Need help choosing LACs, my list is way too big.

College Search & Selection
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<p>ericatbucknell, I’m not sure that what you and I are saying is mutually inconsistent. It may be a matter of defining what we mean by “lean pretty heavily to the left” vs. “moderate”, taking into account a generational difference of perspective. By leaning heavily to the left, I’m thinking Trotskyists, GreenPeaceniks, Earth Firsters and serious GLBT activists. Are there many of those at Bucknell? Or are you talking, basically, about people who voted for Obama and self-identify as liberal?</p>

<p>Anyway, I don’t want to distract from what would be most helpful to the OP. If you are a current student at Bucknell, you might be one of the best people to help understand the differences in culture (if there are any significant differences) among some of these schools. The “different feels” if you can characterize them. Do you have friends at other Pennsylvania LACs that have not been mentioned such as Dickinson or Gettysburg? Thoughts?</p>

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<p>Okay, well after these clarifications I’d say that the OP doesn’t want what most people I know think of as an “intellectual” school. She just wants a school with reasonably smart and reasonably serious students. If you think Bates is “too off beat,” you probably won’t be interested in Carleton, Grinnell, Oberlin, or Macalester. Either than or you have an strange idea of what Bates is like.</p>

<p>Do you have a particular interest in Catholic schools?</p>

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<p>Consolation, I probably do have a wrong idea of Bates is like, but from what I’ve read it seems like it’s more like Reed than Carleton or Grinnell.
I don’t care if a school is Catholic or not, I’m christian so either way it’s fine
and what is the difference between intellectual schools and schools with smart/serious people?</p>

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<p>I would drop the really small colleges, Hamilton and St. Lawrence. (Or was that supposed to be Lawrence U in WI?)</p>

<p>I would drop Lehigh, URochester, and either Bucknell or Colgate. Okay, I’d drop Bucknell just because I have a soft spot for Colgate. </p>

<p>Then I give you one out-of-the-box suggestion: the Residential College program (within the College of Letters, Science and Arts) at the University of Michigan. Designed as a LAC experience (average class size 20), with self-selected quirky intellectual types who want a close-knit learning community and residential college experience on the campus of a major university. Best of both worlds, if it suits you. </p>

<p>[The</a> RC - University of Michigan Residential College](<a href=“Residential College | U-M LSA”>http://www.rc.lsa.umich.edu/)</p>

<p>Apply early and I think you’re stats are good enough to get you admitted out of state. The program is language intensive, has art and music requirements, small size classes and is housed in one of the best dorms in the most desired location on campus. You want a traditional college experience? It’s hard to beat the home game Saturday during football season. And Ann Arbor is the quintessential American college town. A bit spread out, but the campus architecture is stunning and with so much going on, you could not possibly get bored over a four-year stay. Check it out.</p>

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<p>jazzymom, thank you, that’s an interesting suggestion. I was going to apply to UMich in October after I get my ToEFl scores, but now I’ll probably apply to this program</p>

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<p>You are welcome. It’s an excellent option for what you’re looking for. </p>

<p>Important for UM: Apply early, as in well before Nov. 1, which is the early response deadline. Personally, I happen to be paranoid about recommendations and transcripts getting misplaced, so I advise applying now-ish, or early/mid October to make sure that everything that can go astray gets found and turned in by the early deadline, Nov. 1. </p>

<p>Happy college hunting. There are many wonderful options out there.</p>

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<p>jazzymom, don’t you think the Michigan program would be just about as selective as Colgate for OOS? The OP was nervous about her chances at Colgate.

Reed, Carleton and Grinnell are all small, selective LACs that I think of as rather similar to each other (and of these 3 plus Bates, I’d pick Bates as the outlier). They are “intellectual” in the sense that they not only attract smart students, but also relatively many students who wind up in academia (as college professors) or in RDT&E (as well as law & medicine). For some of the LACs we’re talking about, here are the “research” component rankings by Washington Monthly magazine:</p>

<h1>5 Carleton</h1>

<h1>10 Reed</h1>

<h1>13 Oberlin</h1>

<h1>15 Macalester</h1>

<h1>16 Grinnell</h1>

<p>…</p>

<h1>30 Bates</h1>

<h1>31 Bucknell</h1>

<h1>39 Hamilton</h1>

<h1>43 Colgate</h1>

<h1>54 Connecticut</h1>

<p>Among both LACs and universities, the ones that educate the 10 highest percentages of graduates who go on to earn Ph.D.s include include Reed, Carleton, Oberlin, and Grinnell. Bates, Bucknell, etc. do not show up in the top 10 for any of the fields ranked at the following link: [REED</a> COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]REED”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College)</p>

<p>I think Reed, Grinnell, Carleton, Oberlin and Macalester will tend to attract kids who care about their own political identity (left/right) and about political issues. My impression is that these kids typically don’t care so much about intercollegiate sports (though there may be a more or less high level of participation in intramural sports at some of them). My understanding is that Greek life is understated or non-existent at all 4.</p>

<p>These are generalizations; students at most colleges cover a range of types. Best to go visit a few.</p>

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<p>I don’t think so. Not at all. Bates is only off-beat in comparison to the other Maine schools, both of which are very preppy. Bates is probably more earnest than Carleton, which prides itself on being a little quirky, and on being the most selective LAC in the midwest. </p>

<p>I think that tk’s description is a good one. Look at it another way: at an “intellectual” school, you are less likely to find people who are looking for vocational majors. The person who wants a degree in “business” or “marketing” or “physical therapy” isn’t going to look at those schools. Engineering is another matter. There are certainly intellectual schools with engineering (Swarthmore and MIT, for example).</p>

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<p>I think the OP would have a good shot at the RC at UM if she gets her app in EARLY and pays attention to the essays. Her personal profile offers the kind of diversity any college would like to have, particularly a program like RC. I have the impression that the demand for spots in RC is not as high as it is in LSA in general or for engineering. </p>

<p>Still, I wouldn’t treat it as though it were a safety.</p>

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<p>No, I never said I was nervous about my chances at Colgate, I said that about Middlebury and Kenyon but that’s different</p>

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<p>"what is the difference between intellectual schools and schools with smart/serious people? "</p>

<p>Ah, the million-dollar question! Suppose some of the folks are right that the “intellectual” schools are more likely to produce professors than the schools whose students have equivalent grades and SATs but who are not “intellectual.” It seems that they assume that a school that produces a lot of future professors is better than one which doesn’t produce as many profs. But think about it…most fields have what might be “academics” (the intellectuals), and what might be called “practitioners.”</p>

<p>Intellectuals…Practitioners</p>

<p>Political Science profs…politicians
English profs…novelists and poets
Theater profs…actors, directors, playwrights
Botany/agriculture profs…farmers
Psych profs…psychologists/psychiatrists
Physiology profs…medical doctors, physical therapists, massage therapists
History profs…polititians, soldiers, explorers
Economics profs…investors
Business profs…bankers, business leaders, advertising professionals, etc.
Music profs…musicians, songwriters, singers
Physics and engineering profs…astronauts, bridge builders, computer builders, etc.</p>

<p>In other words, the “intellectuals” are often spectators, sitting on the sidelines watching history–made by NON intellectuals–unfold in front of them. Then they write books about them, teach courses on them, and act like they themselves are the big story. If practitioners are wrong, their bridge will collapse, their patient will die, or their political party will crumble. Intellectuals have the good fortune of dealing in ideas, so even if all the Communist governments in the world are collapsing or failing, they can sit confidently in their book-lined offices and tell gullible freshmen that the right implementation simply has’t been tried.</p>

<p>You need to know what goes into getting a PhD and becoming a tenured faculty member…you need to become obsessed with your field, and believe that your field has some insight to the truth that’s more direct than other fields. So you forsake the study of other fields, even if they might give you insight into your own field. You pick a school of thought early in the process, and spend the rest of your life defending it in spite of all confilicting evidence. You kiss butt and refrain from making waves that might **** off those making your tenure decision. The philosopher Wittgenstein was one of the few intellectuals who was concerned enough with the truth that in mid-career he did a 180 and adopted a new perspective. He is damn near unique in this capacity, which should tell you something about how un-devoted intellectuals are to the truth.</p>

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<p>“It seems that they assume that a school that produces a lot of future professors is better than one which doesn’t produce as many profs.”</p>

<p>It may seem that way to you, but “better” is not the right word; “appropriate” is closer. Students drawn toward research (and academia) tend to seek out the intellectual schools. A minority of PhDs become profs (there aren’t that many positions out there!). Most go into research and development; biotech and high tech are especially popular currently, absorbing many disciplines. The researchers figure out the basics, and the engineers come along and build the stuff.</p>

<p>We need the profs to teach us, but don’t forget about the R&D PhDs!</p>

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I did not mean to put words in your mouth, AnastasiaZ. I must have been thinking of your post #17 where you mentioned Carleton (not Colgate).

I for one am not claiming that a school that produces more future Ph.D.s per capita is necessarily better or worse than one that produces fewer. This is just one indicator, not necessarily the best one for identifying the best school for the OP. The point was to add some numbers and analysis to the discussion to help her differentiate schools on her list, so she can choose (as vossron suggests) the more appropriate ones for herself. It may well be that a relative Ph.D.-producer is not what she wants.</p>

<p>Students entering schools cited above for Ph.D.productivity (Carleton, Oberlin, Grinnell, Reed) happen to have somewhat higher average 75th% M&CR SAT scores than students entering Bucknell, Colgate and Connecticut (1460-1490 vs. 1400-1430 respectively, according to stateuniversity.com). I don’t know about grades (the Common Data Set information is incomplete). On the other hand, Colgate and Bucknell are at the top of the payscale.com rankings for salary potential among liberal arts college graduates.
[Top</a> Liberal Arts Colleges By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-liberal-arts-colleges.asp]Top”>Best Liberal Arts Colleges | Payscale)</p>

<p>For many good American students, campus “culture” is important. Distinctions are sometimes made in terms of the emphasis on Greek life, interest in intercollegiate sports, pre-professional vs. academic focus, liberal-moderate-conservative politics, etc. These distinctions are squishy; there can be a lot of overlap at many schools. You may not even care about them, in which case you may wish to emphasize other factors (urban/rural location, weather, size, etc.)</p>