<p>I am hoping to pick the brains of all you wonderful folks! I was subbing in a calc class today & had a long conversation with a young man who is very, very bright. It is clear that he really understands math & science concepts on a deeper level than the other students. Unfortunately, he is the kind who knows all so hasn't seen the need to do homework, "dumb" assignments, etc. He attends an "okay" public high school & takes a difficult load of classes. Because he doesn't toe the line by doing his assignments, he gets B's when he could get A's. His gpa is around 3.5 w/ 3.2 u (upward trend since 9th grade). His teachers consider him lazy. He is considered a very hard worker at his part time job, though. I don't actually get the sense he is lazy. I think he is seriously bored ... and he is surrounded by students who care more about getting an A than about understanding the subject matter (a hallmark of both students & parents at his school). </p>
<p>His ACT is a 29, with a 34 in science, 31 in Math, and mid 20's in English & Reading. At his school, 29 is among the very top ACT scores. </p>
<p>The student's dad makes about $12/hour & his mom is disabled. They are divorced & maintain 2 households. He will be the first in his family to go to a 4 year college.</p>
<p>He told me that he doesn't know what he will do next year. He currently takes some courses at the local cc through dual enrollment. He figures he will probably just continue there. I asked him why & he told me he assumes he can't afford school. Obviously, he would qualify for great aid at a school that meets need. Unfortunately, it may be difficult to find such a school that would be willing to accept him with his record. He isn't a bad student ... he just isn't the kind of "top" student that usually gets the great deals. I suggested Wayne State & UDMercy, since he could live at home. I also told him he can go to cc for a year or two to establish a great record & try to transfer.</p>
<p>However, I suspect that there may be some other viable options for him to check into for next year. He would do well in an environment where students WANT to understand what they are learning, where math & science types are helped rather than penalized for their lack of writing prowess, where geeky kids fit in, and where underachievers bloom. Of course, great need based aid is a necessity given his situation. He isn't sure what he wants to study, but he knows he isn't interested in engineering. Any suggestions from you wise & all knowing readers? Don't worry about location.</p>
<p>He might do best at one of the top state public U's, living on campus with other good students, in the honors program, maybe work-study to help finance things along with other funds. I would get his GC talking to the schools to see what can be done with this student who needs a challenge- I would hate to see him end up with the average college students. Get him to at least try for the top, it may be his incentive to do well and transfer. Don't know too much about how easy it is to deal with the system there- you're a lake and a time zone away with the clues given.</p>
<p>Kelsmom, Lake Forest, Albion, Wooster, Ohio Wesleyan and Hanover in Indiana are all supposed to be very good with financial aid. I think he would have excellent chances at all of these schools.</p>
<p>Is midwest necessary? If not, I suggest Ursinus, Juniata. Ursinus in particular has wonderful aid. Everyone seems to get something. Hampshire would be a reach, but it might be possible. The other idea are schools like Goucher and Wheaton. The female/male ratio at those schools make male students particularly welcome and, I know for a fact, rewarded at Goucher.</p>
<p>Good luck to him, and best to you for trying to help!</p>
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where math & science types are helped rather than penalized for their lack of writing prowess, where geeky kids fit in
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<p>Look at Cooper Union in NYC. They charge no tuition, and only have 3 majors, I think: Engineering, Architecture and Art. I'm sure they have engineering and architecture, not sure if I'm right about Art. I don't know if they charge for room-and-board. Since he has experience working part-time jobs, he'd readily find work in NYC to help his own situation. It's in a GREAT neighborhood of Manhattan, near NYU and Greenwich Village, great for student life.</p>
<p>My nephew went there for Engineering, graduated, then changed his mind and went on to Law School. He lived in some kind of dorm building. Anyway, this doesn't necessarily mean you're deciding your career at age l8 either. I did always want to drive over bridges that my nephew built, but maybe I'll send him my legal questions instead. We aunts have our own agendas.</p>
<p>Bravo for you, Kelsmom, as a substitute teacher, to pick up on a student this way!!</p>
<p>From your post, I assume that the student lives in Michigan. He should look at Michigan Tech in Houghton/Hancock and Kettering University (formerly General Motors Institute) in Flint.</p>
<p>Da UP is not for everyone, but Michigan Tech has very well regarded engineering and math programs. Instate tuition, room and board runs about 17K a year, but there are many merit scholarships and grants that could reduce this substantially.</p>
<p>Kettering is a private school, where tuition, room and board are about $31K a year. However, Kettering has an extensive co-op program where, they claim, students earn between $40-$65K over 4 years. In addition, with a 3.2 gpa and 29 ACT, he'd get $13K a year in merit scholarship money. All of this information is on their website. Like Michigan Tech, Kettering is well known for math and engineering, and has a close relationship with the automobile industry. I know grads from both Michigan Tech and Kettering who have done very well for themselves finding jobs after graduation.</p>
<p>Let's see if I understand:
bored in school
lack of effort
considered lazy by teachers = poor recommendations
doesn't "toe the line" = not a team player? antisocial?
poor parental support
no money
geeky with limited non-technical skills
No specific ambitions or motivation</p>
<p>On the positive size he has pretty good math/science ACT scores.</p>
<p>Overall the bottom line does not look very good. In my area the community colleges are really good at working with kids like this young man.</p>
<p>My youngest son was a lot like this boy, though with stronger scores, slightly worse (and declining) grades, and no job. (Who says you can't be both bored and lazy?) We were looking for schools that would be likely to accept him, challenge him academically, and provide good need-based aid. Based on those criteria, he applied to Knox College (IL) and Lawrence U (WI) and received very good aid packages from both. I would also suggest looking at St. Olaf and Wooster, though I'm not sure how their aid would compare. Oberlin would be another possibility, though likely a reach.
My son attends Lawrence and is majoring in math and physics. They require students to take a writing-intensive course and a speaking-intensive course. The required 2-term freshman studies course is also very writing-intensive and they work with students to develop their writing skills. There is also a help center on campus, where students can go for additional help with writing, study skills, etc.</p>
<p>I would definitely recommend a smaller school with good science and math over a CC or large university for this sort of student. The CTCL do change lives. They can take in underachievers and turn them on. From my experience dealing with high schoolers, male students sometimes need an extra push and extra help as they prepare to leave home. Financial resources from the schools will probably be amazing for such a student applying to the right schools. Where is the school counselor in all of this?</p>
<p>Maybe Clark? Small and I think it's strong in the math/science realm, but am not sure. This is a situation in which "packaging" really would be useful. Your assessment of him made me really "see" him, and I think colleges might too if presented the right way. As for community college -- I know a number of people who started there and went on to top colleges and graduate schools. And some of them were complete slackers in high school -- way worse than this kid.</p>
<p>kelsmom, I think you know I am a Furman grad, but I did live in the midwest in HS years. He doesn't sound like the kind of kid who would be coming south, so I can't comment on schools much for his fit. I commend you for the thought you are putting into this first generation student's vocational dead end attitude. If he is in a home where there are no long term goals re college, there will be obstacles in his thinking and his ability to project himself out there beyond HS, where he has already underachieved and only marginally participated. If he is good at numbers, which he clearly is...how about if you give him a short article on his future earnings Numbers without college vs with a degree? I would ask to see him with his guidance counselor present. That way, your adult counsel will be burnished in his mind as a moment when other adults were very frank with him. Although this meeting may not result in his college readiness, it may go down in his personal history as a moment when he was offered guidance and some vision. Never underestimate how much "discernment" about one's future is actually simmering under the surface without any form or direction in any kid, although he may have to go a circuitous route to gainful employment/fulfillment. It is too late for him to alter most of his HS record, but it is most certainly not too late for achievement in college, and that is your message to him. If you succeed in getting him on the radar of his HS counselor (I know..ours has near 300 students each)...or if you succeed in getting him to the best Community College GC around, you will have helped him. I would however also venture with him the stats on both those who spin CC years into gold by nailing their grades there, and the sometimes grim numbers of those who never finish it or blow it. Tell him straight out that commitment to a school that has a high graduation rate would much more likely result in his completion of college and his ability to work to his potential if he tries college, and point out the realities of drop out rates in the schools to which you refer him. It may take as little a thing as the right guidance letter, a quick survey of his parental situation and his ACT score to get him into several colleges that might provide a supportive place for his growing up years and education. I personally like the smaller schools for a young adult in sore need of mentorship and relationship.<br>
keep us informed...and best.</p>
<p>Faline2 offers a good suggestion to bring in the GC, but you have to overcome a slight disadvantage being "just" a substitute teacher. So emphasize that you have a fresh voice to offer, do a lot of reading about colleges in your spare time, and this kid just jumped out at you for the difference between his academics and potential. If his regular teachers and/or GC already pegged him as lazy, you have to be very clever to promote the kid without acting like you noticed something the regular teacher missed, in other words, insulting the work of the school as a whole. It's an insider/outsider thing as a sub teacher, which I know from having been first a sub, and then eventually full-time. If you're a regular sub in the school, that's better than just being per diem. </p>
<p>Suppose you approached the GC with this observation, that you think you found a kid under the radar screen and want to share perceptions. Don't name the kid until she agrees, in concept, to talk with you. If you say his name first, she might not even want to talk about him. They might be already disappointed in him.</p>
<p>EDIT: You have another card to play, too. If you ask for a minute from the principal, you can thank him for the work, praise the school, notice the overload, and mention this one kid who got under your skin in a good way. Describe your perceptions. Ask how you can help the kid. Maybe he has some thoughts, or would call the GC for you to look into his situation anew. Just an idea, if you sense a good principal but weak GC. If the principal calls the GC, you know she'll look at this kid;s file; she'd have to.</p>
<p>It is unfortunate, but there are many students like this one. I won't repeat edad's list.</p>
<p>The unfortunate truth is that success in High School, College and the working world is highly correlated with doing what is expected, not what one wants to do. This is why colleges are loath to admit underachievers, as experience has shown that this pattern of underachievement is all too likely to continue. Sad but true.</p>
<p>It seems to me what he needs is an environment that will mentor him, help him to understand the importance of meeting expectations, and see if that spark for achievement is hidden in him. I suspect the worst possible place would be a large state uni with lots of distractions, but what do I know? I'm only a parent...</p>
<p>I've seen far too many boys needing extra growth time pushed to attend a residential 4-year college only to bomb out and return home their first year. This had nothing to do with their book smarts or potential as many had profiles similar to this boy, solid scores/average GPA's. Despite speculation that the boy doesn't do his HS work out of boredom, and that his GPA is a reflection of that, signs still point to a glaring lack of maturity. Many kids feel underchallenged or bored in HS, yet still do what it takes to successfully move on to the next level. As newmassdad said, doing what is expected.</p>
<p>Since finances are extremely tight and significant merit aid will be hard to come by with this boy's lopsided stats, I think the stepping-stone approach to a degree is the way to go. You mentioned him living at home, working, and attending a 4-year college such as Wayne or U of D. That would be my recommendation as well. Assuming he lives in the Greater Detroit Metro area, I'd also suggest he consider Oakland U and U-Michigan/Dearborn or Flint. I'm not a big fan of the CC's as a starting point with a kid that has respectable stats such as this boy. The local 4-year commuter schools would provide a much higher caliber peer group which is what a kid like this needs around him for motivation and growth. If he's successful with this first step, then certainly a transfer to a residential college would be the next option if the family's financial status can help support it.</p>
<p>29 on the ACT --- hmmm, I'd have told my kids "You had a bad day, don't worry about it." Unfortunately that's the best part of this OP's student.</p>
<p>As a former bright slacker-boy myself, I'd suggest that the OP's student needs to "get a grip" on what he wants from life. Until that happens, I'm afraid most schoolwork is going to be boring for him. Who was it that said "Attitude is Everything?"</p>
<p>Thank you so much for all of your insight! I agree with everyone, actually. Those who point to attitude being key are correct. This young man definitely needs to get a grip & learn that sometimes you need to do things you don't want to do in order to achieve a desired end. For that reason, I like the idea of a supportive college community, which others have suggested. </p>
<p>Some of your suggestions re: colleges are ones I gave to him during our discussion the other day. Other suggestions are new to me, and I will definitely look into them. While I am familiar with many schools, I have approached the college search from the point of view of a parent with a child who had excellent grades & test scores. Consequently, I haven't been looking for the schools that change the lives of young people like this student. Thanks again for your suggestions.</p>
<p>I sub in this school on a very regular basis (at least 3 times a week). I have been around this student before, but I have not had a chance to talk to him in depth until last week. The class was just finishing up a project, so most of the students didn't have much to do. I asked them about their college plans, and that led to my talk with Mr. Underachiever. There is very little creativity in terms of college planning in this community --- UMich for top students, and various state colleges for everyone else. CC is the top choice in this high school, for both financial and academic reasons. Counselors spend their time with behavior issues, out of necessity. I will take some of your suggestions about dealing with this through the school to heart.</p>
<p>I am not sure if this young man will rise to the challenge if he is given an opportunity to attend a school that would meet his needs. I just got the feeling, though, that he might. A couple years ago, I worked with a student in this school who was going to go to UMich. To be honest, he was lacking some academic skills & would have had a tough time at UM. In addition, he came from a poor family & would have been many thousands of dollars in debt by graduation. As luck would have it, this young man had applied to some top colleges "because they were in a book I read about writing college essays" (he didn't know anything about the schools other than that!). He was rejected from all but Wesleyan (he had a 29 ACT & maybe a 3.7 gpa). He happened to share this with me as a point of discussion; he had already decided to go to UM. I showed him the financial advantage of attending Wes, and I assured him it was an outstanding school. He ended up attending Wes. While he has had to work harder than most (something he was not used to doing!), he has done quite well. The school has great support systems. He has an amazingly bright future & a manageable debt load. I would like to be able to help this new student in a similar fashion. He is not the same type of student, but I think there may be a place that will help him to blossom. </p>
<p>kelsmom-
Have this kid look into the questbridge program QuestBridge</a> Home Page Maybe it will motivate him to focus a little more onhis academics, as there are possibilities out there for him!</p>
<p>I would recommend Alfred State College in New York. The school's official title is the State University of New York Technical College at Alfred.</p>
<p>The school is unique in that it offers mainly 2-year degrees (although they do offer, and are expanding to offer more, 4-year degrees.) It is not what I would call competetive but the average income of graduatates is higher than many schools that are competitive.</p>
<p>The school has a rural setting which I have found helps students that lack focus. </p>
<p>A few examples of people it has helped that I know personally:</p>
<p>My brother went there and graduated with a 2-year and then moved onto John Hopkins in Maryland. He is now working as a Chemist.</p>
<p>My uncle went there (nearly flunked out before getting on track) graduated with a 2-year and transfered to the Rochester Institute of Technology where he got his engineering degree. He now works for Exxon-Mobile outside of Chicago.</p>
<p>The faculty is known to work with students that are not motivated and helping them to find what gets them excited. </p>
<p>The school is located directly accross the street from Alfred University (a private university.)</p>
<p>Hope this helps. Money may be tough but I have watched as this school has turned many lives around.</p>