Need advice with daughter

Parents Forum
1

<p>My daughter isa jr. young for her grade, won't be 17 till October. I can not get her interested in this whole college process/choosing schools, even just a narrowing it down to a fleeting idea of what she might like to study. I am getting to the point that it is causing friction between us, which was never an issue before. She is a pretty decent student, 94 uwa average, has 4 AP classes this year, took one last year. Is in a Science Research in the high schools program, will graduate with 12 college science credits. Is/will be entering 2 research projects in the Siemans Westinghouse Competition in the fall. Okay EC's, spent a summer at Northeastern with a professor working on her project her sophmore into junior summer.
Now, as far as choosing a school, she just does not care, either that or she is doing this to drive me nuts, though her friends are not motivated to do this either, so it might be a peer issue, or she is just not ready for this. She took January SAT's got 1900, without doing any studying for it. I have been trying to get her to just even open the book to perhaps "maybe" increase her score, she says yes, but never does it. </p>

<p>So my question is, with how fast this whole thing comes down on you between now and the fall, I just find myself going from being so angry with her lack of interest, to acting like it is her life, and she has to step up to the plate and take an active role versus a passive one. </p>

<p>We went to look at a few schools, thinking that would spark interest, no didn't work.
I have spoken to her about reasons to pick a certain school, (as I made dumb choices at her age, but I did not have parents involved to guide me) so trying to keep her from making the same mistakes I made. </p>

<p>Now I am thinking it might be a maturity issue, and staying at home(which she is flipping over, and saying no way) and go locally to give her that bit of time to mature. I can not see paying tons of money if she doesn't even have an interest in doing this at all. Any advice on how to approach this, leave her alone, do it for her, or nag her to death. I have gone as far as threatening not to sign her up for the SAT's/ACT/Subject SAT's, just use the one score and let the chips fall where they may(didn't seem to bother her either) Ugghh!</p>

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<p>From what you've written, it seems that she is not yet ready for or interested in college. You will drive yourself and her nuts if you try to force college on her before she's ready. Should you succeed in getting her into college under such conditions, she'll more than likely flunk out or drop out no matter how bright and capable she is.</p>

<p>So, my advice is to set ground rules about college: What you're willing to pay; how far away you'd let her go to college, and let your D know any other guidelines that you think are important.</p>

<p>Do take her to see some colleges, and also let her know about some other post high school options: working a job; participating in Americorps as a fulltime volunteer; doing structured travel, study or volunteer work. I don't suggest that you sign her up for SATs, get college apps for her, etc. </p>

<p>I do suggest that you let her know your rules about her living at home after high school. Mine are that kids can live at home after high school and be fulltime students or fulltime volunteers earning no money (which means they wouldn't pay rent) or they can be working and paying a reasonable rent. Just lounging around the house playing games and figuring out what they want to do with their lives wouldn't be acceptable.</p>

<p>Offspring living at home also would be expected to follow the house rules and do regular chores as does the rest of the household.</p>

<p>High school graduates who wish to spend some time traveling would be expected to earn the $ to pay for that travel, not just stick out their hands and expect me to pay.</p>

<p>Writing all of this from the perspective of the mom of 2 very bright males, both of whom acted like your D. I structured my older S so he got into the college of his choice -- with substantial merit aid. Then, he promptly flunked out because he was too immature for college, something I hadn't realized. He then moved about 2,000 more miles away and is continuing to act in an immature manner.</p>

<p>Having learned from that experience, I did not structure my younger S, who managed to miss the deadlines for all of the colleges that interested him. As is the case with your D, he had said that he wanted to live away from home after h.s., but he ended up applying for and obtaining a fulltime volunteer position with Americorps in our city. After checking out rental costs, he decided to spend this year living at home (and paying rent).</p>

<p>He finally got around to applying to college earlier this year -- colleges that he picked out himself and applied to using his own money (My H and I set that guideline after S's grades declined drastically second semester of senior year). S has been accepted to his first choice college, one that is outside of our area. If he doesn't get the merit aid that he needs to attend there, he plans to go to college locally (where he'd have a scholarship covering his tuition) and use his Americorps earnings to live in an apartment. </p>

<p>He has matured a great deal during this gap year. He has a much better idea of what his talents are and what he may want to do as a career, and he also knows much better what he wants out of his college experience. He's also more focused.</p>

<p>What I'm enjoying is that he is taking responsibility for his college experience. I think that this isn't something that happens when one structures things so that indifferent students manage to get into a college. I think this kind of motivation has to come from within, and what parents can do for those who aren't yet there is to structure their lives so that they get a chance to grow up and mature while also seeing the reality of what the world is like for those without college educations.</p>

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<p>Thank you for your insightful answer. I always trust the been there done that response. It brings it all out as to what the consequences would be if I did force it on her. It even helped me decide that she has to get a job over the summer versus a summer program thing her Math teacher suggested she go to. I think her 1st grade teacher pegged her way back, she said she was bright, but she could envision her sitting under a tree in Central Park sketching. Thank you for your response, I appreciate it.</p>

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<p>Another thought is to limit times when you talk about college. Do what NSM said, and then be silent. Tell your D that you will talk about college, SATs, etc, on Sunday afternoons, or when driving to and from school, or something, and then not discuss it...save the thoughts for that time...that is fair....</p>

<p>WHen we talk about the same thing over and over, (my mom calls it looping) our kids just tune us out, so if we say, yeah, we do need to figure this stuff out, but we can set aside times to do that, so its not all the time</p>

<p>My Ds are both interested in the college hunt, but even so, I would buy the college ranking books with advice and just leave them around. </p>

<p>Your Ds motivation may kick in when she doesn't feel the pressure of school, and mom (not to say mom is wrong, just how kids percieve it), it may kick in when it does with her friends, it may not kick in for a year</p>

<p>When your friends are "eh" about something, you often are as well</p>

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<p>If I've read your post correctly, your D won't be 17 until after the start of her senior year in HS. From what you write, it sounds like she doesn't have any drive to get ready for college, is completely apathetic in fact. I see your D trying her best to ignore the approaching headlights of college, as if she pretends it isn't coming then somehow it will go away or take care of itself.Could it be that she's just not ready to move on?</p>

<p>Is it possible she could spend an extra year in HS, or a gap year before college? Since your D won't even be 18 before she graduates HS, perhaps there is a way she is eligible to spend an extra year there before college?</p>

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<p>I respectfully disagree with Northstarmom. I guess a more accurate way of phrasing it is I think it's too early to tell that your D's experience will be the same as that of either of her sons. </p>

<p>Kids grow up. A kid who is too immature for college now may not be when the time actually comes. So, I'd take a "wait and see" attitude. To many juniors, college is still a long way off in the future--further than they feel comfortable planning. </p>

<p>I certainly wouldn't pressure her to retake the SATs now. If she finishes some AP courses that have SAT II subject matter tests, that's a different story. Just say she should take them while the material is still fresh in her mind. But as for the SAT, let it slide. If she's more interested next fall, she can retake it then. Not ideal, perhaps...but better than having her take the test again now if she really isn't going to study for it. She might do worse. </p>

<p>I don't follow the leap that she has to work this summer rather than go to some summer program because she doesn't want to talk about colleges. If for some reason, you feel it's important that she work, say so. I'm not telling you how to raise your D. I just don't think you should make it sound to her as it does in this thread : "I think you want to go to a summer program and I'm going to punish you for not being pro-active enough in the college search by forcing you to work instead." I think THAT approach is BOUND to backfire. </p>

<p>My advice...talk as little about college as possible for the time being. Wait until at least mid-summer before laying down any rules about what will happen if she doesn't go to college. (There are NO colleges that have deadlines that early anyway.) Decide whether she can take the summer program without linking it to how much/little she's done to investigate colleges or whether you think she's ready for college.</p>

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<p>Yes, apathetic would be the word, but that is how she is about everything, thats why this infuriates me. One would say easy going, another would say no motivation. Yes, she wont be 18 till October first semester of college. Don't think it is not moving on , really doesn't have a "love" of the high school scene. What I don't get is she absoulutely gushed about the time she was at Northeastern, had a really good experience playing grown up, now it is totally not there. If a gap year is in the cards, I don't think she is eligible to stay, and no way would she even consider that.</p>

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<p>Jonri,</p>

<p>Thanks for backfire part. I understand it sounded as if it was a punishment, didn't mean for it to sound as such. It was the teachers suggestion, D gave me the forms, saying "Mrs.... said I should do this program", not, "Mom, I really want to do this can I?" If she is just going thru the motions, I don't think she is going to gain anything from it, unless it is something that she has a desire to do.</p>

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<p>One thing that helped get my kids motivated to look, was when they went together with a friend for college visits. If you can take someone along with similar interests and go for a long weekend, it might help. Once they get started, things do progress.</p>

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<p>Just to clarify, I am saying that from how the OP described her D, it seems that her D right now is not motivated for college. I don't know whether the D will be ready for college by the time she graduates from high school, but I do think that the D won't become motivated by the parent's structuring the D's life to force her to apply to college and to gain acceptance at the best college the D is capable of getting into.</p>

<p>My thoughts are that the parent should let the D know whatever the parents' parameters are about colleges that the D could attend (i.e. cost, location, etc.) ; and the parent also should let the D know what her options will be if she chooses not to go to college right after h.s.</p>

<p>Just as it's helpful for parents to take kids to visit a variety of colleges -- just to let kids know the range of colleges that exist -- it also can be helpful for parents to let kids know about jobs, volunteer work and travel options that could be good gap years.</p>

<p>RIght now, it seems that the OP is making her D's college plans the OP's problem. For some teens, having a parent take such a strong stance causes the teens to become passive or passive-aggressive in response. If the parent backs off, that can help the teen take more responsibility for their own future instead of getting into a battle of wills with their parent.</p>

<p>The D also is young, and despite her saying she wants to go to college away from home in 2008, may not feel ready for that big step. Also, many juniors don't get involved in the college application process until mid fall of senior year because college seems such a long way off.</p>

<p>My older S had skipped a year, and graduated h.s. a few months after turning at 17. He loved being in college -- all for the wrong reasons, though. Our kid who had never had any interest in partying before became a big party animal. Apparently that was how he felt he could fit in with his new friends (whom he met through an academically-related EC that he was unusually good at), most of whom were several years older than he. S also looked older than his age, and, I think, was happy that the older students were so accepting of him.</p>

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<p>CBK, my son didn't begin to even look at colleges until August right before his Senior year. I wanted him to look before - he was planning on going abroad for a month during the summer, told me he wanted to wait until he got back... I said fine... that was it. </p>

<p>He ended up applying to 9 colleges and being accepted to 8. </p>

<p>Your daughter sounds like she has a log going for her:
* 94 uwa average
* 4 AP classes this year, took one last year.
* Science Research in the high schools program,
* will graduate with 12 college science credits.
* Is/will be entering 2 research projects in the Siemans Westinghouse Competition in the fall.
* summer at Northeastern with a professor</p>

<p>To me that is a very impressive list of accomplishments -- your daughter will easily be admitted to many excellent colleges as long as she is not aiming for the super-competitive (like Ivies). With her easy-going attitude, she probably isn't a good fit for those schools in any case. She would probably be more comfortable in a less competitive environment, among students who are interested in learning but not consumed by ambition. </p>

<p>I'd strongly suggest that you buy the book "College that Change Lives" by Loren Pope... skim through it, then leave it somewhere in your daughter's bedroom. It lists a lot of excellent colleges which might be a much better fit for your daughter's personality. Also, buy the Princeton Review 361 Best Colleges. Leave that in your daughter's bedroom too. </p>

<p>Then back off. She'll browse through the books when she's ready. Most of the colleges in the CTCL book would love to have a kid like your daughter -- many are excellent colleges, but they aren't so super-competitive that your daughter needs to stress out over admissions. </p>

<p>The SAT's could be higher -- but if your daughter doesn't seem motivated to study for them, ask her if she would like to take the ACTs. My d was reluctant to talk about tests, so I just went to the ACT & SAT web sites, got a list of upcoming dates, sent my d. an email and asked her to pick whatever dates she wanted and let me know -- then I signed her up for the ones she picked. </p>

<p>Honestly, with the qualifications you listed, I don't know what you are complaining about -- it sounds like you have a highly motivated d. who just might not be ready to start thinking about colleges just yet. There's plenty of time. Most college deadlines are between Dec. 15-Jan 15. (But check the deadline for your in-state public -- in Calif. it is Nov. 30th for the UC system). </p>

<p>My d. didn't narrow down her college list until fall of her senior year either -- she was more interested in learning about colleges, but most of the apps actually went out pretty close to the deadlines; she threw in one extra safety at the last minute. And she is very proactive, likes to plan things in advance. </p>

<p>But I think its pretty normal that kids just don't feel ready to think about college until they are beginning their senior year. It sounds to me like you are putting pressure on your daughter way before she feels ready, and she is simply resisting your pressure. So back off --don't make threats. She doesn't have to be ready or mature enough for college now. Believe me, there is a tremendous amount of growth that occurs between ages 16 and 17, and between 17 and 18. Give it time.</p>

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<p>I want to second jonri's and calmom's take on the situation. I often remark to my husband how different things are now with my son's (hs jr) classmates all seemingly abuzz with thoughts about where they might want to apply to college compared to my daughter's (college jr) classmates at the same time. As I recall, my daughter was one of the only ones among her friends to begin looking at colleges spring of their jr. year. More typical was one of her friends, whose parents (our friends) were wringing their hands as late as October of senior year wondering what it would take to get their daughter enthused about the college selection and application process. Said daughter found her enthusiasm in time to come up with an appropriate list of schools and to make all the application deadlines (not early ones), and is now thriving as a junior at an excellent LAC.</p>

<p>While I think NSM's advice is astute, I don't think it is likely to apply to your daughter. Having experience with a child whose attitude about many things would be kindly described as "apathetic", I understand your frustration with your daughter's behavior. However, I think the passage of time may be all you need to address this situation, and that you might find that the "problem" vanishes once the reality of having to act to meet deadlines sets in.</p>

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<p>Your daughter seems to accomplish so much. Research could also frustrating at times. Could it be possible she is burn out and need to slow down a bit? I wonder whether a nice vacation will help? I think there are some group tours for high school students to Europe or Asia may be suitable. Give her some opportunities to be with her peers and she may realize how special she is and become motivated. I think nagging is counter-productive.</p>

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<p>CBK: Lots of good advice on here, clearly you are not alone. </p>

<p>I've dragged my kids through the college process, but what else are you going to do? Try to stay calm, insist on some deadlines, and be sure to get her started this summer on college essays (trust me - that will be the hardest thing) and her resume. If she won't pick out schools feel free to pick them out yourself (oh, I will get flamed for that) and arrange for visits. (Don't plan on doing a million.) </p>

<p>Really try hard to put in perspective the relative importance of this to her - it's not high on her list and it's very possible it never will be.</p>

<p>Lots of people will suggest a gap year - but these kids aren't likely to line up anything too great for that either. So unless you think a year working at McDonalds and hanging around the house will do her some good, I'd keep moving (ever so gently) forward.</p>

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<p>I'm all for concrete actions. Some good ideas already mentioned, like visiting friends at college, campus visits. Maybe visit a college fair. Or even hire a consultant, so your D can hear some things from someone other than a parent.</p>

<p>Perhaps you could find a safety school with a really simple application - something in state. (There are many, but you don't often find them mentioned here.) Then, if all else fails, and she refuses to do any more applications in the fall, come April she will at least have one option. Or, if she gets the feeling that that one school isn't good enough, it might light a fire in her to find some others. (This is a variation on getting my H to help me pick baby names. Picked one I'd be happy with, that he didn't like, and announced that's going to be it unless he came up with something better! ;) )</p>

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<p>My d has the same birthdate issue as your D (turned 17 in the fall of senior year). She also didn't care much about college. During junior year, we talked about the classes and teachers she liked (small classes, lots of interesting discussion & debate, no lectures). I knew that she hated rural areas, and wanted urban or suburban. I knew that she had no idea what she wanted to study. And I knew she wanted a place where she could continue her primary EC (dance). </p>

<p>Armed with all that, I did the initial research and came up with a list of potential schools. She didn't want to look at them in too much detail. I then insisted on a road trip to visit. 2 schools in 2 days, then a break with something fun and no college talk, then another 2 schools, etc. She finally was able to see herself in college.</p>

<p>As far as the SATs are concerned, I knew (and she agreed) that she would never study for them on her own, so I hired a tutor - given her schedule, a class wouldn't have worked. She took the SAT once, the ACT once, and 4 SAT IIs.</p>

<p>By the time fall of senior year rolled around, she was ready to tackle the apps. It also helped that all her friends were in the same position as she - everyone dealing with the same pressures/excitements together. She asked me to fill out the basic data on-line and she started the essays and supplements. I read the essays only when she wanted help cutting them down to the requisite number of words. We set an arbitrary deadline of having things done by Thanksgiving, so that December & winter break would be stress-free. She got everything sent off by early December.</p>

<p>She now has her responses coming in and she's getting excited, except nervous about having to make a decision.</p>

<p>I think part of her issue wasn't so much her age as it was that she was simply trying to survive Junior year - very stressful, and any more stress that I put on her was too much! She complained when I started to talk to her about the schools I had found, but really appreciated it.</p>

<p>This worked for me - I'm not saying it will for you; maybe a gap year would work for your D. All I'm saying is that it's still too early to write her off.</p>

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<p>Based on my experience of knowing the teens at my daughter's high school, your daughter is perfectly normal. Really, you described the quintessential teenager. Yes, there are many high-powered, motivated teens who start pursuing college sophomore year -- but there are just as many if not more who don't start thinking about college until fall of senior year. There was a meeting last Nov. with guidance at my daughter's school, and many seniors had just started the process. Now, I'm not saying that's ideal, or a good thing -- but it's the reality.</p>

<p>I would buy the books and make sure she knows where they are. I would make sure that she takes the SAT IIs that complement the APs she's taking. I might have a conversation with her guidance counselor. This summer, I would plan to take either day trips to look at nearby schools, or visit colleges on the way to or from a vacation. She should definitely take the SATs in October; if you are lucky you will be able to convince her to do some studying over the summer.</p>

<p>It is quite possible that come Nov. of senior year, your daughter will start to realize that she messed up and should have started looking sooner. You could say "I told you so," but she'll already be kicking herself and perhaps learned a lesson. </p>

<p>It is possible that your daughter will need a year off to mature, like NSM's kids. But that's not something you need to decide now. </p>

<p>Someone mentioned a consultant. A friend of mine did that for her daughter, who tends to be lazy and procrastinate. She has money to burn, and decided that for the sake of the mother-daughter relationship she wanted someone else to nag her daughter about college.</p>

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<p>Chedva has a good point in her statement, "by the time fall of senior year rolled around..." There is a long journey between spring of junior year and that May 1 deadline of senior year (when college decisions must be made). Many kids manage to rally in that time frame, but I think there are some kids who wish they had put in a little more effort when that deadline comes up, and they think their friends are heading off to better schools etc. Another reason I advocate moving forward.</p>

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<p>My son was also 1900 on SATs, seem completely unmotivated to improve them, then took the ACT. He got 31 on his first try (2040 SAT equiv), retook it and got 33 (2190 equiv). </p>

<p>A structured year off might be a great option. I had to interview a man whose firm specializes in advising students and their family's on gap year possbilities and college advising beyond that. This is his firm's website: <a href="http://www.timeoutassociates.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.timeoutassociates.com/&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

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<p>For the most part, by this age, most kids have always just gone to the school Mom and Dad told them too. Now, they are being asked to prepare and test and chose and visit and decide because their future is at stake!</p>

<p>I once had an interesting conversation with my very bright older D when the college planning was a bit overwhelming.
D: Mom, do I have to go to college?
M: No, honey, not if you don't want to.
D: Then will I have to move out.
M: Of course not.
D: Will I have to get a job?
M: Absolutely, a full-time job.</p>

<p>Soon after, the college prospects seemed more attractive.</p>

<p>I was one of those excited parents. I wished I had had the options and opportunities available to my children. Every school was attractive to me and I often gushed to my kids. I learned to tame it down a bit. I found these boards BUT I wanted my kids to get excited too...so, when a school seemed a good fit for the student of the search, I had brochures sent to them in the mail. And toward the end of Junior year, the guidance folk did their thing, and then the visits could be planned!</p>