<p>I need some advice about the math class that my soon to be freshman should take next year. He took Algebra I this year and passed the test to skip over it in high school and take geometry. My concern is that his middle school program might not have given him a strong enough background to move on. When I suggested this idea to his teacher. (probably not a good idea) I received a horrified look and was told that he wouldn't be able to take calculus if he didn't start freshman year with geometry. </p>
<p>I don’t know what your school system is like, but in ours the content of Algebra I was not very exciting. If (a) he passed the test to skip Algebra I, and (b) the school thinks he should skip Algebra I, and (c) skipping Algebra I is what students have to do to take calculus in high school . . . then for heaven’s sake let him skip Algebra I.</p>
<p>Why would a parent even get involved in something like this?</p>
<p>A lot of geometry classes and textbooks these days include an ongoing algebra review, so he should keep getting some algebra all year. I’d be inclined to go ahead and let him take geometry if that’s what he tested for, unless you’ve noticed he doesn’t have a good enough grasp of it, or he isn’t confident in math.</p>
<p>I can guess how he’ll feel about this idea, but he could take algebra somewhere over the summer, or you could find a text and homeschool it some over the summer. Sometimes a little one-on-one does wonders.</p>
<p>And here’s a little personal background. My oldest took Algebra 1 in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade. I actually became aware in 8th grade that he really didn’t have the basics in algebra down, even though he got good grades in Algebra 1 (how you can get an A and not know the basics is beyond me, but that’s a whole other subject!). When he went into 9th grade, we actually put him back 2 years into Algebra 1, where he had a good teacher and excelled. His school allows kids to double up on algebra 2 and geometry, so he got back on track to have calculus his senior year. It worked out well for him, but if his school didn’t have that kind of flexibility, I’m not sure I would have held him back two years - I would have been more inclined to get him some tutoring in the summer and stay on track.</p>
<p>I think it’s a completely legitimate concern. I’ve seen plenty of kids who have been rushed through math, then hit a wall later on because they never had a chance to absorb the earlier material.</p>
<p>That being said, if he passed the high school test he should be fine, and the teacher is correct that he won’t be able to take calc in hs if he doesn’t take geom as a freshman. How does he feel about it?</p>
<p>"That being said, if he passed the high school test he should be fine, and the teacher is correct that he won’t be able to take calc in hs if he doesn’t take geom as a freshman. How does he feel about it? "</p>
<p>If he’s a fairly normal not-yet-Freshman his response is probably “huh?”.</p>
<p>Why are you questioning his performance on the test? If he thinks he can do it then let him. Colleges really want entering freshmen to already have calc.</p>
<p>JHS: “Why would a parent even get involved in something like this?”</p>
<p>Because sometimes students really do fall through the cracks, and it’s a lot less painful if somebody (in this case the parent) is paying enough attention to get things back on track. While our school system claims to be the best in the state, my experience has been that there are some fabulous teachers and there are some really un-fabulous ones. As I said, my kid got an A and really couldn’t do algebra, and I’m really glad we paid enough attention to notice instead of moving on and not doing well. </p>
<p>And I have to ask - why do you sound so judgmental in your reply? Sometimes teachers are bad at teaching and pass kids so that they don’t have to explain why so many students didn’t master the material. Some school administrations are overwhelmed or like to keep “meddling parents” at arms length. Sometime 14-year-olds don’t have the perspective or assertiveness to say “Hey, wait a minute, I didn’t really get algebra this year - are you sure I’m ready to move on?”</p>
<p>That’s why a parent would get involved in something like this</p>
<p>A less-than-stellar Alg I class will be enough to get through Geometry. Where it may cause difficulties is in Alg II. Enough Alg II teachers see this these days that they wind up spending a lot of time reviewing Alg I. We experienced this with S2 freshman year when he hit the wall in a pre-IB Alg II w/functions class that expected he’d had a decent Alg I class. It was a tough year, but he got through and took AP Calc AB as a junior.</p>
<p>We heard this complaint about Alg I from highly respected math teachers at two different selective admit programs in our school system. There is such pressure to get middle schoolers through Alg I these days that in the process, Alg I has been watered down, and the Alg II teachers are left to clean up the mess later in HS. They assured us that our S was far from the only student who hit this particular wall, and it wasn’t because he was a poor math student.</p>
<p>Here’s how my S has progressed. Caveat: My H is a math professor.</p>
<p>Summer before 7th grade: H taught S Algebra I over the summer.
7th grade: S passed test for Algebra I and went into Geometry. A/A.
8th grade: S and three others from MS took Honors Algebra II at HS. A/A.
9th grade: S took honors Trig/Math Analaysis. A/A.
10th grade: S took AP Calc BC. A/A/5.
11th grade: S took an online course in Linear Algebra. A/A.
12th grade: S will take an online course in Multivariable Calculus.</p>
<p>Note S did not take AP Statistics although it was available. On advice and consensus among AP Calc teacher, my H and my S, it was determined that he could handle the rigor of advanced math courses and could likely pick up a “better version” of stats in college if he felt it was needed. </p>
<p>Since S is likely to be a science or engineering major, this has been a good path for him. Plus, completion of Linear Algebra helped him land a summer research internship with another USC prog, doing climate modeling (think global warming) using Matlab.</p>
<p>I’m with those who say that if he passed the test, put him in Geometry. </p>
<p>For the right kids, it’s nice to have Calc before leaving high school, and if this is the only way to do it, it seems to me worth any risk that he may have some trouble later with Algebra II. That’s probably something you can manage easily enough with tutoring if necessary. </p>
<p>For what it’s worth, we’re in the same boat with our younger son (including the concern about his middle school class), and that’s the call we’re making.</p>
<p>Pinot: The case you describe is very different from the OP’s case, although in the end I think you took a big risk, too. You KNEW your kid hadn’t gotten algebra. All the OP seems to know is that his or her kid passed the test for placement into Geometry in 9th grade, and that “maybe” his middle school program hadn’t given him a strong enough background. I would think that the high school and middle school teachers ought to have a pretty good idea of whether the middle school kids can handle geometry in 9th grade, especially if they are part of the same school district. It’s not exactly an uncommon situation. And the more common it is, the more risk the parents would run that by making a child re-take Algebra I, he would be in a class with unmotivated math students and low expectations, so there would be no assurance he could ever catch up.</p>
<p>As for what you did . . . great, kudos to you. But what if your kid had gotten a crumby teacher for Algebra I in 9th grade? (It happens.) He might have been bored to tears, and STILL not gotten algebra.</p>
<p>In my experience, middle school algebra classes are generally BETTER than their high school equivalent because students who have trouble with math don’t take algebra until high school. Thus, the middle school teacher is working with a better-prepared class than the high school teacher. This means that the middle school teacher can spend more time actually teaching Algebra I, rather than trying to help make up for students’ deficient preparation.</p>
<p>With that said, though, if there is a problem with your son’s Algebra I background, it will probably become evident during Algebra II, rather than Geometry. If, at that time, he feels that he is not really understanding the material or if his grades suggest that he is struggling, working on a one-to-one basis with a tutor might be a good idea.</p>
<p>OP, you said he passed the Alg. I end of course exam but didn’t say if his score was a good one or more marginal. That might be an indicator of what he should do next.</p>
<p>When S1 started m.s our system became determined to put kids on a faster track for math. S1 took Alg.1 in seventh grade and Geom. in eighth made A’s on the exams. He went thru the h.s math w/ no prob. taking AP calc. jr. year and AP stats sr. year.
Quite a few of the kids who started on this accelerrated track hit the wall soph year with pre-cal. They were left with two math reqs to go for graduation and not much choice.</p>
<p>I heard several h.s math teachers complain that the m.s. version was not up to par and a lot of kids just weren’t ready for it.</p>
<p>S2 took Alg 1 in eighth gr. He started out OK but grades got worse throughout the year even with a tutor. He too passed the Alg. 1 exam but with a score in the 70’s.
I knew he needed to repeat Alg. 1. He repeated Alg 1 in the first semester of freshman yr. (made an A on the end of course exam this time) and then took honors Geom. in the spring of freshman year so he was all caught up. I will admit S2 is not a math guy and never had an intention of taking calc. but knew he would be required to take 4 math classes in high sch.</p>
<p>I think that spending an entire year retaking all of Algebra I, on the speculation that his background “might” not be enough to move on, could be a mistake. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t be concerned about calculus three years from now. I’d be concerned about wasting the bulk of next year. I’d also think about the social and psychological implications of S being “held back” to repeat a class. </p>
<p>I also think that JHS makes a very good point about the quality of Algebra I in high school, when the best students have already taken it in 8th grade.</p>
<p>How sure are you that S needs more Algebra? </p>
<p>Without really solid reasons to do otherwise, I’d be inclined to defer to the teachers and to the results of the test.</p>
<p>Also, consider the route of peer tutoring if a brush up on some algebra skills is needed. My S alternatively picks up community service credits, some pocket change or just some smiles from his close friends/sports teammates when he tutors math. Win-win all around.</p>
<p>Try to get hold of the HS Algebra and Geometry teachers, and ask them, OFF THE RECORD how they feel about your son’s preparation. They know how well students coming from Teacher X’s Algebra 1 class and from Teacher Y’s Algebra 1 class normally do when they get to HS. If you have your kid’s exam score, and grades in hand (even better if you have some of the quizzes and tests on hand) for this discussion, the HS math teachers should be able to advise you.</p>
<p>My D was also on the fence regarding this. Ultimately she took geometry, and then the teacher provided some algebra review prior to her taking algebra 2 in tenth. It seems to have worked fine.</p>
<p>My D tested into Algebra I in 8th grade. She had mostly B’s for marking period grades and passed the final by a few points to enable her to take honors geometry in 9th grade. She took geometry, but had a lot of difficulty with it. It seemed her algebra I preparation was not sufficient. We enrolled her in an algebra I summer school course after 9th grade and that helped her tremendously. She went on to take Algebra II (non-honors track), pre-calc, and AP stat. Not taking calc. didn’t hurt her in her college admissions and she took calc in her first semester of college.</p>
<p>Other kids in our HS have taken Algebra I in 9th grade and then doubled up with Geometry and Algebra II in 10th grade, did precalc in 11th and calc. in 12th.</p>
<p>My S1 (now a college soph) didn’t take Calc in HS, although he did take AP Econ and AP Bio along with other APs. I mention this because it didn’t appear to hurt his admissions in highly select colleges, and he got merit scholarships to 4 private universities as well. However, he is not majoring in a math or science track.</p>
<p>I now wonder, was this a risky move? For those kids planning to major in humanities or the arts, would Calc still be required? I have a S2 and am interested in more anecdotal stories.</p>
<p>madbean: My d had to repeat algebra II because her previous course was not rigorous enough and is now taking precalc over the summer to make up the time so that she can take calc as a senior. She is a humanities kid. This schedule was recommended by her headmaster as she told us that it is very important for her to take calculus to be competitive for the colleges she is interested in.</p>