New list, your thoughts would be great!

College Search & Selection
1

<p>So my son was upset that we didn't have more Ivy League schools on his list. Unfortunately he is under the impression that those are the "good" schools. (Thanks a lot US News and World Report!) I told him to do some serious research because after all the reading I've done here and elsewhere, I have learned that those schools are not necessarily the best at all, and that they have some serious downsides! (Plus, for Chris, wintery weather is a big downside, with his asthma.) Nevertheless, I agreed to pay for him to apply to a few of them, just to see what they come back with. Meanwhile, I will try to get him reading and researching so he can get a better idea of what he should be aiming for, which in my opinion is a good school in a location he likes (sun!), where he might get some merit aid. Below is the new list we agreed upon; I would love it if anyone has any comments...do you see any problems with the list?</p>

<p>His stats again are:</p>

<p>GPA: 3.94 unweighted/4.46 weighted
SAT: 720 reading, 800 math, 730 writing
(He is taking 2 SAT subject tests on October 11 in Math2 and Spanish, should do well)
Current classes: AP Calculus B/C, AP Spanish V/IV, AP English Lit/Comp, AP Psychology, Anatomy and Physiology
Extracurricular: Varsity Soccer, Varsity Wrestling, Varsity Track, Prefect (student leader at his boarding school), School Tour Committee, Math Team, Debate Team, Creative Writing club, Head Writer for the Yearbook club. He an aspiring writer and has written a 250-page novel, he is fluent in Spanish, and was part of a teenage community volunteer service in our town for years. And we are residents of Arizona.</p>

<p>The NEW LIST:</p>

<p>Stanford (his top choice, applying regular decision)
U of Miami (need merit aid here, applying early action)
U of Denver (need merit aid here, applying early action)
Barrett Honors College at ASU (safety school, applying early action to get maximum merit aid)
Colorado College (a good match academically and geographically, but do they have any merit aid? We need it.)
Duke (super-reach, applying regular decision)
Princeton (super-reach, applying regular decision)
Yale (super-reach, applying regular decision)
Harvard (super-reach, applying regular decision)</p>

<p>I personally would leave the last three off the list altogether, but this is his life so I agreed to pay for him to apply. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! </p>

<p>Thanks,
Chris' Mom :)</p>

2

<p>CC has some merit aid. <a href=“Scholarships - Colorado College”>http://www.coloradocollege.edu/admission/financialaid/scholarships/&lt;/a&gt;
Would he be happy attending ASU? I wonder with someone who seems to be bitten by the “prestige bug”. If he won’t be happy there then it should come off the list replaced by a school he would be happy to attend and that you can afford. </p>

3

<p>Thanks Erin’s Dad! I know, I was thinking the same thing. :frowning: I thought we were on the same page, but he really surprised me today with his reaction. It’s like he thinks getting into a fancy college is the goal, rather than the college being a means to a good education, that will take him to the real goal which is law school. Sigh…I tried to explain to him that there are lots of great schools out there and what matters is getting good grades during your undergraduate years, as well as the affordability and fit of the school. But he’s being kind of child-like and not really understanding all the issues involved. I need to get him reading and researching and I think he will start to understand…at least I hope he will!</p>

<p>In any case, I think we need to leave ASU on the list because he’s not at all open to other safety schools like U of Alabama, and it’s probably the best safety I can come up with. Out of the 3 state schools its the best fit for him, and ASU is likely to give him a good deal. He is just really stuck on the Ivies, and I don’t think his chances are great there, plus I have no idea what they would offer him in the way of aid. (Our financial situation is kind of weird, so we might not get much or any need-based aid.) </p>

4

<p>If you cannot get him to ignore rankings altogether, tell him to look at student and alumni satisfaction rankings, which look much different from USNews’s and Forbes’s lists…</p>

<p>For example, this collection of rankings, in which Rice University and liberal arts colleges like Sewanee, Centre, Kalamazoo, Grinnell, and Morehouse trounce Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, and all of the Ivies except for Princeton and Yale. </p>

<p>(<a href=“The Alumni Factor: A Revolution in College Rankings (2013-2014 Edition) - The Alumni Factor - Google Books”>The Alumni Factor: A Revolution in College Rankings (2013-2014 Edition) - The Alumni Factor - Google Books) </p>

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<p>Thanks, that’s a cool site!</p>

6

<p>First thought – make it clear to your son how hard it is to get into Stanford, Duke, Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. He needs to understand that it is not at all unlikely that every single one might reject him and very unlikely that all will take him. Show him the statistics at US NEWS (especially since he loves their rankings). All those schools have admit rates of under 10%. None offers merit aid, only need based aid.</p>

<p>Second thought – you still need a longer list, given that five of the nine are elites. Why is Tulane now off the list? It would offer outstanding merit aid. Kenyon College has one of the best writing programs in the country and offers excellent aid.</p>

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<p>Good thoughts thanks. I kind of feel like ASU is our only true safety school and while they are almost certain to accept him and offer a decent financial package (even full price would be affordable since we are AZ residents), I would like him to have more choices if he is rejected everywhere else, or if we can’t afford any other offers. </p>

<p>The reasons we took Tulane off the table were that he was just not very excited about the school when we looked into it, and it seemed like the merit aid was dependent on us really buttering up the school with flowery essays about how much he loves Tulane and how excited he would be to attend. It just didn’t feel sincere since he was not at all enthusiastic. U of Miami has some merit aid as well, and he is much more enthusiastic about that school, so we decided to give it a shot there instead, and we are even going visit this weekend. </p>

<p>Since Chris’ scores are reasonably high, I am hoping he will be accepted at ASU, U of Miami and U of Denver, however I have no idea how much merit aid he would get at the last two, so realistically ASU could end up being our only option.</p>

<p>If he were to be accepted at any of the more elite schools, we would have to look at the net cost of attendance and make a choice, but I am fully aware that there is a very good chance he could be rejected at all those schools.</p>

<p>So yeah, ASU is the only real safety on the list! However it is a very good safety and I <em>think</em> he is willing to attend it comes to that. I need to confirm that though, and I need to make sure he will feel ok about it. Right now it seems like he might feel like a failure if he doesn’t get into one of the Ivies. :(</p>

8

<p>

Almost certainly he will get accepted at all three, but merit aid is clearly the question. I recommend doubling that list of safeties and matches. Wouldn’t he be deflated to set his mind on Stanford, but end up at ASU? World of difference there. </p>

<p>Not only will he feel like a failure, he will feel foolish for not having a decent back up plan. I personally saw this happen twice this past spring. Two young men completely shut out of the Ivies. One ended up at the University of Alabama. Hard lesson in humility.</p>

<p>Definitely need to look into Kenyon for the writing program.
<a href=“Creative Writing | Kenyon College”>Creative Writing | Kenyon College;

<p>Seems to me that most writers belong at liberal arts colleges. Plus that is where some of the best merit aid is. Many schools will actually give you a merit scholarship quote through their “net price calculator.” They ask for GPA plus SAT and ACT scores. You might want to run one on Colorado College.</p>

<p>Have him look at the US NEWS liberal arts rankings:
<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I hear you on Tulane. Yes, they really do want you to love the school. Too bad he doesn’t.</p>

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<p>I know of someone who had his head fixed on ivy league schools for several years but ended up ($$) at a Top 100 and was bummed as heck about it. But it was only one semester at this school and he was finding all kinds of advantages to being one of the Big Dogs on the block, of leading from the front of his courses. It surprised him because even at his high school he was never the alpha or beta, but in many of his college classes he was because he worked really really hard (maybe, to some extent, to prove he didn’t belong there).</p>

<p>Is there any chance your S, outside of this prestige college fixation, is a more flexible person than you’re thinking he might be? Might he find a happy place at an ASU, UMiami, CC, or UDenver? They’re darn good schools that have been making happy, well educated students for a long time.</p>

10

<p>Are you familiar with the Western Undergraduate Exchange program? There is a reciprocity agreement which will hold tuition to 150% of in-state tuition at the following schools (since you are from a member state, AZ): <a href=“http://wue.wiche.edu/search_results.jsp?searchType=all”>http://wue.wiche.edu/search_results.jsp?searchType=all&lt;/a&gt; This may open your universe of safety schools, since tuition is the lion’s share of the total COA.</p>

11

<p>I agree: make him add 2-3 schools with admission rates in the 30-50% bracket.
Use the USNWR LAC rankings.
He WILL get rejected by a bunch of his “top choices” and may very well be rejected by all his top choices. He’s a great student but not such a stand out that he’d be an “of course we want him”. He’ll be competing against thousands just as bright and accomplished as he is. He may think he’s ready for the rejection but… who is?
There are plenty of excellent schools (including prestigious ones) that exist between HYP and ASU Barrett.
What about Occidental? Pitzer? Macalester? Wheaton (MA)?
Sure, his classmates have never heard of these schools, but “those who matter” (grad schools, employers), have.</p>

12

<p>Thanks guys, this is great advice. I’ll check out Occidental and Kenyon and continue to research possibilities. We definitely need to add more safeties and matches to the list. I agree he is a good student with good scores, but he does not have enough of a hook for me to feel confident that he will be accepted at any of the highly selective schools, and even if one or two did accept him, I really have no idea if we could afford it. It doesn’t hurt to apply and cross our fingers, but we need a better plan!</p>

<p>Being from Arizona, he has always been a big fish at pretty much every school since the state averages are not super high. I don’t think he quite understands that nearly all of the thousands of applicants to Stanford and the other schools like it have high school records and test scores that are every bit as good, or better, than his, and many of them have very compelling essays and extracurriculars. I would hate for his only choice to be ASU, even though I personally would love to have him there. He needs to be happy with his decision.</p>

<p>As a parent I’m trying to get a feeling for whether it will be better to keep him in a less challenging environment where he can easily be a top student (like ASU) or whether it would be better for him to be in a highly competitive environment with super-smart kids. The thing is, he has to spend four years at college, so I want to make sure he doesn’t get bored/depressed/burned out and I worry about this a little with ASU. One thing I like about U of Miami is I think it would be very interesting and stimulating environment and he would still be a top student there. However, I can’t predict what merit aid they will offer and we certainly cannot pay anywhere close to full price.</p>

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<p>what about schools that are generous with kids with his stats: Tulane, Rhodes, Pitt, Emory, etc. that are somewhere between Duke and Denver?</p>

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<p>I’m not quite sure whether you believe this or you are using this argument to sell your son on lesser colleges, or to protect him from a likely long list of rejections, or whether the merit aid is an essential need that you have to be able to afford college. My sense is that most older teenagers would react very negatively to such logic.</p>

<p>My opinion is that unless money is a major issue for you that applying to a broader mix of universities, including the Ivies, Stanford and Duke, is the better choice. I would trust your son’s instincts for wanting to get into the very top universities. I’m not sure I understand your perception of the “serious downsides”. From the list of high reach universities it would seem that your son prefers larger universities. It’s hard to see how Colorado College fits in the same breath as Stanford or Yale. I recommend that you have him look at mid-size universities in the 20-40 ranking in US News and World Reports. These for example include universities such as Georgetown, Vanderbilt, etc. And yes he will receive many rejections and that can be very discouraging for a while. But he would have tried. </p>

<p>Your son has potentially compelling sports extracurriculars. Perhaps some of them would resonate with the high end universities. He may also want to consider applying ED to one of the higher end universities, ideally one with an ED acceptance rate higher than 20%. Applying EA to Stanford is too much of a gamble (5% or so acceptance rate) unless his sports extracurriculars are of interest to them. He can always apply to Stanford RD.</p>

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<p>There is a book that you may be interested in, “Looking Beyond The Ivy League” by Loren Pope. He is the author of “Colleges That Change Lives”.</p>

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<p>For a great safety take a look at Miami University of Ohio (hey, he can apply to two Miami’s, right?). He very well might get a full tuition scholarship. Definitely would get at least half tuition. Take a look at their merit scholarship webpage.
<a href=“http://miamioh.edu/admission/merit-grid/index.html”>http://miamioh.edu/admission/merit-grid/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If you decide that Kenyon looks good, you could visit Miami too if you journey to Ohio.</p>

<p>Ranked a lot higher than ASU, by both US News and Forbes. Well known for excellent teaching, and a lovely campus.</p>

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<p>Wow, you all have really given me a lot to think about…To tell the truth, I’m rather lost. The fact that Chris’ test scores and grades are rather high is making me feel a huge amount of pressure to do right by him, but I’m not sure how to best do that. This board and all of you are enormously helpful, so thank you very much!</p>

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<p>I guess it’s a combination of all the things you mentioned. The downsides that I can see are high pressure (Chris tends to get stressed out), extreme competitiveness that he’s not used to, cold weather in most locations, and possibly great expense since I have no idea what kind of aid we might get. And I have read in a few threads that going to an Ivy league school is not necessarily that big of an advantage and a person just needs to go to a “good” school (whatever that is) and earn consistently high grades in order to get into a good graduate school later on (law school in Chris’ case); but perhaps that is wrong??? I keep hearing from everyone including our college counselor how difficult it is to get into the highly selective schools, and that combined with the low acceptance rates are making me feel like it’s rather hopeless I guess. But you are right, my son is NOT in agreement with this mindset and maybe I should be listening to him. I definitely want to do the best thing for him!</p>

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<p>Money actually is a major issue, and I don’t know how we will be perceived by the financial aid people since my situation is complicated. Ideally I would like Chris to get a lot of merit aid so that our net cost would be $10K-$20K. I realize that might be unrealistic at most of these schools, but I would have a hard time paying more and I would prefer that he not take on debt since he will hopefully be going to law school later. I was hoping that U of Miami and/or U of Denver might offer him some merit aid, and I was under the impression that those were pretty good schools, approximately on the same level as Tulane, is that wrong? </p>

<p>I think Chris would enjoy a larger university setting. He is a writer, but I’m not sure he wants to go into writing in any form and he certainly doesn’t want to take English classes. He wants to eventually go to law school and would like to study political science as an undergrad. (He is actually a math whiz but he has now decided he does not want to go into engineering.)</p>

<p>Do any of the Ivies have early action? I’m not sure about early decision because we have to apply early at a number of other schools in order to be a candidate for the maximum merit aid scholarships, so any sort of restrictive ed makes me nervous. We were going to apply regular decision to Stanford, Duke, Princeton, Harvard and Yale.</p>

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<p>Got it!</p>

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<p>Stanford, Harvard, Princeton and Yale have EA. They, and the other Ivies plus Duke, are several other universities in the US News top 20+ list are need blind. They do not however provide merit aid. Realistically if based on the financial aid calculator that these universities provide, you cannot afford them, there is little sense in applying and you should let your son know that.</p>

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<p>^ Actually, fogcity, their EA is RESTRICTED. Students can only apply to public universities and schools abroad if they apply REA/SCEA (they can, of course, prepare as many RD apps as they wish, but in the early round, it’s not possible to apply to all schools that may offer merit at the same time as HYPS.) In addition, Stanford’s Early admission numbers are very low, and rather than deferring to the Spring, they tend to reject, which is much harder.
However you’re right that the Top 20-25 do not provide merit aid.
Chris17mom: run the Net Price Calculators on the Ivies etc, and look at the numbers; those will be the LOWEST amounts you’ll be expected to pay. $10,000 would be a family of 4 that makes about 80-100,000 a year at the Ivies (with their “super aid” calculator) but </p>

<p>UDenver is much lower academically than either UMiami and Tulane. Tulane and UMiami are of a similar caliber, and Tulane is generous with kids who show they’re interested. However if your kid couldn’t show he’s interested, then no scholarship would be forthcoming.
UMiami-Ohio is often thought of as a public school with a private mindset - lots of upper-middle class kids who want a rather preppy environment but for whatever reason (admission, finances) didn’t enroll into their private school of choice.
Beside Kenyon, give a look at Denison on your way. There are tons of good colleges in Ohio actually. :)</p>

<p>He’s got very good grades. He needs to find “matches”, schools with an admit rate around 40% and where he’s at/near the 25% mark. For him to get merit, he’d need to find schools where he’s in the top 10% and that are outside the Top 20/25. Right now, the possibility he might be rejected from many of his schools doesn’t occur to him. The reality is that we don’t know. And with just reaches and safeties, he needs some middle ground.</p>