Yes, this topic has been beaten to a pulp on another thread.
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OMG how can you get through school without reading?
Seems like you would prefer if the SAT subject tests or something similar in concept were used instead for high school level material. But these are being discontinued. AP tests still remain for more advanced level material, but many high school students will not have reached that level to have finished AP tests before 12th grade in many subjects.
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“Pet peeve” implies it really bugs you. Why, I have no idea.
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OMG how can you get through school without reading?
good question. i would read the back cover, see the movie, buy the cliff notes (which I could not even get through).
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The key is one doesn’t know if the 1500+ shows work ethic or not, it doesn’t mean it’s not there.
If you want to compare H’s, mine got 1200(something) on his SAT, barely got accepted (off waitlist) to a Top 20 or so engineering program - barely graduated (2.0 something) - and now owns the company plus is highly sought after (never needs to advertise) having done projects on 5 continents though has opted to stay local as of the past decade or so - no need to go further. He’s quite intelligent.
His SAT score reflects his not-so-great high school (we’ve compared) and he was busy with ECs/family work. Compared to his classmates, he was very good, so why try for higher? My SAT was much higher than his. My high school had SAT prep as part of our course work.
His college GPA could have been much higher too, but he was again too busy with various ECs from ROTC to sailing. He just wanted to graduate. My college GPA was quite a bit higher. Yet if you compare the two of us post college, he’s done far more with his life and has undoubtedly made our college proud. I tend to be quite Type B and my life reflects it. 
Should they have accepted him or me? FWIW, I got a scholarship and into Honors. He was full pay (we both had ROTC scholarships) and a “regular” student.
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I strongly agree with your post. The extended time thing is a fiasco and completely favors wealthier students. You’re right, time constraints should be removed altogether and everyone allowed more time. This mimics the real world (for the most part) where we have time to think, review and revise our work, etc.
Yes, this topic was debated on another thread, but it somehow never dies. 
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Not all students aim for a Top Whatever school either. Most (where I work) have no desire. They’re pretty self selecting for applications. Just because they go TO in no way means our lower level students will suddenly be applying. Not even all of those in our Top level will be applying.
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I agree with you that extended time is a mess, but I see the problem as way more complex.
- kids who need it have to fight to get it - sometimes failing
- wealthy families fight better to obtain it, whether their student is deserving or not
-if everyone gets the extra time, that would be unfair to those students who have disabilities who are just catching up with the extra time.
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Honestly, I think kids should all have as long as they need. Why limit the time? People think more/less quickly. As long as they come up with the right answer, who cares?
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There is no question that test scores are only one part of a much larger story. I was no where near the academic superstar that my husband was in HS and yet I’m living to tell about it. H’s sister who showed as much academic aptitude as he did, has struggled professionally and personally.
I guess my point is that while a college can’t know for sure whether a 1500+ score was from time spent preparing for the test or the result of a naturally gifted test taker, the score combined with grades and other factors paint a clearer picture (particularly if a high score is combined with a low GPA which could suggest a lazy student overall). I don’t think it should be assumed that a high score = privileged kid, nor do I think test prep = entitled rich kid who didn’t deserve the score. Maybe it was rich kid who worked hard; maybe it was lower-income kid who is incredibly brilliant.
I think it’s weird that we have seemingly moved towards a more narrow review of applicants. I don’t really have any issues with test optional but if a kid takes a standardized test and feels it helps showcase their abilities…why no include it in the holistic review of the application? Maybe there just needs to be fewer requirements. Let the applicants decide what they share that best highlights their skills. Test “blind” is the real problem.
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I guess it depends whether you think the purpose of the extra time is to keep things fair for the less-abled, or whether you think it is just silly to have timed tests all together. I have not thought through the latter.
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The latter. If kids need accommodations with respect to access or timing, it should be provided, IMO.
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Agree. Seems to be that an apples to apples testing comparison is frowned upon. Yet, many seem comfortable that other boosts for legacy, URM, first gen are all ok. There’s always going to be applicants that benefit/lose out when the system changes.
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What?
This part is my point (along with 1200, 1300, etc) and why I feel test scores really aren’t necessary at all TBH, esp since it’s been shown many times that scores don’t really predict success.
If a student has them and wants to submit them, fine, but if not, that’s also fine. One assumes if they submit nothing at all except their name on the application they will be denied.
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I’ll come at this at a different perspective:
- There are plenty of schools that have grade inflation.
For instance, near where I live – and sure, it’s an upper-middle class town, Scituate High School lists some 15% of people who were “High Honor Roll” – that’s all A’s.
In contrast, there are going to be schools where something like 2-5% get all A’s.
Therefore, it’s not a true apples-to-apples comparison in talking about GPA.
- I’ve done some analyses on a. hours of homework/classwork for various types of students and b. the value of certain classes (e.g., AP Physics 1, 2, etc.)
(a)
Public school students at the neighboring upper-middle class high school takes 7 classes tops (or some classes like lifeskills/speech/technology literacy/physical education count as half-classes).
Reference: https://www.miltonps.org/documents/MHS2017-2018ProgramofStudies.pdf
The median student taking 7 classes, between class time and homework, does somewhere around 28-40 hours a week. This is far below what you should expect at a school like MIT
Higher achievers who take like AP Calculus BC, AP Physics C, APUSH, etc. – taking EIGHT of those classes approaches the 48 MIT units. Notice I capitalized EIGHT, not 7 classes. 7 classes of AP Physics C, AP Calculus BC, APUSH, etc. is closer to about 35-50 hours a week.
(b)
AP Physics 1 is not sufficient preparation for MIT.
AP Physics 2 … I would suggest going beyond that a bit.
MIT’s 8.01 is Calculus-based Physics (Classical/Newtonian Mechanics), taught fairly fast.
I’ve mentioned in some interviewees that AP Calculus BC, more than double that speed = MIT’s 18.01. (MIT covers that material in about 15 weeks. Therefore the 48 MIT unit normal/common load of 4x12-unit classes would be a bit more than 8 classes that cover the same material in half that speed.)
In contrast, I also interview for a “top 10 in the United States” private school. Those applicants end up doing a lot more and are a lot better prepared (still nowhere near Andover or Exeter).
For the private school, there are kids doing Machine Learning, Artificial Intelligence, Abstract Algebra and Group Theory, Multivariable Calculus, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, etc.
They’re already working at a pretty high level. A number of them understand that they get a little sleep-deprived during the semester and catch up a bit over long weekends and over breaks.
I have also gone on the record that the top public school applicants is close to the median for this particular private school.
So that’s basically the academic piece:
- Competitive applicants have to have the right academic preparation.
- Competitive applicants have to challenge themselves.
- Competitive applicants have to have rigorous coursework to approach MIT’s workload.
- Competitive applicants have to be excellent students.
Undoubtedly.
Yep, my kid attends one of those.
Yep, this is typical for top students at some schools. And their prep for college is not the same as those at many easier places.
Yes, and some are doing it at the college level.
So when folks want to throw out the SATs because that’s a data point they don’t like, what is the substitute. I’m totally fine if a kid has taken Math Olympiad or AMC or something else (But then again those are also tests, so why would someone want to take those to prove competence and be unwilling to do the ACT/ SAT which is actually easier?)
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I doubt that whether a student scores 780, 750, or 7## has much to do with their chance of success at MIT. For typical MIT type applicants/admits, the SAT/ACT math is a quick race to finish many simple multiple choice algebra/geometry over a quick short period, without making careless errors. In some past exams, making just 2 careless errors could be the difference between a 780 and 720.
In contrast the type of math MIT students would need to be successful in their classes is completely different from the SAT/ACT. MIT classes emphasize higher level math, like calculus, which is not covered in the SAT/ACT. MIT math-type questions are rarely simple and rarely multiple choice. Many will involve showing work. Some classes emphasize proofs. Math tests are also rarely a race and rarely emphasize avoiding making careless errors. Instead students have plenty of time to think about complex questions. Being successful in MIT math classes require a completely different set of knowledge and skill set than does acing the math SAT/ACT, which relates to why MIT requires all incoming students take a math diagnostic exam .
I suppose the math SAT/ACT could flag a kid who applied to MIT in spite not mastering simple algebra and geometry questions, but that kid would almost certainly be flagged in numerous other areas of the application, so he would not be admitted regardless of whether he applied test optional or not. I doubt that the math score adds much value beyond the rest of the application at MIT or similar.
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