NESCAC Spoken Here: 2023 version

College Search & Selection
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21

Well, let’s not forget that Bryn Mawr is an all-women’s college. And at the risk of stating the obvious, if they are interested in meeting male students, taking courses at one of the other neighboring colleges is the best bet. The same dynamic is at work at Barnard and Columbia where the only surprise would be were the numbers not even higher.

Similarly, 50-60% of Amherst students finding a course that isn’t offered at Amherst doesn’t strike me as unusual either. That was one of the reasons it was all-in for creating and keeping Hampshire College alive for all these years: Let someone else bear the start-up costs of curriculum innovation; we’ll stand back and watch.

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22

If I understand correctly, Harvey Mudd requires 10 courses in “Humanities, Social Sciences, and Arts” (HSA), which in turn embeds a required first-year course, a 4-course “concentration” (sort of like a mini-minor), and also a distribution requirement. 4 of those HSA courses must be taken in Harvey Mudd’s own HSA Department, but my understanding is it is very common for Harvey Mudd students to fill out most of the rest of their HSA courses at other Claremont Colleges.

As an aside, I found that all interesting because it really is very similar to what most LACs and private non-tech universities would require from their STEM majors. But obviously they are leveraging being in the Claremont Colleges to have an unusual approach to that same basic end.

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23

That may be part of it, and similarly I have long heard jokes about Haverford men taking classes at Bryn Mawr to meet women, although I understand the truth is there is no shortage of actual social mixers including both colleges.

And I also know there are many formalized academic partnerships. Like, my S24 is interested in Classics and Latin. Bryn Mawr is fantastic in these areas, but obviously he cannot go there. However, he can go to Haverford. Haverford itself has an excellent Classics department, but they also have a long list of co-programs with Bryn Mawr, including a 4+1 program where you can get a Masters in Classics from Bryn Mawr. Bryn Mawr is also more focused on archaeology and museum studies, so Haverford students can major/minor in Archaeology, or minor in Museum Studies, at Bryn Mawr. They also co-host various Classic events, and so on.

Just playing around, Bryn Mawr in turn apparently has 12 overall “Bi-Co” major and/or minors, where Bryn Mawr students can similarly major/minor in things that Haverford does–Astronomy, Comparative Literature, Dance (minor only), East Asian Languages and Cultures (apparently an actual Bi-Co department), Education, Fine Arts, Health (minor), Music, Neuroscience, Religion, Statistics (minor), and Visual Arts (minor).

I guess my point is there is a lot of deliberate academic cooperation going on, including what appears to be deliberate attempts to specialize a bit more within each college given the other college is available for various majors/minors.

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24

Oh, and to tie this back to NESCAC–the Five Colleges system also offers various “certificate” programs, which more or less seem to serve a similar role to minors, as well as a few actual joint majors.

Again, I think it is interesting the degree to which these consortiums seem to be really coordinating in various areas, not just letting students cross-register on an ad hoc basis.

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25

Or, perhaps S24 can just shop around for LACs - co-ed ones - that have the courses and subjects that interest him. The NESCACs have been uniformly co-ed for nearly a half-century and one of them, Wesleyan, has been fairly successful at attaining a size approximating two small-sized LACs.

The contrast with Amherst, its Little Three athletic rival for well over a century, is instructive. Wesleyan’s latest New England college accreditation report, with three NESCAC colleges represented on the evaluation team, is replete with references to Wesleyan’s long history of curricular innovation:

The Wesleyan curriculum, taught by a faculty of teacher-scholars, is characterized by innovation
and interdisciplinarity. By constantly creating cutting-edge majors, programs, colleges, and
centers, Wesleyan fosters an intellectually vibrant community. Students (and faculty) follow
their unique passions and interests, yet together they create a stimulating intellectual
environment (p.10)

In keeping with its spirit of innovation, Wesleyan continuously adds new areas of study for its
students. In recent years, this has included new minors in Human Rights Advocacy and Global
Engagement, Chemistry, and two course clusters in Sustainability and Environmental Justice and
Asian American Studies. The university also approved a new interdisciplinary College of
Education Studies (CES), which now offers a linked major in addition to the existing minor in
Education Studies. (P.12)

Projection: Wesleyan is currently developing or considering a number of curricular initiatives,
including a new College of Design and Engineering and a new interdisciplinary College of
Computational Studies. It is considering an expansion of the writing fellows program in the
Shapiro Writing Center. The university is also focused on developing a number of pilot
programs to expand access to the Wesleyan experience to a wider and more diverse group of
learners. (P.20)

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26

Sure.

But the fundamental issue as I see it is the unpredictability of where his interests may take him by the end of college. Many people switch primary majors, some multiple times. Some end up interested in different areas of concentration within their major than originally planned. Some get interested in new minors, or second majors. And on and on.

So whatever he thinks he might be interested in as a rising HS senior is, to me, not necessarily all that predictive of what he will be interested in as, say, a rising college senior.

And in fact, a lot of these LACs specifically encourage all that. You typically don’t apply into a specific major. You may not even be allowed to declare a major until something like the end of your second year. They may have relatively open curriculums that encourage exploration outside of your intended major at whatever depth you end up being interested in doing. And so on.

As I see it, that’s great! But it does lead to at least a hypothetical worry–what if you do all this work to see what LACs seem to have plenty of courses you would want to take based on what you are thinking as a HS student, and all of that is mooted by your changing interests in college?

Now, of course these very good LACs tend to have pretty good depth in anything they offer. But given their size, they can’t really cover everything in as much depth as, say, a private university with a much bigger faculty AND graduate students who teach (which is not necessarily great, but it allows for even more course depth).

So, as I see it, these consortiums backstop that issue. Maybe you will find all the courses you want at your college, but maybe your interests will go in an unexpected direction, and your college will end up not quite having all the courses you would want. But hopefully one of the co-colleges will, and indeed it seems apparent they are often pretty intentional about covering each other in various ways.

And then you get all the other nice things about an LAC, without having to be concerned about this potential issue.

Wesleyan, has been fairly successful at attaining a size approximating two small-sized LACs.

Again, I am not suggesting the consortium model is the only right model. Still, Wesleyan has something like 3000 undergrads. The 4 LACs in Five Colleges have about 7200 (Smith, by the way, is closest in size to Wesleyan at about 2500), and then UMass-Amherst adds about 24000 undergrads.

That’s not to say Amherst or Smith or so on are clearly a better choice than Wesleyan. But these are different situations, and some people could rationally prefer one or the other, for this and other reasons.

In the end, I am fond of the saying there are many roads to Dublin (and the poem by Tomás Ó Cárthaigh). The road to a great “liberal arts” college experience, and excellent placement for whatever comes next, could go through a research university with a liberal arts college, a liberal arts college that is part of a consortium, or a liberal arts college that is largely independent. And the best road for one is not necessarily the best road for another, and that is OK.

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27

That’s certainly the case. Not everyone wants the constant bus or jitney travel; some people may actually appreciate the sense of community of a stand-alone LAC; some people are looking for fit. I’ve read hundreds of “Reasons My child Crossed Off” Middlebury, Williams, Bowdoin and Hamilton posts over the years and the lack of being in the same town as UVM, UMass/Lowell or SUNY/Albany was never one of them.

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28

I mean, that would be a really strange thing to say.

But while it is still early days yet, I will not be encouraging my S24 to necessarily apply to all those LACs. It is entirely up to him, but I think it would be fine to narrow his list. And maybe he will mix it up with some consortium schools and some non-consortium schools–that may depend a bit on whether he starts really getting into LACs, or mostly prefers universities, for multiple reasons.

But I doubt he would ever say the lack of a consortium which included an R1 university was an automatic dealbreaker for an LAC. It would just (potentially) be one factor among many he could consider when forming a short list of his favorite colleges (of different selectivity levels).

29

I’m trying to find your original post (and I note that you joined CC about a week ago), but is it safe to assume, neither he nor you have put attending a LAC per se at the top of your preferences?

31

I get what you’re saying, and there are definitely situations where getting access to a foreign language, or a particular music ensemble, or arts class could be really important to a student. I’m guessing, though, that given requirements to do a certain number of classes in one’s home institution and the need to meet prerequisites for higher level classes that most students do more “dabbling” in their visits (unless the schools, like Haverford and BMC have intentional co-curricular offerings) than full commitment to a major they hadn’t planned.

There’s also something to be said for less choice. Deciding to take a class in something of meh interest because you like the prof or because of a prof’s reputation can be really mind-expanding. (Yiddish Literature at Tufts, oh my, who would have thought?!) If you’re committed to exploring and curiosity, you can do that with 100 choices each semester or 500 – because you’ll only be able to take 4!

There are lots of kids out there whose college education was very much shaped by a seemingly random choice, whether a freshman seminar or choosing a class because it fit into a schedule or fulfilled a requirement.

Semesters/years off campus also meet a lot of the need to meet different people and change scenery, profs, classroom experiences, classes, etc. Don’t rule that out either.

No doubt, a consortium can expand offerings, and as a buyer, that sounds great. But much like going to a restaurant with a 10 page menu, you can only eat one meal!

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32

Correct. Generally speaking I would say he is mostly cross-shopping liberal arts colleges at universities that are at least somewhat known for being relatively undergraduate focused, or otherwise more LAC-like in their college. His school counselor and I, though, have been pointing out to him maybe he should also be looking at actual LACs. And I think he is potentially receptive to that idea.

Whether he will ever form a strong preference for one approach or the other, I don’t know. I think it is possible he will apply to a mix of favorite LACs and universities, which I think would be fine. Or maybe it will mostly go one direction or another. We shall see.

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33

Yes, the actual cross-major thing seems less a component of the Five Colleges system than the Bi-Co system. They do have a few such majors, but it does seem like in Five Colleges it is mostly just something you would do for one or two select classes, or at most I would call the “concentration” level (if at all, of course). I note that is consistent with what I was told on our Amherst tour.

Not to be argumentative, but that analogy could cut both ways, no?

I mean really, you are having like–eight meals? More? Depends on what you think of as analogous to a meal, but I am thinking whatever course schedule you set at a given time.

Because the really critical bit, to me, is that you don’t order all at once. You try out one set of dishes (courses). That informs what you order next. And so on. I get that unlimited choice is not necessarily ideal, but I also think academic passions, like food passions, can get really specific in some cases.

OK, so one person might work their way around the menu and be perfectly satisfied. Another person might get super into spicy fish dishes and–run out of them on that menu. But as it turns out, there is a restaurant consortium and they will actually let you keep your regular place at that restaurant, but order a spicy fish dish from the restaurant next door if you so choose . . . .

Again, I am trying to avoid suggesting one of these models is inherently better or worse. But really, it seems to me the “stand-alone” model is actually a bit more like a restaurant that tries to put everything you might want over many meals on just their menu. The consortium colleges, at least a bit, can have their kitchens specialize in fewer dishes, knowing the other kitchens in the consortium can backstop them if a customer wants to order something off their menu.

But there are very much potential virtues to the stand-alone model too. There are many roads to Dublin.

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34

“I think you’re going to need a bigger boat.” Meaning, it just doesn’t sound like you’re really in the market for a small college.

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35

We’ve only seen one so far, and that went well enough we are going to see more.

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36

Nothing wrong with starting alphabetically. :grin:

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37

That’s all well and good, but in my experience, physical proximity and ease of moving about from campus to campus is the main differentiator. I would suppose that’s why the BMC/Haverford part of the Quaker consortium is used much more robustly than either college with Swat. It’s just a little further away to make it a hassle.

I think the Claremont consortium is #1 for that reason. You have very complimentary colleges all within a walk of one another. To me, that’s a consortium. The 5CC is spread out other than Amherst and UMass. I’ve heard it said over and over again that’s what puts a bit of a damper on the utility of it. I’m sure there are exceptions.

My D was at Smith for a year. Her impression, which is better than mine, was that Smith and Mount Holyoke students didn’t use it that often. Amherst is close to UMass; but I wonder how many, and how often, Amherst kids spend their precious time at Amherst taking classes at an altogether different college offering a very different experience.

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38

Of course, I can’t be in your son’s head, but if this is a legitimate worry, I’d think about a mid-sized university. There are plenty of them. Gunning for a school like Amherst, which is hard enough, with the idea that you may need a plan B in case Amherst doesn’t have your field of interest seems like the wrong approach. Just one person’s opinion. An Ivy or a Patriot League school may be a better option.

I think you’re reading too much into it. @circuitrider is a senior poster here who has an encyclopedic grasp of the history and evolution of this band of schools we loosely refer to as ‘LACs’. I’ve followed up on his posts many times to confirm this or that factoid and have yet to find him off the mark. I have seen him steer inquiring prospects away from Wesleyan, his alma mater, as frequently as he’s recommended it to others. There are, indeed, a handful of posters on CC who zealously advocate for their favorite school come what may. He is definitely not one of those. With that said, he knows as well as anyone that Amherst hardly needs anyone to nudge it forward; it stands on its own merits quite nicely.

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39

So universities have their downsides too, of course. Even the more undergraduate-focused ones are obviously not AS dedicated to undergraduates as LACs. Very good LACs tend to have per capita placement records that are matched only by a true handful of university colleges, if even that. LACs tend to have really robust club sports per capita. Opportunities to work for professors may be more robust at LACs due to the lack of grad students. And so on.

And even universities have their depth limits. At our Yale visit, an issue about languages came up, and the guide explained she knew someone who wanted to study a language that was only offered at Columbia, so they helped make that happen. Obviously at an R1 university, generally the odds of that happening are lower. But lower is not impossible.

So in my view, with all these competing pros and cons, many of which are sliding scales and not strict dichotomies, there is not necessarily going to be a universal answer to the “mid-sized university” versus “LAC” question. Some LACs may be closer to a given individual’s ideal than others, but some universities may also be closer to that individual’s ideal than others. And I personally think if my S24 ends up applying to a mix of both, that will not be at all irrational.

FYI, I think the other post of mine you are quoting got flagged and is under review, and I have no problem with the mods doing whatever they think best. So I probably should not comment further, but I do want to note I was not in any way intending to call out anyone in particular.

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40

By the way, Amherst obviously endorses the idea that Five Colleges is a potentially valuable aspect of Amherst. The Associate Dean who gave the information session we attended spent a good chunk of the academic portion of his presentation on it, our tour guide brought it up, it is in a lot of their written material . . . .

I realize we don’t need to take their word for it, and that it is fine to have independent opinions on how important it really might be. Still, I would suggest maybe it is a little strange to suggest it is inherently wrong to value something about an LAC that the LAC itself believes you could rationally value.

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