<p>Napolean Learnmestuff and VC I really think you will be happier elsewhere but make a visit and talk to the students and you will know how you feel by the time you leave. Good luck</p>
<p>Claremarie,
Again, I wouldn't expect you to understand, considering that you've never been a student at Notre Dame, but sometimes our impressions of a place are shaped by an amalgam of impressions and not-so-concrete experiences. Also, liberal vs. conservative isn't only the republican vs. democrat dichotomy. So asking how many ND students support McCain vs. Obama isn't really saying anything, because there are liberal-esque people who will support McCain because he's more moderate than conservative and conservatives who won't support either of them because neither is conservative enough. (Must say, however, that I love Obama!!!)</p>
<p>But since you'd like some concrete examples, I'll give you some. I have long been a democrat (much to the chagrin of my fiscally conservative, Republican parents). I'm pretty liberal in my views, but hold many Catholic values. During my senior year at Notre Dame, the college democrats held a debate with college republicans regarding certain controversial policies. The college republican presence was overwhelming, while the college democrats had little representation. When it was time for student input from the audience, the conservative voice was so overwhelming that little of the liberal viewpoint could be interjected. </p>
<p>Similarly, I took a class in medical ethics at Notre Dame and the professor took a pro-choice/pro-life vote in the class. I and six others in a class of 50 or so raised our hands for pro-choice. Everyone else was pro-life. We (the entire class), were forced by the theology professor to watch a video of a real-life abortion, almost as though he was trying to beat any inch of pro-choice-ness out of us. At asked at the end of the video, he asked if any of us pro-choicers had changed our minds. I raised my hand and said, "i'm pro-life, not pro-abortion. I believe that abortion is undesirable, just that the government doesn't have the right to tell women they have to be pregnant." After class, I really felt the cold shoulder from many of my classmates. It was like one political viewpoint had really changed people's opinions of me. In many other similar situations at Notre Dame, I felt pressure to suppress some of my political views, though as I got older, I became more secure in myself, and cared less about what people thought. </p>
<p>If you really want to get an insight into ND's conservative bias, read (with a critical lens) The Observer's editorials for any length of time; not only has The Obsever been known to publish many articles that are offensive to women, minorities, and others, it has been known to get away with publishing such garbage largely because the viewpoints it publishes are held by a good chunk of the student body. I remember reading an article once by a student from Nouth Carolina on race relations where she referred to the Civil War as the "war of northern aggression" (when in fact our history books tell us that South threw the first stone), and discussed the Duke lacrosse scandal with such offensive racial undertones that I was sure it would ignite a firestorm of responses; yet the next day in the Observer, there was an article written by a black student chastising her, but little other debate on the topic; the fact that the Observer would even have the nerve to publish such an offensive article in the first place floored me, but the fact that only a few, outspoken liberals ever responded to such trash shows the stifled liberal influence on campus. This is not to say that conservatives are all as ignorant as the girl who wrote this story; I don't believe so, but I think that in a conservative environment, the most traditional conservatives can get away with this kind of crap. </p>
<p>I've also been in classes discussing issues such as distribution of wealth, poverty, race, affirmative action, and welfare, where the conservative view has been well represented. In addition, because conservatives are so at home at Notre Dame, I've been in the classroom environment with students who justify their conservatism with blatantly racist, homophobic, or sexist rhetoric and sterotypes; I became an outspoken challenger of such, but was usually alone in my challenges, or had one or two allies. Some memorable exerpts: a student was against immigration because "we don't want them [the Mexicans] to take what belongs to us." A student was against affirmative action because "blacks shouldn't be given a free shot when whites usually work harder than them." A student openly expressed that he thought Jim Crow laws were valuable because they ensured that everybody knew their place. Just a couple of examples. </p>
<p>Because of the overwhelmingly conservative bias, such views often go unchallenged, which is scary, considering the whole point of a university is to challenge our assumptions. Something tells me that they wouldn't get away with such offensive language at Berkeley.</p>
<p>I must say that while many think that ND is 50-50, I can't agree to this given my experiences. While 50% of ND students may be liberal or hold personal beliefs or political beliefs that are liberal, I found being a liberal on campus to be an ongoing struggle. While I was never harassed for holding my political beliefs, I definitely understood that I had to be reserved about them in many situations. </p>
<p>Perhaps most frustrating, though, was attempting to have a discussion with self-described, hard-core conservatives who had little justifications for why they believed what they believed. Many closemindedly just went with the flow, and wouldn't even want to engage in any kind of discourse that threatened their worldviews. </p>
<p>In my circle however, I found that many of my closest friends at Notre Dame, became more liberal, because they realized that many of the conservative views they had when they entered college came from their parents; through life experiences during college and having in depth, nonthreatening discussions about important issues, they were free to make their own decisions. One of my best friends, however, said that finding her own beliefs was difficult in such an overwhelmingly conservative-biased environment. </p>
<p>I must end by saying that I do not believe that all conservatives or all Republicans hold the offensive views mentioned above. I really believe that such views are remnants of an old conservativism. What I am saying, to underscore this point, is that in a conservative environment, particularly one where people aren't sure why they hold conservative beliefs, such ignorance can go unchecked. </p>
<p>Take what you will from my opinion.</p>
<p>In terms of racial diversity, you can look at the numbers, no one can dispute those. If those numbers affect someone's decision than so be it. But if a person who is not caucasian avoids a school because he or she can't fit in with caucasians but needs to be cloistered with those of similar racial background then that person has a problem not the rest of us. I must say that in three and a half semesters I have never seen nor heard about a racial incident (less that crazy guy in Montana or South Dakota or wherever).</p>
<p>Isn't intellectual diversity valued at all? I believe that Notre Dame is just as if not more more intellectually diverse than other top colleges. Some of you say that we are all conservative, perhaps because there are so many Catholics. Well let me tell you something, Catholicism is not conservative. And American Catholics are not conservative. Half of all Catholics in America are Democrats, if that is any indication. And I don't know how you want to define liberal or conservative because those labels don't have a solid meaning. But I will tell you that at the anti-war protest yesterday, there were Democrats and Republicans (and a few libertarians). And do you know why Sorin College is not Sorin Hall? Because it seceded from the University in protest of Vietnam in 1969. I guess it's just those goofy Domers doing their thing.</p>
<p>Now, two of my roommates are African American (I'm white, I'm from California, I'm in the Filipino club). They are very different guys, but they are good guys and other than the tone of their skin I couldn't tell them apart from my other roommates. This is because like minds attract regardless of skin color. At Notre Dame we might not have as many Asian students or African American students by percentage. But don't think that having a different skin color sets one apart; it is attitude and character that bring one into the fold or leave one at the gates. </p>
<p>If anyone is questioning Notre Dame because of racial demographics I hope that he or she rethink that. The more important factor is the intellectual diversity of the students. And that we do have. Besides, if you are a minority student considering Notre Dame, if you come here that minority percentage goes up and in the future more minority students might consider and the momentum builds.</p>
<p>Finally, to anyone who isn't a current student and thinks they know enough to post here, just don't please. There are enough current students like myself to answer these questions. The rest of you make us look like fools sometimes.</p>
<p>bpayne...what year are you? Because I feel like I have a pretty good grip on ND dynamics having just graduated in 2007, and having been super involved in the school during my 4 years there. I get your point, especially about those long removed or those like claremarie who have never attended, but there are those outside of current students who have important things to say too.</p>
<p>How long ago did you graduate princess? Or did you go to a different Notre Dame, the one in Maryland maybe?</p>
<p>But really, I can't dispute your stories if they happened to you. I guess I just run in the more liberal circles because I've never been shouted down or gotten the cold shoulder. It's Arts & Letters baby, we're all Buddhists.</p>
<p>ROTC students were being heckled this week by anti-war protesters outside of lafun. Also, I had a philo prof who spent three class periods explaining to us why God can't exist, and I am taking a sex and evolution class this semester. There is definitely at least a mild liberal presence on campus.</p>
<p>Again, I wouldn't expect you to understand, considering that you've never been a student at Notre Dame, but sometimes our impressions of a place are shaped by an amalgam of impressions and not-so-concrete experiences."</p>
<p>I appreciate your observations. I haven't been a student at Notre Dame, but I have attended two other universities, one of them extremely liberal. When I was in law school, not a single person I knew (myself included) was pro-life. When we discussed Roe v. Wade, it was through the East/West Coast Ivy League liberal lens we all seemed to share, and not once did the professors or any student express any reservations regarding the fundamental basis of that decision. </p>
<p>My point is that you too seem steeped in this liberal bias, which is why it was such a shock to you to encounter what appeared to be SO MANY fellow students who did not share your beliefs, whether they were pro-choice, anti-war, or support for redistributive economic policies. As you will find when you leave the university setting for the real world, Notre Dame is actually far more representative of society as a whole than the typical elite university, where the conservative viewpoint is far more "stifled" than anything you experienced on campus.<br>
And, yes, I have been reading the Observer for quite some time, and have found articles written from a diversity of viewpoints. Some of the "liberal" letters have been as unsophisticated and superficial as the conservative commenters you encountered in your classes -- that is the nature of debates among young people who are still trying to figure out what they believe and why they believe it.<br>
For whatever it's worth, I've met just as many closed-minded liberals on campus and in the real world -- universities and the mainstream media are full of them.</p>
<p>My d. is a freshman and her impressions are very consistent with what PrincessND posted. She has had people express consternation about her political beliefs. Still, there is a healthy liberal minority on campus. She lucked into one such pocket through the Center for Social Concerns, and another through a class in Peace Studies. </p>
<p>There is diversity of thought there but you do have to extend yourself and go looking for it. Just like you probably have to go looking for a conservative point of view at Yale or Harvard. </p>
<p>One of the most positive things that has happened for her this year is that because her beliefs fall outside of the mainstream she has had to examine her thinking in a critical way. That is never, ever a bad thing. Had she attended one of her other choices, where she'd be solidly in the mainstream (liberal on social issues, conservative in her personal values, very concerned about the environment and in economic justice) she'd just drift along and never really know why she believes what she believes.</p>
<p>She has grown tremendously in many ways--ND has been an excellent experience, even if at times it was a lonely and uncomfortable place for her.</p>
<p>Class of 2010, although I admit that 07 wasn't that long ago.</p>
<p>"(liberal on social issues, conservative in her personal values, very concerned about the environment and in economic justice)"</p>
<p>That's what Catholicism should be, and the more you know about Catholic social teaching the more it is. Unfortunately many people (not just at Notre Dame) just check down to "conservative" or "liberal" but there are many of us who don't fit categories. A friend told me last week that I am a "crunchycon" which is a conservative who cares about the environment. I've also been pegged a Republican and a Democrat. Many people don't understand the concept of being a registered non-partisan, they think it is "independent" but it's not. Politically Notre Dame is very consistent with the greater social patchwork of America. Some might say it is conservative but that is because they are just used to the overwhelming liberalness of universities in general.</p>
<p>
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You can't come up with a single concrete example of the overwhelmingly conservative nature of the school?
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</p>
<p>Well since you refuse to agree with professional rankings, then I guess not. Why don't you get over your precious parental ego-trip and interview kids yourself then?</p>
<p>
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m still waiting for someone to substantiate the assertion that ND lacks diversity because, among other things, the student body is overwhelmingly conservative.
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....even though your entire argument up to this point has been that it's "liberal"...amusing, really.</p>
<p>
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Napolean Learnmestuff and VC I really think you will be happier elsewhere
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Not to be blunt, but unless you're my counselor (which I don't think you are...my counselor doesn't care enough to be on here!), I really don't care where you think I'd be happier :)</p>
<p>I love ND, I think it's an extraordinary institution. But I think some people on here (and not just this forum, other university forums as well) are sooo wrapped up in the greatness of their school that they lose sight of the fact that no university is perfect.</p>
<p>The OP asked about diversity at ND, and I answered him with specific, proven data and statistics. Many of you pride yourselves on being "open" to opposing viewpoints. Intellectual diversity can "thrive" at ND? Well...not on this forum.</p>
<p>Can anyone contribute any other negatives about ND besides the diversity issues? It might be helpful to disclose other issues. And, as I said in an earlier post, please try to visit if you are considering ND. Granted, your visit will only be a small snapshot of the campus, but it is so very important.</p>
<p>It is freeking cold. All the time. I have been seasonally depressed for like the past 5 months. There is another negative for you. </p>
<p>As we speak there is like 6 inches of snow on the ground.</p>
<p>This is for the girl from my hometown aka vc:
Are there professional rankings for the political orientation of individual colleges and universities? I have never seen any. I have seen in-house institutional evaluations but nothing substantial that covers all colleges. Perhaps you could share a link or citation with us. (The Princeton Review thing doesn't count because we don't know how the survey was conducted, or how each of the categories was weighted. Further 'the use of marijuana and hallucinogens' doesn't indicate anything other than the use of marijuana and hallucinogens. 'the prevalence of religion' doesn't indicate anything about the types of religion represented nor does it strongly correlate to political or social views. 'the popularity of student government' is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned; if you want to know the truth, most Domers think ND student government is a joke. 'the students' level of acceptance of the gay community' is probably the only category that might tell you something, other than 'political persuasion.' Although I have to tell you that there are 'Birkenstock-Wearing, Tree-Hugging, Clove-Smoking Vegetarians.' I am one of them, minus the birkenstock, weed and vegetarian parts. Trees I do love.)</p>
<p>Also your assertion that a majority of ND students are from the midwest or east coast is right. But I fail to see how this is significantly different than any given institution in that region. And hey, if you go to Notre Dame that west coast percentage will increase.</p>
<p>"I'm Catholic. Most Catholics hold the same or very similar views. Don't be arrogant enough to deny it.</p>
<p>You really come off as a very ignorant, arrogant, and self-righteous white girl. I'm going to hope, for the sake of prospective students on this thread, that not all ND students are as pretentious as yourself."</p>
<p>Yeah, about that most Catholics hold similar views thing, well, that's just not true. Maybe you don't get a diversity of Catholic thought in your parish, but if you travel a little bit you will find that Catholic are very different about many things. Notre Dame is a prime example for that. If you think that most Catholics think similarly then you will be impressed by the diversity of thought at Notre Dame.</p>
<p>And the ignorant, arrogant, self-righteous white girl blasts, save that for your enemies at high school please. Especially after you made a pretty ignorant statement yourself.</p>
<p>Finally, we understand that no university is perfect. You don't need to verbally assault people for promoting their alma mater, even if they are ignorant.</p>
<p>A note on diversity to everyone: if your idea of diversity is solely predicated on more than 1 in 4 of your classmates not being white, then don't go to Notre Dame. If you have a more nuanced idea of diversity then Notre Dame may be appropriate.</p>
<p>Other negatives:
It isn't that cold, man up
If you live in Morrissey, Fisher or Carroll you might as well be in prison/on a deserted island
Burger King sucks
NDSP
loud roommates
The band on Football saturdays is too loud and wakes you up
not enough trees
too many blood drives, not enough time to recover between them
too much construction</p>
<p>bpayne: homie G from my hometown what up boy?</p>
<p>If you want the rankings, you find em. Don't like what I posted? Fine, I'm not gonna dig out more for you. </p>
<p>Never said other universities had "better" geographic distribution, simply said that ND didn't have as much as it could, given its great alumni base and academic rep.</p>
<p>Most Catholics hold similar views. True. Most Catholics believe that abortion is wrong, stem-cell research is bad, and gay marriage should not be allowed under any circumstances. Now I'm not going to debate whether those are right or wrong, but Most (not all, MOST) Catholics probably fall under those lines. Honestly, how many "I think gays are completely normal, abortion is a god-given right, let's take stem cells from fetuses to cure Parkinson's" students are there at ND? Again, not debating whether there should be more or less, it's just a fact that there aren't a lot. Not compared to Harvard, UCLA, Berkeley, MIT, etc. Not compared to its "peer" institutions. </p>
<p>And thanks for the travel comment, I've been to many very, very religious countries, probably more than you have. But thanks for offering to form my opinion for me :)</p>
<p>HAHA my enemies in high school....GOOD ONE. I don't have enemies. I still don't get what ignorant statement I made. You choose to ignore rankings, that's your ignorance, not mine.</p>
<p>
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You don't need to verbally assault people for promoting their alma mater, even if they are ignorant.
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Firstly, she never even went there (seriously, parents spend wayyy too much time on here). Secondly, if you think I started the "verbally assaulting" (apparently you have no clue what that word means. No one on here is "verbally assaulting"), you obviously didn't read the beginning of the convo (most don't, it's a little-used skill).</p>
<p>This convo is dead. I've made my point, students and alums have backed me up, and students and parents have also showed their incapacity for intellectual differences by replying in often revolting manners to one poster or another. It's like a race to see who knows more. Wow, more competitive than the Stanford forum, I'm actually kinda impressed. ;)</p>
<p>Good to know ND kids will fight tooth and nail to get a point across though. Guess the "fightin' Irish" came from somewhere.</p>
<p>I'm not sure how respectful the administration is of differences though. I know a student (from a different university-- Northwestern) who was banned on campus for attempting to speak to ND students about their school's policy on some LGBT issues. </p>
<p>"This spring, she participated in the second annual Soulforce Equality Ride, a two-month long tour of Christian colleges and universities with policies that prevent students from coming out as LGBT. As a rider, she co-organized the West Bus’ first stop to the University of Notre Dame, where she and nine others were given lifetime trespassing notices for attempting to speak with students on campus."</p>
<p>"Most Catholics hold similar views. True. Most Catholics believe that abortion is wrong, stem-cell research is bad, and gay marriage should not be allowed under any circumstances. Now I'm not going to debate whether those are right or wrong, but Most (not all, MOST) Catholics probably fall under those lines." </p>
<p>This statement is shockingly ignorant. Take a few moments to peruse the wealth of information at this website <a href="http://pewforum.org/%5B/url%5D">http://pewforum.org/</a> and you will learn that many Catholics support abortion, same-sex marriage, and stem cell research. In fact, the views of Catholics on this issue are pretty much the same as the views of Americans in general. That is a fact, and to claim the contrary reveals either extreme ignorance, extreme prejudice, or both.</p>
<p>Claremarie:You're an obsessive, ignorant parent. I really don't trust your opinion, and therefore your ranting on how "liberal" ND is means pretty much nothing to me. I'm sure you'll counter and say the same about me, in which I will respond that I really don't care what you think. Therefore, we have nothing else to say to each other.</p>
<p>No one is making headway in any direction, and it is therefore certainly not helping the OP. Let the conversation get back to its original intention, "negatives on ND". Because I'm sure there are some negatives besides their lack of diversity. Notre Dame is an amazing, awesome school, and you will take from it whatever you wish. Just like any university. </p>
<p>I've got a different possible negative that perhaps a STUDENT could touch on? ND is said to be fairly "isolated". The town of South Bend definitely isn't a "college town". Is there always plenty to do on campus? Does it ever feel too isolated? Thanks :)</p>
<p>Oh, and Happy Easter to all :)</p>
<p>VC, I am from socal too; where are you from exactly?</p>
<p>bpayne...you are know-it-all-ish. No disrespect intended, but you started at Notre Dame fairly recently. I graduated just last year, and had been there for 4 years, very active while I was there, and I knew several top university administrators (Fr. Jenkins, Provost and V/P Jacobs, and others) very well. I continue to be active as an alum. To assume that because you are currently a student that your opinions are more valuable than those of alums is ludicrous.</p>
<p>Finally, you have to GRADUATE from a school for it to be your alma mater. I have graduated, and can say, that I love Notre Dame. But I also recognize that it has some areas where it has room for major improvements. If I didn't love this school and want it to be the best, I wouldn't care about these things. It's okay to acknowledge areas where we think the place that we love can be better.</p>
<p>Sorry vc08, but you haven't got a clue. Are you Catholic? Do you actually know any Catholics? Why can't you admit that you really had no basis for your ridiculous assertion that most Catholics have similar (and conservative) views on social and political issues? Claremarie is right on. </p>
<p>And PrincessND, you sound equally "know-it-all-ish," no disrespect intended of course. It's wonderful that you have met Fr. Hesburgh, Fr. Jenkins, and other "top university administrators," but so have many other students, and it really gives you no greater insights than anyone else. Your examples were very interesting, but basically they seemed to amount to "everyone didn't agree with my obviously superior and sophisticated opinions! This place is so conservative!"<br>
Sometimes, when people complain about a lack of "diversity," what they really mean is "there aren't enough people who look/think like me."</p>