engineering school students, he feels much better related to his concerns about a possible extreme focus on partying. He is now left with his two top choices. Lehigh and one other. I have no idea how he will lean at the end, but May 1 can’t come soon enough for me at least.

Check to see if Lehigh offers “substance free” or “healthy living” floors, or at least “quiet” floors. If he likes the college and its offerings, it’d be a good compromise to ensure he’s not in a party environment.
That being said, Lehigh is known for its enthusaistic/wild parties and many students choose it for that reason; since upperclass students live off campus in houses they rent, the college has no control over those parties or what takes place there.

Lehigh has a number of “themed” housing options. One of them is “CHOICE” housing, which is substance-free. It’s available to both freshmen and upperclassmen.

Lehigh requires all students to live in campus housing as freshmen and sophomores. After that, the availability of campus housing is limited; most upperclassmen move off-campus, which is easy because the adjacent neighborhoods of South Bethlehem basically consist entirely of affordable housing (old row houses).

That’s true. It’s not like a liberal arts college, where basically everybody lives in college housing for four years. In that case, the college can set the rules as landlord, including a rule that campus security can drop in at any time if violations are suspected. Lehigh simply doesn’t have enough college housing to do that; they have always had lots of students living off-campus, because of the ready supply of inexpensive options. But if a student of legal drinking age is spotted moving a keg into a private house that he legally rents, neither campus security nor Bethlehem police are in a position to object.

The flip side here is that non-partiers also have the freedom to rent their own off-campus houses and set their own rules. I expect a lot of the more sober students start out in CHOICE housing and eventually move off-campus with other like-minded classmates. In other words, there are probably informal CHOICE houses for upperclassmen off-campus (I’ll bet the landlords are happy to rent to them too).

@chel17 i was responding to your criticism of a student in a class:

“Apparently however, also during the admitted student day today, S attended a CS class and sat next to an existing student who was focused on the fact that she has CUT so many classes to date that she is only a short step from disciplinary action. It really seems odd to me that Lehigh staff, would allow such a bleak picture to be painted of their student population during such an important day. I really don’t believe that the entire student body is just focused on parties and cutting class,”

It just bothers me when people pick on “existing students” and “Lehigh staff”’ I would be curious how you would recommend Lehigh to control the actions of the entire student body when prospective students visit. And then, of course, another parent will accuse Lehigh for telling the students not to be themselves… Yes, that complaint has been made in past years too.

I found this quote of yours really interesting:

“By the way, this is absolutely no different than corporate America where a job candidate and the employer assess each other for cultural fit including work ethic, style, focus…etc during both formal interview and other informal interactions.”

Here’s a great article from today’s New York Times - The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews. It relates to your comment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/08/opinion/sunday/the-utter-uselessness-of-job-interviews.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share&_r=0

@kikkydee I think we need to end this portion of the thread. For the record and as I have made it clear, I have no intent to pick on existing Lehigh students or staff. If you disagree, then we will have to shake hands and agree to disagree.

I’ve got to confess, every time that wonderful Princeton Review factoid resurfaces, I scratch my head in amazement. I believe their methodology is centered on polling existing students at each school. So Lehigh students must be describing the party scene there as pretty intense. My only question is: compared to what? What or how do Lehigh students know what’s going on at other campuses? Are they on the road every other weekend doing research? This whole Princeton Review thing just doesn’t hold water. And Princeton Review is what…formulated by Princeton University or by former Princeton grads? I don’t think so. It’s just wonderful branding/marketing scheme that deserves to be included among case studies as a really creative business model.

When I got involved in this thread, I included the fact that my eldest daughter is a proud Lehigh 2013 graduate (with honors: BA Psychology, Business minor, Asian studies minor) and my son is a third year IBE student. Their experiences have been nothing short of transformational (…and admittedly, that includes bending back a few beers over ALL four years!)

What I did not disclose is that my wife and I also have two girls now at the tail end of their freshman years, one at Bates College and the other at Middlebury. (#goinbroke!) On the surface, these two liberal arts colleges are quite different from Lehigh. Middlebury has 2,450 students, Bates is around 1,900. And neither of them have fraternities or sororities. By contrast, Lehigh is a medium-size university made up of four colleges with 5,080 undergraduates enrolled. That said, they have more in common than you might think and I’m referring to shared language…and anyone who has college age kids knows this one…”pre-gaming.” And this is the point I’ve probably taken too long to get to: college students – not all, but let’s agree on a good many – imbibe. And with the drinking age still stubbornly set at 21, most of it has been driven off-campus, and that’s a fact all colleges are trying to get their arms around.

So to the accepted students at Lehigh, I will close with the following appeal: please don’t let a Princeton Review party school ranking color your ultimate decision. The truth is the student body runs the gamut. I have it from very reliable sources that applications to Lehigh this year were higher than last and offers for acceptance into the class of 2021 is down to 24 percent. So the interest in attending Lehigh seems to be expanding while the entrance door size is shrinking. Does this describe a University made up of students just looking to party? The most likely answer: no more than at most other schools. As Donald Trump might be tempted to say, “Whatever the failing Princeton Review has to say…fake news. #sad!”

Seriously, I have to wonder about this too. I mean, here in California we get news stories like the following (from last weekend):

http://ktla.com/2017/04/10/42-arrested-14-injured-at-annual-deltopia-spring-break-party-in-isla-vista/

Or at another California school from 2015:

http://www.ksby.com/story/28291091/roof-collapses-at-early-morning-party-near-cal-poly-sending-nine-to-hospital

I’m just not convinced that Lehigh is a truly competitive player by California party standards. In fact, I suspect that a big college party in California can easily draw more people than Lehigh’s entire enrollment. If anyone in California is picking Lehigh instead of a school like UCSB or Cal Poly because of the “higher rated” party scene, I think they’re going to be seriously disappointed.

@ lehighdad

Many schools (I don’t know if Lehigh is specifically one of them - but do know that some of its peers schools are included) conduct their own surveys on the prevalence of alcohol and drugs on campus. Sometimes the surveys are part of the school’s alcohol education program, so the response rate is fairly high and results are often shared with other schools to gauge how the schools compare (think the survey is fairly uniform across schools) I have no idea if Princeton Review has access to the school data, but the point is that this type of info is knowable. Schools in more isolated locations and schools where there a few older students/married students/vets - tend to have higher incidences of drinking.

Lehigh being a bit bigger than your typical LAC may benefit in that there are more students amongst who to find your own tribe, then at a school with a smaller population. So the OP should keep that in mind.

@chel17 How did your son find the 2nd day?

@wisteria100

Posted earlier, but to summarize again. S actually had a great second day. His “tribe” for sure was present, so allayed most of his concerns from the prior day visit.

Related to the whole party discussion. Absolutely agree, parties are a thing in college and California schools are among the best at them. Heck I remember during my days in college, we used to dress the keg up in football gear and that was on campus. Our D2 went to a school that had a big Greek life presence and while she did not join formally, she was often seen at a particular Frat house’s events and sometimes dressed in a “toga”. She now is highly successful at a high profile start up in Silicon Valley.

S is really just his own person here and for now at least his group of close friends aren’t in to the big party scene. He does have some friends however that choose differently and he is OK with that. He is kind of an old soul that way and is pretty contemplative about everything. He and his friends idea of a really good time is working through impossible math proofs or believe it or not they meet up occasionally for Board game days. I actually believe a little bit of party would do him some good.

Lehigh is such a really great school and I couldn’t be happier to have S have the opportunity to attend. Thanks to everyone for giving the great advice and counsel.

Here is Princeton Review’s stated methodology for party school ranking:

https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings/ranking-methodology

"Schools by Type
Party Schools

Stone-Cold Sober Schools
Both lists are based on students’ answers to survey questions concerning: the use of alcohol and drugs at their school, the number of hours they study each day outside of class time and the popularity of fraternities/sororities at their school.

Schools on the “Party Schools” list are those at which surveyed students’ answers indicated a combination of low personal daily study hours (outside of class), high usages of alcohol and drugs on campus and high popularity on campus for frats/sororities.

Schools on the “Stone-Cold Sober Schools” list are those at which surveyed students’ answers indicated a combination of high personal daily study hours (outside of class), low usages of alcohol and drugs on campus and low popularity on campus for frats/sororities."

@Lehighdad and @wisteria100 you are so spot on. So a small school like Lehigh that has approximately 40 percent of their student body involved with greek life is compared with a large college like UCSB that has only 12 percent of their students involved with greek life. So of course their greek life would not rank very high in popularity. So they would be way lower on the party scale created by Princeton’s methodology.

In addition. not all greek programs are the same. Lehigh has unusually high expectations for their greek students. Their greek life program has won many awards and is a leader of excellence within the higher education community.

@kikkydee - UCSB has consistently been in the top 10 of the Princeton Review’s party school ranking. This year they are #11 but they were #2 a couple of years ago. There are other large schools in the top 10 with similar greek percentages, Syracuse (Go Orange, my alma mater) as well as UIUC, UW Madison, University of Iowa, etc. So your theory falls apart there.

Fwiw, I agree with you, Lehigh has high expectations for it’s Greek community. I can’t think of another school that publicly holds those organizations accountable and penalizes them, again publicly, when they fall short. But make no mistake, the Administration is highly concerned about the amount of alcohol consumption, in particular by the freshmen and sophomore greek students. Just as concerning, is how other students respond when someone they know is highly incapacitated. President Simon sent a letter just 4 days ago, to every student and every parent of students at the school and posted it on the Lehigh Parent facebook page as well - because of the number of severe alcohol poisoning incidents, some with injuries that have happened within the past couple months.

I thought it was pretty gutsy of him to send that letter, which by the way was signed by himself and a dozen of his top admnisrators, VPs, Chief Counsel, Athletic director, etc. just when prospective freshmen are making their admissions decisions and just at the start of admitted student days on campus and across the country. I imagine the folks representing Lehigh at those events had to answer some tough questions, especially from parents.

And I say all this as the parent of a Lehigh senior D who is involved in Greek life and graduating in six weeks.

Wiggly52:

Hope you attended and got your “vibe” questions answered at Diversity Life Weekend. Let us know! You sound like an excellent student to me. Lehigh would be lucky to have you.

Chel17:

Has your son made connections with any of Lehigh’s musical groups? In my time at Lehigh, 45 years ago, the Marching 97 and other musical ensembles were generally a bunch of funsters who also did pretty darn well academically. If I had had any musical talent, I’d have been a member of that “tribe”. Alas, I did not have any whatsoever.

In my view, Lehigh’s partying is probably similar to most other similar colleges. In my time, it was intense freshman year (legal age the was 18, fortunately) and then began to taper down as the novelty wore off and we started to realize our post college futures were looming ever larger and faster. Perhaps that has changed.

As others have noted, I am encouraged by what I perceive to be the administration’s insistence on high standards for Greeks and penalties for unsafe, stupid behavior. I hope that perception is real.

@SyrAlum - Thank you for sharing the information about the letter. I have always been impressed with Lehigh’s administration’s proactive approach to safety.