Need help with college list, several limitations

College Search & Selection
21

To emphasize, if he was running out of time on the ACT, he should try the SAT. Some kids score remarkably higher on one test vs the other, just due to individual differences like speed.

The same 8 free SAT practice tests are available on both Khan Academy and College Board websites. I strongly suggest significant practice before taking an official test, especially since he won’t have a lot of time for a retake before early applications are due in the fall. Practice should include going over every single problem wrong on a practice test and understanding why the selected answer was wrong and why the right answer was correct. I would stress to him the tremendous importance of test scores for his college financing, either via scholarships or via competitive schools that offer good financial aid.

Note that colleges post on their websites the test score ranges for their most recently enrolled classes and these can help gauge fit and likelihood of admission. The middle 50 percentiles for ND are 32-34 and for Vandy, 32-35.

22

I would consider looking at Wabash College in Indiana. They are one of the 100% need met universities that aren’t as selective. I believe your son would automatically qualify for a $24,000 off of tuition for merit. The school is considered a strong value as far as liberal arts colleges go with a great alumni network. The one thing is that the school is a men’s college so it may not be a great fit if your son has a problem with that.

23

One thing to keep in mind since it came up, while I’m a big fan of community colleges it can be hard to get 100% of need-based financial aid met when you transfer because the funds have been committed to the students already at the 4-year schools. I think there’s a push among selective colleges to change that so it’s not impossible, but worth keeping in mind.

24

First of all, your son’s ACT scores are not “very low” when compared to all high school students. A 24 puts him in the 74th percentile of all test takers. I agree that a 24 will make it a challenge to get accepted at a meets full need school.

Another school that you may want to look at (although it may not fit his majors) is Earlham. They have a Bonner Scholar program that provides extra funding for low income students.

A scholarship program that would be extremely helpful is the Hagan Foundation Scholarship (https://haganscholarships.org/). It is available to students in rural counties only, (less than 50,000 population) and is a renewable scholarship that provides up to $6,000 per semester. It is only available to kids that work, and it provides some other unique benefits. Definitely take a look at it.

25

Be careful here. If applying as an engineering major means facing more competitive frosh admissions, changing into an engineering major after enrolling as a non-engineering major is likely to require another competitive admission process. The same thing can be applicable to nursing.

One other thing to consider is that engineering majors and nursing tend to have highly structured curricula that do not have much in common, even during the first year. So the student typically needs to commit to one or the other from the beginning.

26

They are “very low” for Vandy and ND (which is what I meant when I used that phrase). But they really are low for any meets need school at this point. I think Vandy and ND should just be taken off the table. Even if he brings his scores up somewhat, it is unlikely that they will be in range for those schools.

27

@AlmostThere2018 When I mentioned Community College, I meant it solely as I said with (some select) courses being a substitute for high school classes senior year - not starting there and then transferring. It’s called DE and many places allow/encourage it when they don’t offer high level (AP or similar) classes themselves. I don’t know if the OP’s school allows it. They’d have to check. It does NOT affect any freshman status or aid. Many upper level colleges don’t count the credit. Most mid level and state schools will, but it still doesn’t affect freshman status or aid.

@dadof2d I don’t think anyone has said a 24 is overly low as you took it. It’s a very respectable score that many of the students I work with would love having.

That said, it is very low for a future engineer, esp at the schools that are likely to produce the most need based aid. It also doesn’t match the lad’s GPA and rank compared to other applicants he’s going to be in competition with for these places. If the 24 score is due to testing issues, then a test optional school is a good option. If the 24 is due to his school having a low foundational bar academically, the lad is not likely to do well even if he gains admission to these highly competitive programs alongside students who already know so much more. I’ve seen too many students head off thinking they are top snuff (because they are at our school) and then getting overwhelmed when they see what other kids know. They end up thinking they are dumb. They aren’t. They just don’t have the same basics going in. A few can overcome it with a LOT more time put into studying and catching up. Most (sadly) end up just assuming they aren’t good enough - and this is not at high level schools because they don’t get accepted there.

It takes a very good foundational math base to succeed at engineering - at any school.

If I can catch a student ahead of time, I can fill them in and they can prepare themselves in a similar manner to how I’ve suggested on here if they have the motivation. We’ve had top notch kids come from our school. Invariably they have put the extra work in themselves (one even telling me she taught herself the entire content of the SATII Math test) or they’ve had parents who have guided them - or both.

Some schools prepare kids well. Ours has outright said (telling us as parents) that their goal is to prepare kids for local needs and “Around here kids work at _____, go to community college, lower level state schools, or join the military.” We do a terrific job for that. If one wants more, they need guidance on how to get there. Some teachers with experience help provide that, but the student needs to do a bit themselves.

We had a terrific college counselor come in from one of those Teach for America types of programs (not that one, but similar). He came in thinking he was merely going to be doing college guidance and SAT prep, etc. He very quickly found out he needed to teach math, not test prep, and even our top students had no clue what it took to get into higher level colleges (not meaning ECs, etc, because our rural area can overcome that - merely meaning academic preparation). I told him, “Welcome to my world.” He and I talked a bit, but when his two years were up, our school didn’t keep him. He didn’t fit into the budget. They tried fundraising, but even the community wouldn’t support it. We’ve had a couple of others on their two year stints since then, but… there’s still a lot of directional help needed.

My school is statistically average academically. Several are lower on the bell curve. The OP will have to determine what they can do in their situation, but trying to up his score to fit his other stats would help tremendously both for acceptances and for the basic academic knowledge that tends to come with higher scores.

28

@ucbalumnus abolutely - that’s why I said to look at each school as an individual case. But what I’m hearing here is a vague “consideration” of engineering, for a student who could well end up with a generous full-ride aid package if he plays his cards right, but could also end up struggling mightily to finance his education. Tanking his chances at an otherwise-great school over a major he may well not even stay in - that’s not a choice to be made lightly. Many, many students say “maybe engineering”, and the majority of them don’t end up with an engineering degree - and that is totally fine. This student has no experience yet, of what studying engineering in college is like, beyond liking high school math and science, at a school that doesn’t offer calculus or AP sciences. I don’t doubt that he’s capable, but statistically speaking, adcoms are likely to see this trajectory as one that is less likely than others to lead to an engineering degree. The ideal case is that he can get a generous aid package at a school that leaves all his options wide open, but the likelihood is something at least a slightly short of the ideal case.

Of course there’s no problem with his applying to a major like nursing at St. Olaf, where his acceptance to the school does not hinge on his acceptance to the major. (And there is a secondary path into the major once there.) I just think it’s important to weigh carefully, “how important is this major really” when one’s chances at the school in general do ride on the major one applies to. Applying to engineering will mean being scrutinized relative to a pool of applicants with very strong scores, rigorous AP STEM coursework, and more. I’m not saying not to go for it; I’m just saying to weigh the application strategy pragmatically at each school. Perhaps apply to engineering at some but not all.

29

I agree with @ucbalumnus about not going in as an engineering major and transferring later. Engineering majors usually start right in with general engineering courses and start taking whatever math they need freshman year. Transferring in later typically means a 5th year of college.Much easier to transfer out of engineering than into it.

30

Applying for nursing as a male will give him a leg up, imo, he will add diversity.

31

I understand completely the concern about him not being prepared as well as some of the others would be for college. Much the same thing happened to me, though not at a top ranked school. I graduated from this same high school in 1991 and went to a regional private college, which wasn’t highly selective but I was invited into a program which was made up of admitted freshman with high scores, near the top of their class, or both. I was used to being at the top of the class and was really disheartened that I seemed to be near the bottom in my classes, plus I had never really learned to study since I had never really struggled in my classes. I had some great teachers in high school, but hadn’t had nearly the exposure that many of my college classmates did and I was completely unprepared for it.

My son has a better understanding of the fact that just because he is one of the smartest at his school doesn’t mean that he will be as well prepared as those from other schools. I have tried to encourage him while also making sure that he is grounded in reality. Having been a first generation college student myself, as well as having been in high school before the internet and it’s wealth of available information, hopefully he will be better prepared than I was.

32

I hope things work out for your S. Seems like you have discussed with your son the issue of being a big fish/small pond going to a big pond with many smart fish. He will do OK. You are a good parent.

As an engineer, I will reiterate that the first two years are cut throat. No idea cut throat. The school is trying to decrease the number of eng majors. You need to take advantage of all opportunities: friends, professors: TA’s. etc. Your S will work his butt off. Really work his butt off and feel stupid, really stupid. And in addition, he may not have time to work. Now money is an issue.

I reiterate the nursing major. Look at Regis in Weston MA, it offers good money to young men. And it is a good program. I know to many kids who think they want eng to find out they cannot cut it.

33

At this point he really doesn’t know what he wants to do, those are just things he has mentioned. When he was younger he always said he wanted to be a heart doctor, but after he got older and realized how many years that takes he had second thoughts about that. A cousin of mine that is a retired petroleum engineer was encouraging him to consider something in that field and it sounded like something he might like, but I know that he would have a lot of work to do in math since he will only be taking pre-calculus senior year(highest math offered at our school). He also mentioned agriculture at one point since he has been working on a farm for the past couple of years as well as being very involved in FFA, but I think that thought has passed. I think that not being around a wide variety of professions he really doesn’t know what all is out there or what they involve, just the familiar things he has heard about.

I will say that my nephew graduated from the same high school and earned his degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Alabama. He did really struggle in calculus 2 but one weekend when he was home he called his old math teacher from high school(she was mine as well) and after her helping him for a while one afternoon he was able to grasp it and move on.

My son is a lot more outgoing than me which I think will help him, whereas I would never ask for help hopefully he will seek help when needed instead of just floundering along.

34

Your son should take an ACT course, but if there isn’t one near you or you can’t afford it, do the Khan Academy one online, or buy some practice books, flashcards, tests at a bookstore (or online). I suspect your son knows the material but doesn’t know how to take the test. Practicing really helps. It’s boring, it takes time, but every additional point will help him get more in merit aid.

35

Deliberate weeding depends on the school. It is most common at midwestern flagships like Purdue, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Penn State, but also in some other places like Virginia Tech and Texas A&M, where pre-engineering students face a high GPA cutoff or competitive admission to their majors later. But many schools do not practice deliberate weeding, requiring just a 2.0 GPA and/or C grades to continue as an engineering major.

However, engineering curricula are rigorous, so that less selective schools tend to have relatively high attrition rates because many of the students find the course work to be too difficult.

36

It took over an hour thanks to our horrible internet service but he is registered for the August SAT. Next step, test prep. Thanks for all of the suggestions for schools and programs, we will start looking into them.

37

i agree with doing test-prep and re-taking his standardized tests; however, if he still doesn’t reach the score he wants and/or needs, follow through with the test-optional schools. some test-optional schools include bowdoin, bates, wesleyan, pitzer, franklin and marshall, skidmore, connecticut college, and trinity. i believe bowdoin is the only school on the list that is both need-blind and meets 100% of demonstrated need. the others are not need-blind, but they do meet full need.

(note: i did not include schools like dickinson, wake forest, whitman, muhlenberg, or hobart and william smith because i’m not familiar with their financial aid policies.)

38

@HeartofDixie I think you’re doing a great job of helping your lad. I suspect he will do well wherever he ends up if he inherited even an ounce of his mama’s (or papa’s?) grit.

At our school kids have to shadow at least one person doing a job they think they would like. Many students find they either like or dislike that job from the shadowing - or get other ideas from the helpful folks. Can your guy take a few days this summer and do something similar? It might help him decide where he wants to focus on.

Otherwise, many students either don’t know or think they know, but change their minds in college. That’s incredibly common. I tell students to find a place to start, but then keep their eyes and minds open once there. There’s only so much they’ve “seen” in their young lives and college opens up so much more.

Are you able to get Kahn Academy via the net? If not, see if your local library has better internet. Since we live rural (limited data plan), my lads are quite familiar with our local library when they want/need to watch videos, etc. It works well.

39

@HeartofDixie Take a look at Berea College in KY. It offers free tuition for low income students in exchange for working a campus job 10-15 hours per week. Room, board, and fees are about 7K per year, which could be met with the federal student loan/summer job/Pell. No engineering, but it does offer nursing. It is well-ranked for both nursing and as a school (#68 among national liberal arts colleges per USNWR)

Your child would fit its admissions requirements but getting a better test score would be beneficial to his chances. I agree with others - have him try a practice SAT under timed conditions and see how it compares to his ACT.

https://www.berea.edu/admissions/academic-requirements/
https://www.berea.edu/admissions/tuition-promise/
https://www.berea.edu/nur/

40

He probably should to some test-optional schools. Especially, if he can write a killer-essay and he has extracurriculars and service that show he is well-rounded but particularly engaged with any special interests he has in a way that incorporates his academic interests, as well. (Also: Is he likely to get good? great? or extraordinary? recommendation letters…)

And what was his aggregate score (“Superscore”). Does he have any AP scores or an SAT or SAT subject test (“SAT 2”) scores? I think Notre Dame requires them in addition to the ACT. (They did last I looked, but I didn’t have anyone apply there this year, so that was at least two years ago.)

Some schools will take one of those other scores and let you choose which to send (test-flexible)

You could try places like Grinnell, Oberlin, Colby, or Bates. If you get in, your aid is guaranteed, and they are all either test-flexible or test-optional. And you have a heck of a lot better chance at one of them than at Notre Dame, Vandy, or state schools. I would not consider them a sure thing, though.

You could also consider one of the less competitive NESCACs. Maybe like Trinity or Conn College? They also guarantee aid if you are accepted.

Ultimately, I think there is value in choosing one or more of the following to apply to: Earlham, Beloit, Kalamazoo, Wooster, and Guilford. Those schools will generally give extremely low-income students far more than the their aid calculators predict. They are also all test-optional. And they are your best bet of getting in somewhere you can hopefully afford!