Need help with ECs - may be missing the window

Hank- if I look out at the kids (now in their 30’s) from one of my kids middle school grades, I have to admit that objectively speaking- the most successful one is a graduate of (drum roll please) Case. A fine university, for sure. But there were kids from that class who ended up populating the top 15 of the USNews rankings, and it was clearly an “outlier” type of class in terms of kids who met whatever standard of G&T would be used (the school did not have a G&T program but you know what I mean).

There is SO much more that goes into a successful 30 something than the name on the undergrad diploma. Which you know of course- but you look at your D and of course you want her to take advantage of everything she can.

And she will. If you take her fishing this summer, or to the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston over winter break, or she reads an article about the genetics of apple growing in the New Yorker (still one of my favorite articles of all time- everyone I know who has read it, wants to cultivate apples !) or gets passionate about Climate Change, or infant mortality in sub-Saharan Africa, or wants to visit the FBI museum over Spring break or spend time at the 9/11 Memorial or fall in love with the architecture of one of the museums at Yale… These are ways that kids who get exposed to various things end up finding a passion somewhere.

She doesn’t need helicopter parents, she just needs parents who can expose her to something beyond her HS and the latest whatever on tik-tok.

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I did mention that there are some kids that do it all on their own - and when I say on their own, I mean truly on their own. This means despite growing up poor, with uneducated parents to help shape their education, in a town or city with weak schools, no uncles or aunts or parents as role models for careers, to help them understand finance, or talk about social issues or science.

But all kids are guided and helped in various ways, and unfortunately, it is what it is. My kids grew up in an upper middle household. They had access to things other kids didn’t have (parens who talk about science, and music), we rented instruments for them to play in band, we could afford to live in a solid educatoin town and offer them honors classes to grow.

Yet, above us, there exists additional tiers. Families with access to tutors, who graduated from elite schools, who have even more resources.

So the entire process is unfair from the get-go really. Kudos entirely to your child, who sounds amazing. I truly am impressed when kids make their own way as if they were adults despite only being kids. I’m more concerned with the fact that college admissions officers really have no great way to tell the difference between a child like yours, and the many manufactured ones. That is why I have concerns about the process.

I’m super impressed with this, and it makes me realize just how different some kids have it. Your ideas are wonderful, many I couldn’t even think of, and from the genetics apple article to the museum ideas, I will certainly steal a few of them!

I grew up with a father in construction, and he took us to Disney world and gave us junk food. He went to the casino and told me that NFL football games were “fixed” when he lost bets. He told me college was for morons … and I went anyway. First to a community college, then transferred to a 4 year school. I believed in education. But it was hard to fight through the upbringing. My father was a loving father, and we’re best friends today still, but everything I did was the opposite of what he suggested :slight_smile:

I have a brother-in-law who went to an Ivy. He’s 50 now, but hasn’t done anything with his career. In fact he just sort of wanders around at home, and his wife has to slave long hours to make ends meet for the family.

I have had much more success, on the other hand. So I entirely get that happiness, success and such things are not tied entirely to college. Yet, there are correlations, and for those who have the help and/or earn the top schools, they have far more opportunities. So I just want to make sure I do not do her the same disservice - being that I am somewhat unqualified having no experience with getting into top schools.

Thanks so much for the wonderful ideas, and great post.

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You have described my D22 to a tee. Our older kids were good students, but not tippy top scholars, who went to the local flagship and did absolutely great. One has an advanced degree and established career. One is headed into grad studies and landed the first “real” job.

Your post could have been written about my high school senior. But I didn’t catch on that she could be “elite” college material until her PSAT score came in. Too late to really “nudge” her toward any ECs, if we were so inclined.

Her sport takes a ton of time, but the pandemic cancellations allowed her to really invest a lot more hours in community service and an outdoor internship. These were activities she ended up writing a lot about on college applications, so I am glad she was well-rounded in that sense.

But she wasn’t particularly “spiky” in one academic or artistic or intellectual or activist area. The term I have seen around here to describe kids like her is “average excellent.” And the very existence of your daughter suggests that MY daughter is not entirely unique even though she appears that way at her individual high school. :blush:

So — what have we learned through this college application process? It has been interesting. My D22 is considering an offer to play D3 at an excellent LAC (top 40, but not top 10), where she negotiated to apply RD because it is at the top of our financial comfort level even with their highest merit scholarship. She also has offers at large public universities where she received great merit scholarships, admission to Honors Colleges, and an accelerated degree program. We did not apply ED anywhere and results from the three most highly selective schools where she applied are not in yet. So ask me in a few months how much the ECs mattered, lol!

What I do know is that she may be LESS likely to attend one of those schools if accepted than she was at the start of this journey. Just because she is CAPABLE doesn’t necessarily mean she SHOULD. A D1 level athlete might choose to play D3 or not at all in order to be able to focus on the academics or college experience rather than the “job” of a D1 athlete. Similarly, a gifted student may want to avoid a campus filled with club presidents and teen entrepreneurs if that increases the student’s own anxiety and is perceived to require a level of effort that infringes too much on time the student would rather spend studying yoga, playing spike ball, attending football games, or joining a sorority for fun.

My kid worked really hard in high school and also lost a lot of experiences during the pandemic. It is important to her to make the most of college and not spend ALL of it grinding away to get another A to get into grad school. She wants to enjoy her classes and learn, not white-knuckle herself through every exam praying to end on the right end of the curve. Study-life balance is really important to her, also. That means not TOO much time devoted to any one area — academic or otherwise. She has lots of interests and wants room for all of them.

That means schools with weed-out classes where it is difficult to get into her desired major may not be for her. Honestly, we are STILL sorting it out after all the applications are in. Now that we are down to the final list, campus visits and deep dives into school websites and social media have been eye-opening.

I understand the impulse to do what you can to at least give your child the opportunity to consider an Ivy or similar school when your child is highly capable. And certainly making sure they don’t bypass low-hanging fruit when it comes to leadership and community service opportunities, etc., makes sense. But I see now that there would be no point in trying to tweak my kid’s activities to make her look more like the kids who go to Yale if, fundamentally, she ISN’T like the kids who go to Yale (notwithstanding that she could do just as well in classes there).

At the moment, there is a decent chance my kid will go to a state flagship just like her siblings. Rather than leveraging her academic promise to get into a highly ranked school, she may use it to take advantage of Honors College opportunities and other opportunities afforded through the savings she achieved with merit scholarships. Or maybe she’ll be accepted at a highly selective school and fall in love when we visit.

Wherever she chooses, the school will be a good fit. And no amount of monkeying we might have done with ECs would make a school a better fit, even if we did increase chances of admission. I used to think about it backwards — like I wanted the schools to recognize that she was “Top 10 material” or something. I thought those schools should WANT kids like mine; she just needed to do the things that would get them to pay attention. Now I think if a school isn’t paying attention based on my kid’s natural inclinations/profile, she is not likely to find her people there, so no huge loss. (Not to say that there isn’t an element of lottery in college admissions at schools that take only 5 out of 100, but that’s beyond any applicant’s control.)

She has watched another kid at the top of her class gunning hard for a “dream” school with a reputation of being very intense and competitive academically and wondered why when this kid suffers panic attacks over high school classes. Likewise, she sees teammates attending NAIA schools in undesirable locations with subpar facilities and academic programs just to say they received an athletic scholarship. It is easy to get caught up in the chase and want to be able to tell people you attend a school with a huge academic reputation or that you are a collegiate athlete — but that fleeting pride better be backed up with an institution your child is really happy to attend day in and day out or it isn’t worth it, in my opinion.

Best wishes to your daughter! She sounds awesome and I am sure she will be a star wherever she lands.

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Oh — and on the holding back thing — my D is physically a late bloomer who grew more than three inches AFTER she started high school. Honestly, it did hold her back in sports at times and kept her off the tippy top club team, but she was still recruited at the lower levels, somewhat to our surprise. Coaches love kids they can throw academic scholarships at. :wink:

There have already been great replies so I will just add one thought. Don’t underestimate the amount of maturation that happens in HS. My D made some big changes in ECs and interests between sophomore and junior year. She will natural grow and find her way.

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We see this for sure. Her best friend has massive anxiety and is obsessed with school and her grades. My daughter is a very responsible and hard worker, she always makes sure her homework is done, studies for tests, does her papers timely. But her friend is far worse. Every day she openly vents about homework, and recently she hounded the gym teacher to give her an A+ instead of an A for first quarter grade. At our HS, it is standard for gym teachers to give out A (95) grades, for kids who participate and do well. But for my daughter’s friend, She was trying to get an A+ in every single class, so had to have multiple conversations with the gym teacher to lobby for the A+. My daughter thought that wasn’t worth it (remembering my daughter plays HS soccer, is athletic and likes gym), and she was fine with the A grade in gym. Her GPA was around 4.0 UW, so at the end of the day, is that much stress worth it? Plus, most colleges “throw out” your health/gym/music/baking type grades anyway and enter your classes into their own GPA calculators. For those that do not (mainly large state schools), they aren’t going to care if someone has a 4.03 or a 4.01.

Your post had many excellent points. I know my D24 would not want to play Div 1 soccer. Sure, she would love the acknowledgement, but it is a rigorous, demanding full time job at that level and trumps all other aspects of college. I played D2 baseball and I ended up quitting and giving up my partial scholarship as a sophomore after realizing that college sports were all work, and no fun. She could consider Division III, but as mentioned earlier, many of the schools I think she would choose would be D1, so likely she would be club (or no more soccer at all as she focuses on school, and social life). She currently is drawn to Boston (she loves going there to visit), and schools like Northeastern, BU. Unlike my older 2, who did not want to be in a city, she seems to like it. Those schools would not be cheap of course even if she wins a lot of merit, so we will likely play the game as we did with the older 2 (apply to 8-10 schools and play a game of show me the money).

However, schools like Stanford, MIT, ivies and California schools, could make her willing to borrow more if it were for the right fit and program. That is of course, if she ends up wanting to apply to them, and of course, they are interested in her. But I agree with you, if she doesn’t want to be with those type of kids, it doesn’t make sense to apply. My D who is at WPI was also very interested in Carnegie Mellon, and had a pretty good chance to get in, but she refused to apply for that very reason. She didn’t want to be with a ton of kids who all where super type-A overachievers. She wanted kids more like herself (very good student, but not perfect)

My kid , DS22, did not end up applying to the tippy tops like HYPSM for this reason. Regarding his EC’s : some he found on his own - built up a sagging club at school; participated in some online contests; others I helped locate - but left it up to him if he wanted to pursue; he joined up with a local organization for volunteering, and his most significant EC was with an existing national organization. So I don’t see anything wrong with helping to locate opportunities, and provide some guidance as a parent.

A couple of interesting ones , where a student can volunteer from home, are zooniverse.com and Smithsonian digital volunteers (https://transcription.si.edu/)

I have also noticed that some kids at his high school have parent-curated EC’s which have resulted in acceptances to top tier universities. With so many top applicants, I am not sure the AO’s can really tell the difference, even though they claim to . There are also consultants that will find “unique Ec’s” , and “research opportunities” , for $$$ of course . All this really makes me question the process at these top shelf universities.

Best of luck to your daughter! I am sure she will find a nice path for herself!

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Agreed. I was a little surprised at some of the strong stances I saw in earlier replies, when I think we all know that many kids are at least presented options and ideas by their parents. It’s up to the kids to pursue. Sure, some kids have parents who even run the EC for the kid (we knew a family that organized an Odyssey of the Mind group that their kids featured in, and went to competition in, with the parents doing the lion’s share of the actual EC work), but that’s not what I am interested in. I am more looking for ideas, resources, so that I can nudge my kid to see if anything strikes her fancy. I have no interest in forcing her to do robotics if she doesn’t like it.

As for those who think admissions counselors can tell … I have no doubt that is largely not the case. There may be some one-off cases where an admissions counselor can detect exact levels of parent involvement, but in most cases I doubt they can tell the difference. The whole thing is very much a game unfortunately, and less so a true meritocracy. Between the paid for college advisors, paid for SAT prep, manufactured ECs in some cases, I would assume it’s not so easy to tell which kids have accomplished all of that on their own.

Thanks for these resources!

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I too get defensive when I see people state that highly driven and motivated students are somehow not normal kids. Despite what you might hear from others, you are not in that household, you have not witnessed that child’s development and do not know everything that child has gone through.

Do you have concerns about the process or are you looking for help with EC? You’ve been offered many suggestions on places to start but are shooting them down for a variety of reasons. Are you saying that parents who “present options” to their children are “manufacturing EC”? Are you not going to present the suggestions you receive here to your daughter?

This was my student. We didn’t realize she had a chance at a tippy top school until the SAT scores came in but our constraint was financial. We had budgeted for in state tuition at a UC and told her if she wanted to attend a private school, she would need to apply for scholarships or earn merit to bring the price down to the level of UC tuition. She was admitted to all of the UCs that she applied to. She received no money from one T10 private school, a pittance from another T10 private and full tuition at a T30 private. If you are looking for a school to “show you the money,” you might look at schools a tier down in rankings.

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Your daughter sounds like an amazing kid who is on the right track and will have plenty of college options.

I have two high achieving kids, one of whom is at an ivy. The other is also targeting selective colleges. My philosophy has always been to support and encourage their passions. You say your daughter doesn’t have a passion, but she seems invested in soccer. Perhaps nudge her a bit more on that front. Sports was the biggest EC for my ivy kid. She was captain of two varsity sports, an All-American, played on the junior national team, and garnered state and local sports awards. Community service and good grades/test scores rounded out her profile. In her college essays, she talked about the power of women working together for a common goal, something she knew a lot about from sports. She didn’t have to create a story for college admissions. She just lived authentically and found a college that loved who she was.

My ivy kid is also an introvert, but she is a wonderful mentor to younger players. Is there an opportunity for your daughter to teach/mentor younger players? Perhaps she could work as a coach at the YMCA or at a summer sports camp? It’s also pretty easy for high schoolers to get certified to referee youth games, which is another way to teach younger players.

What I’ve noticed in our affluent, suburban community is that the curated kids with pushy parents are indistinguishable from one another; they all do the same handful of activities thinking it will lead to HYPSM and they are often disappointed in the admissions process. Don’t go down that path. Let your daughter lead, with some well-intentioned nudges from you, and she will find her place.

One final caveat: your daughter should be invested in the process and share your vision for her future. It takes an incredible amount of grit and self-motivation to make it at top schools. Imposter syndrome abounds especially when kids get the first low or failing grades of their academic career. It can be both the most challenging and the most rewarding experience.

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For my soccer playing D22 her sport is her main EC (she is recruitable but had no interest in following that route). She is also playing year round and it eats up a lot of her time. She started working as a soccer referee when she was 14. We didn’t know anything about college applications at that time, so I didn’t know what an EC was. But this activity has turned out to be an excellent EC. You’ve been around the sport, so you know that refereeing presents oodles of essay topics :wink: - leadership, resiliency, communication skills, conflict resolution, etc. And it pays very well in our area! Maybe your D would be interested.

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Sorry you interpreted things this way, but I was indeed looking for ideas and suggestions, and do plan to present ideas to my daughter. I mentioned that in the thread. I was talking about this being a necessary part of the process. Long ago, a few kids naturally had ECs because they went off and did something they wanted to. Now, many kids know you need a series of ECs, so of course some are manufactured. I even remember in the 90s a few kids joining 5 clubs after school, not really being into any of them, but getting them “on the resume”. So I do not love the process, but I do believe it’s in my kid’s best interest to have some, and I would prefer her to run with them and be things she likes, but she’s mainly focused on school and sports, so I am ok with the notion of presenting her some ideas. As far as I recall, I haven’t “shot anything down” on this thread, mainly planning to run with some of the great ideas I have read here.

On the “schools at a tier down”, oh, believe me that is 100% part of the plan. For financial/merit and other reasons, she will probably apply to a range of schools, including a safety and maybe a few reach schools (which is what this discussion was really about). And thanks for your reply!

Thanks for the idea. She has done some working with Top Soccer, a program where you mentor and help disabled kids play soccer. She has some great stories from that as well, but it was something she did for 3 years in middle school, not sure if that would count. Refereeing angle is an interesting one. Pays well, but I know in the past her words about kid refs has been “man, I would hate to be her” since you have grown adults screaming at the ref kids, sadly.

My daughter is not that kid. She’s a premier team starter, but she’s not the star player. I doubt she would want to be the captain. Our HS has 2000+ kids, and there are a ton of talented kids who fight for playing time in the soccer program. If we lived one town over, she’d be a varsity starter as a freshman, but in our town, she’s one of many very good kids. I’m not sure how much more we should nudge her, we want her to enjoy it (my oldest quit sports mid high-school despite being a top player because she felt it was way too stressful). I would be shocked if she made all-state, or even all conference. But, she’s a good player with a lot of potential so I could see some Div3 coach being interested in a kid who also happens to have a 5.0 weighted GPA. I doubt any schools are going to be fighting over her soccer ability, though.

Thanks for the great points on the rest of your post as well.

What we discovered with our college senior is that she could not attend a reach school, because it was not affordable. A reach does not need to award merit, so even with an almost perfect gpa, lots of AP classes, rest honors, if the cost was over $35,000, it was not an option, and many/most are $70,000+. Although she had several EC’s, it didn’t matter, because she was going to get accepted at the colleges she could attend, and merit was based on gpa/test scores. All of the schools where EC’s would help for admittance were unaffordable. We aren’t eligible for FA.

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You make a good point. I do wonder if ECs help with admission to Honors Colleges, other top scholar programs, and discretionary scholarships at the non-reach schools, though.

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That I’m not sure of, I have 2 in honors right now, one applied before being admitted, the other recently as a freshman (it was a last minute college application last year and she was done with applications/essays).

Right. With some types of scholarships or programs definitely yes.

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Ok, here is my specific advice for navigating ECs for highly selective college admissions:

First and foremost, don’t nudge her into doing anything that someone else in your area is also doing. Unless she is the best of the best — not only in your area, but possibly nationwide — it would be really hard to distinguish herself in common activities…even if they seem to be the common activities of high achieving kids.

She can do her own thing, in her own time. I don’t know much about the areas you mention, but the genetics and human geography interests made me wonder if she might be interested in genealogy or local history. She could create a project researching your family and perhaps find an interesting twist, or she could research and create a walking tour of your town that could be accessible through YouTube or podcast format. With the second, she might even work with the local chamber of commerce or tourism to create something that could be useful to them.

These kinds of projects can be listed as activities on the Common App. They are far more interesting than regular activities like FBLA or robotics or Rotary Interact or similar. My kids were involved with these kinds of ECs, too, so I am not criticizing them. But it’s really hard to set yourself apart when so many kids are doing the exact same things.

As some other people mentioned, jobs are great and well-respected. My younger daughter’s main activity is actually her job. Jobs are far more respected and valued by AOs than pay-to-play programs. Don’t spend thousands of dollars to send her to a college or similar program, thinking it will look good on an application. It won’t. It’s not interesting, it shows privilege, and it isn’t self-directed or initiated. They are money makers for colleges, but even the admissions office of that college will rarely care about the summer programs that the college offers. You will find kids who get in when listing those $$$ programs, but they get in despite listing them, not because of them.

Also, if she is involved in any family activities, they can also be listed on the common app. AOs appreciate seeing kids who have responsibility for sibling care or regularly helping with grandparents or other family members. My daughter’s friend has much younger siblings and listed her after-school responsibilities for watching/feeding/entertaining them daily.

If your daughter isn’t inclined to do anything beyond what she has on her plate, that’s ok. She will have great opportunities and likely shine wherever she goes. She might not be able to separate herself from the rest of the applicant pool at a top 20 school without that level of motivation at this point, but she might with some amazing essays. Or she might end up with good merit, in an honors college, at your state flagship, crush her classes there, find her passion, and follow it to top college post-grad. There are many paths to success and happiness, and a top 20 schools isn’t the only way.

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