NESCAC Spoken Here

[MWolf]

@nickgaj

I know this is late but I was looking at rankings and found that the Forbes 2019 ranking seemed pretty interesting. Here is there ranking (FYI this ranking is based on ALL Universities, not just LAC’s)

19: Williams

26: Bowdoin

28: Amherst

34: Tufts

36: Middlebury

39: Bates

40: Wesleyan

59: Hamilton

75: Colby

109: Trinity

128: Conn

Aside from the many other issues with ranking (the importance of the SES of the students, word of mouth reputation among admins, etc), ranking LACs along with research universities is comparing the metaphorical potatoes and bananas.

Aside from size, LACs, research universities, teaching universities, directionals, etc, each have a very different mission. The main and almost only mission of a LAC is teaching, while a research university is half teaching, half research, except if it also has a medical school, in which case, medical treatment is part of the mission. All pubic universities have outreach as part of their mission, and land grant universities all have agricultural extensions as part of their mission, as well as things like Geological and Natural History surveys. And so forth, and so on.

The Forbes ranking has a couple of additional issues, among them, the fact that they rank based on two very skewed data sets for salary information (Payscale and IPEDS), and, for student satisfaction, they rely on Niche. Also, for “American Leaders” they only look at business and political leaders, ignoring any other category.

While the last is reasonable, because it is Forbes, and those are the people who read Forbes, the first two factors, which account for 40% of the rank, are highly unreliable, meaning that the entire ranking system is unreliable.

[circuitrider]

Ranking Wesleyan is like trying to take a snapshot of the inside of a church: You’re always going to miss something.

[Dawkins324]

Last year, I spent the entire summer visiting colleges - including all eleven NESCAC schools.

I also marshaled a tremendous amount of data to analyze these schools from a variety of perspectives, most notably: (1) selectivity/reputation, (2) quality of education, (3) quality of life.

Viewed holistically, here are my rankings:

1. Williams
2. Middlebury
3. Amherst
4. Bowdoin
5. Tufts
6. Colby
7. Hamilton
8. Wesleyan
9. Bates
10. Trinity
11. Connecticut

Observations:

1.) Princeton Review does an excellent job ranking colleges on “quality of education.” The only schools in the country with [99] ratings are Williams, Middlebury, and West Point.

2.) If you had never seen college rankings, visited all the schools, and were asked which school was ranked #1…you would probably answer Middlebury. However, since Williams is perpetually ranked #1 and has a significantly larger endowment, it has some distinct competitive advantages.

3.) Bowdoin is an amazing place…but the campus is tiny. Extremely tiny. This is somewhat offset by its very nice college town (Brunswick).

4.) Tufts isn’t really a NESCAC and should probably be compared with other research universities.

5.) If you’re an athlete, bump Colby up a spot. They just built an absolutely ridiculous athletic facility.

6.) Rankings are sticky. It’s fascinating to see how they evolve over time, and very difficult to make predictions. Here’s an example. Connecticut is almost always placed in the lowest tier of NESCAC schools, which makes sense. But…let’s compare it with Bates. Connecticut has a nicer campus, a much better campus site (sandwiched between a massive arboretum and a major river in sight of Long Island Sound halfway between NYC and Boston), and a very similar sized endowment. It’s located 10 minutes from Mystic, which beats Lewiston hands down. My prediction is that Conn eventually overtakes Bates/Trinity due to these structural advantages.

7.) It’s notable that Williams/Amherst saw applications fall meaningfully in 2023 while applications increased at Middlebury/Bowdoin. Based on my college visits and analytical ‘deep dives’, I think Amherst might eventually lose its seemingly permanent #2 ranking to these NESCAC rivals.

[circuitrider]

@Dawkins324

1.) Princeton Review does an excellent job ranking colleges on “quality of education.” The only schools in the country with ratings are Williams, Middlebury, and West Point.

For as long as anyone can remember, Wesleyan University has received the most external funding for research of the non-Tufts LACs and is tied with Amherst, if you factor it out on a per capita basis. It’s also the only NESCAC with a nationally recognized academic department (Film Studies) and is the only NESCAC to win an Apker Physics prize for undergraduate research against R1 universities since the prize was divided into two tracks - one for doctoral and another for non-doctoral granting institutions. So, what’s all this about “quality of education”?

[NiceUnparticularMan]

Next up, an empirical ranking of artisanal gelato flavors . . . .

Meaning part of the point of these LACs is to give you a more personalized college experience than you would get at a larger private university (let alone a much larger public university). It is rather defeating the purpose to then try to rank them as if they were substitutable commodities.

Of course one of the “flavor profiles” you might care about is placement among certain employers or graduate/professional schools. Even then, you need to be cautious about controlling for self-selection, internal competition, and so on, such that the road less travelled by people with similar ambitions is not always a worse road.

And typically no highly-selective LAC is actually bad at placement in any field they offer, they are just different flavors of good–as long as you do really well there in whatever you end up studying. And given that, there is a lot of practical wisdom in just choosing an LAC where you think you would find your courses interesting and your overall experience a happy one, because interested and happy people tend to do better.

But in the end, if you have multiple highly-selective LACs that you feel really excited about attending, and to which you actually get admitted, and you want to break that tie with some generic ranking–OK. But my two cents is that should be the last consideration, not the first.

[prezbucky]

I mean, I think all of the NESCAC schools are prestigious. Maybe Trinity and Connecticut College are a bit less prestigious than the rest, but what’s more important than prestige – much more important – is quality. And these schools are all reputed to be excellent academically. In addition, all present their students with awesome opportunities, advising, and career counseling.

I would not use prestige to differentiate these if I were a kid planning applications or evaluating multiple acceptances. Rather, I would use fit variables like cost, location/environment, available majors, and curriculum to identify the right one(s). If Connecticut College is a better fit than Williams, so be it – choose Conn College.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

By the way, this seems like a handy place to quickly note that I think for some people (like my S24, in fact), there is some concern about whether an isolated small LAC might end up feeling limiting eventually. Many people end up loving the experience anyway, but I can understand the concern. So my suggestion was he might want to check out LACs in areas where there are a lot of other colleges/universities, and specifically the ones in official “consortiums” that allow course-sharing, have shuttle buses, and so on.

It turns out he currently isn’t interested in California schools, so for now the Claremont Colleges are out. But the “Quaker Consortium” in the Philly area and the “Five Colleges Consortium” in Western MA are both live options.

Relevant to this thread, the Five Colleges include Amherst, and also Smith, Mount Holyoke, Hampshire, and UMass-Amherst (to me it is an attraction to have a full university in the mix, and Hampshire is an interesting alternative-format college that was actually created by the others). So not that everyone should value this, but that is one distinguishing feature of Amherst, and that is also a list of non-NESCAC LACs that I would think some might want to consider.

[mdmommy4]

Colby is ranked way too highly here. It belongs below Wesleyan IMO. Colby has gamed rankings by artificially inflating application numbers. It has one of the worst locations in the NESCAC. It’s athletic facilities are beautiful but that is relevant to 30-40% of students, and is arguably much less important than the quality of the student body, etc.

[circuitrider]

@NiceUnparticularMan

and that is also a list of non-NESCAC LACs that I would think some might want to consider.

And that, of course, is indicative of the degree to which the term, “NESCAC” has assumed a place in the lexicon as a sort of shorthand for small, distinctive, residential colleges. So much that we occasionally have to pause and remind ourselves that there are non-NESCAC small colleges that are also very good.

[prezbucky]

This isn’t news to you, I’m sure, but for the sake of others reading this thread:

NESCAC has become to LACs what the Ivy League is to universities – synonymous with large endowments per student, top-notch academics, strong need-based financial aid, and selectivity.

And, just like the Ivies in the university world, there are many other top-notch LACs that do not reside in the NESCAC.

So while all NESCAC schools are high-quality, not all high-quality LACs are in the NESCAC.

Heck, you could form a couple more NESCACs from the LAC ranks –

Pomona
Swarthmore
Haverford
Wellesley
Vassar
Carleton
Wash & Lee
Claremont McKenna
Bryn Mawr
Smith
Davidson
Colgate…

[merc81]

@Dawkins324

Princeton Review does an excellent job ranking colleges on “quality of education.” The only schools in the country with ratings are Williams, Middlebury, and West Point.

While the Princeton Review offers an “Academic Rating,” it does not, I believe, offer a “quality of education” ranking. The closest match for this may be “Best Classroom Experience,” in which the NESCACs are represented by Williams, Hamilton and Bowdoin.

Best Colleges for Classroom Experience | The Princeton Review

[happy1]

They are ALL excellent LACs. IMO what you accomplish during your college years will be way more important than which of these colleges you attend.

Instead of rankings, I would focus on the schools that are academic, social, and financial fits for you.

[cquin85]

@prezbucky

NESCAC has become to LACs what the Ivy League is to universities – synonymous with large endowments per student, top-notch academics, strong need-based financial aid, and selectivity.

I agree. NESCAC has become a marketing success story, and it’s only just starting to gain traction on the west coast. It’s building though.

[cquin85]

@Dawkins324

Last year, I spent the entire summer visiting colleges - including all eleven NESCAC schools.

I also marshaled a tremendous amount of data to analyze these schools from a variety of perspectives, most notably: (1) selectivity/reputation, (2) quality of education, (3) quality of life.

It doesn’t show in your post.

[cquin85]

@kim12345678ng

Can you rank all the NESCAC colleges based on their reputation, prestige and name recognition by employers (in the business industry)? Also, which campus has the biggest LGBTQ+ community and is best known for being gay-friendly?

I also would like to know which ones are known for being preppy and laid-back?

It’s a tall order, and the list will vary greatly depending on what one thinks is important. You mentioned business, which is a very broad term. If I narrow that down to finance, which also comprises a broad category of businesses, I’d say that Williams and Middlebury are your best bets. Other NESCACs will get you there, too, including Amherst and Hamilton, but Midd and Williams have worn really well traveled paths to Wall Street. If you’re talking about consulting, you can bring in a few more names. Wesleyan, for example, tends to place well in the consulting firm world, as do some of the others.

I’m staying away from the arts, and the natural and social science areas, because, again, you mentioned business. If you want a broader response, maybe indicate so.

I think they are all LGBTQ friendly and would hesitate to burn too much gas on making a differentiation among them on that score. If you think a strong New England bro culture is anathema to LGBTQ friendliness, and some people do, then I’d say Midd has a rep for strong bro culture. Some would say Williams does too; and I can also vouch for the fact that, despite its general reputation for being super far left, Wesleyan also maintains a pocket of bro on its campus. I have to imagine Trinity scores high on the bro scale as well. Some people say Amherst can be snooty, though I’ve not experienced it myself and don’t know how that would translate to LGBTQ if it were true. If I had to pick one, though, I’d throw Bowdoin, Wes, Williams (despite W & W having some component of bro) and Conn, and maybe Bates, in a hat and draw one out at random.

As for laid back, also hard to say. I think there are pockets of intensity at all of them, but perhaps through reputation the least laid back of them would likely be Williams. I’ve heard it can be an intense place. But I don’t know where the most laid back of them exists. If you could measure it, probably one of the Maine schools … Bates or Bowdoin maybe. IDK. I’m more comfortable saying it’s probably not Williams and then remaining agnostic on the rest. Reflexively one might list Wesleyan, but kids there tend to be strongly opinionated and deliberate about what they’re doing and why, so I interpret that to be somewhat inconsistent with “laid back”.

[prezbucky]

Would you say that Colby has some semblance of bro culture? I’ve always thought of Colby being similar to Dartmouth in vibe and environment – are you able to confirm/deny/revise?

[LurkerJoe]

Also like the Ivy League, the NESCAC is really just an athletic conference. Don’t forget the A stands for Athletics.

[cquin85]

At least among the Maine schools, yes, I do. But the school I most associate with comparability to Dartmouth, and I know I’m not alone in this, is Middlebury. This is despite recent speaker protests (at Midd), which would imply a PC liberal component to the school that one would not expect to find at Dartmouth.

These are gross generalizations, of course, but I associate with Midd a strain of the politically independent, outdoorsy rugged individualist who is somewhat sympathetic to classic libertarian views. I also view Midd as having an overall demeanor of being unapologetically elite and happy to have what it has, whether others want to call it privilege or not. Of course, I’m drawing from my own travels, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

Having said that, Midd killed the last of its frats about 20 years ago (I believe) and Wesleyan, which I view as clearly left of Midd, is still trying to finish off its last two or three. So what do you make of that?

I also have to say Colby is the NESCAC with which I’ve had the least interactions. Sometimes I almost forget about it.

[merc81]

Unfortunately, recent replies written for the benefit of the OP, who created this topic in 2020, are unlikely to be relevant at this time.

[cquin85]

Yeah, but we’re having a good time, and NESCAC is always a topic of interest on CC.