@compmom (and all), I realize my post may have sounded as if I was anti-general education requirements completely. I am not. I agree that having educated citizens is critical. But in many other countries, college degrees are 3-year programs instead of 4-year programs, and my understanding is that it is in large part because there are very limited courses required to be taken outside of a student’s major. I’m not saying gen eds are bad, but I do wish our country provided a stronger and more broad K-12 education so that the first or only time many kids are introduced or exposed to subjects like philosophy isn’t in college.
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US K-12 is broader in the sense of not requiring early specialization, but that also can make it less optimized for whatever post graduation destination. The uneven offerings across US K-12 also means that most universities cannot expect that all entering frosh have completed a higher level of work or content in high school.
Thanks for the clarification and you make good points. I would prefer fewer gen eds and more electives or freedom in choosing courses, but support the full 120 credit degree!
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The traditional British system, then.
It is no accident, though, that under that system the three-year degrees are baccalaureates, while the four-year degrees offered under that system are honors baccalaureates.
Wikipedia, FWIW, has a good summary of the differences between national systems in awarding baccalaureate degrees, including times to degree.
Note that it is possible, under some circumstances, for a US student to complete a BA/BS in 3 years of normal-course-load college attendance. But it means something like this:
- Student has completed advanced course work (e.g. AP, IB HL, college) while in high school, with high enough scores or grades.
- The college accepts such scores or grades for 30 or more credits out of the usual 120.
- The student’s major and college general education requirements add up to 90 or fewer credits with no prerequisite sequence longer than 6 semesters, or the credit the student brings in on entry can fulfill enough course requirements that the remaining ones add up to 90 or fewer credits with no prerequisite sequence longer than 6 semesters (and accelerated prerequisite sequencing is not stalled by prerequisites not offered every semester).
Obviously, this type of thing depends on:
- Evaluating colleges while in early high school for credit policies, major requirements, and general education requirements.
- Careful consideration of future college majors while in early high school.
- Careful selection of advanced course work while in high school (that is why the above are best done done in early high school).
- Careful planning of course schedules while in college.
Of course, doing all of the above does lean toward more early specialization starting in early high school, while also limiting college and major choice (and if college choice is constrained by other factors like cost, that can make the choice more difficult).
That is not true. The four-year degrees are called masters. Yes, you do a masters in 4 years because you enter direct to major and study (read) only the classes to this major. The British, however, have a 13-th year in HS. The last two years from the 3-yr bachelor degree are called honor years. At least this how it is in Oxford where my daughter is in her final year.
Scottish degrees are 4-yrs, somewhat more similar to the US system
The problem, of course, is that there are a bunch of different systems out there.
The most widespread British system is a 3-year baccalaureate, 4-year honors baccalaureate. There are British universities (as well as others using the British system) that do things differently, as well as a handful who have adopted the American system.
It’s all a mess, honestly.
Seems like that basically renames the college frosh year to high school grade 13, if the high school grade 13 course work is courses covering material similar to US college frosh level courses (which I understand UK A-level courses do).
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One other possibility: Some US colleges have 3-year plans for baccalaureate degrees that require no AP/IB/transfer credits, but they require year-round (i.e., including summers) attendance, and taking more than 15 credits (or the equivalent) in at least some semesters.
Not for everyone, but some colleges incentivize it by not charging more than a single year’s tuition for a single year including summer work.
Three summers is usually like one and a half regular semesters, so then only slight overloading would be needed to make up a half semester of credits to finish in six regular semesters plus three summers in three calendar years.
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Strong UK students take and pass the equivalent of 5-8 APs at the end of 10th grade, then take 3-4 advanced subjects where they cover roughly our first year major pre-reqs. Nevertheless some degrees have been created to provide more depth at the college level (“Liberal Arts”, usually requiring AAA though). Even there the fact some subjects can be dropped at age 14 and most subjects are dropped at age 16 is not as universally appreciated as it used to.
However a large number of UK students get GCSE results that aren’t that glamorous and others don’t take “AP level” exams, and from that group you have quite a few that take what Oxbridge calls “soft subjects” (you can have 1 soft subject, even for Oxbridge, especially if it’s out of intellectual curiosity and your “4th subject” when most students do 3, or “5th subject/AS level” that you drop at the end of Year12/Grade11.) So their general education may be lacking (hence the forementioned “lesser appreciation”.)
And of course they may take 3 Alevels but pass only 1 or 2.
In addition, EU universities in the Bologna Agreement (3-5-8) are revising the “3” part, because, as upper secondary education becomes less selective, the students don’t comeinto undergrad with the necessary skills. Or reforms may make the programs one year longer, as is happening in France right now ( upper level of secondary school used to have 4 advanced subjects, now there’s more specialization but in two subjects only, covering what used to be taught in college in these 2 but dropping the other 2 entirely) = fewer advanced subjects means the students will need to “catch up” on some subjects… thus programs become “3 or 4 years”, not just 3… In addition, the former very selective 2-year degree completed with a specialization or transition year for either selective Masters or “Grande Ecole”… is now a 3-year degree; several Bachelor’s degrees now take 4 years.
In Ireland, the 4-year degree is called Honours, whereas the (usually more practical) 3-year degree is called Ordinary. Honours(Level 8) can be accessed straight out of secondary school with excellent Leaving Cert. Results in traditional subjects, whereas the Ordinary is accessible with so-so grades in traditional subjects or very good grades in applied subjects,and the best “Ordinary” students can then apply and move on to the “Honours” level at their university (typically).
In Scotland, the B.Sc and the Master’s designation both cover 4-year degrees, with one being science-focused and the other Humanities-focused.
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Agreed! My D had one sitting pre-COVID and was shut out of testing after that. Very good but not amazing score. She did all her test prep with one book and Khan Academy. It was kind of refreshing and freeing to not have tests to worry about. Instead she got really invested in her IB “extras”, read more novels, and taught herself to knit. Many of her friends traveled outside the state multiple times (against government guidance) to sit for SATs.
I do not think SAT/ACT are unfair. There are free ways to prep for anyone who cares to make the effort. (Excluding this year when testing was not available.) But are they useful? In our schools grades are definitely inflated and the weighting system is flawed. Students who have vastly different intellects and study habits can achieve the same (high) GPA. How to differentiate? Rely solely on teacher recs and essays? I don’t know. It was great to be able to spend the time in other more personally beneficial ways though.
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WPI goes test blind beginning with Class of 2022 application cycle:
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Some random anecdotal stories.
I came from a middle-class international background (i.e., my parents only had one car until the middle of high school, I did not own any brand name clothing, I was certainly NOT fashionable).
As I finished a year of math in a month (most kids thought that was impossible) – it wasn’t my parents who told me I should do this. I had the extreme determination – “What is a good use of my time and a good challenge?” And then I finished another year of math in the remaining time.
I always had the attitude of “What is the best I can do?” (which is different from “What’s the bare minimum to pass/to get an A?”)
I of course had lots of help along the way e.g., in 9th grade, I befriended 12th graders who were good at English to learn how to better structure my essays. And I had teachers who also helped e.g., realized I wasn’t being challenged when I was getting straight 100%'s in French, so they put me in the next grade up. (That was a bit tough – not an organic transition unlike math.) Another teacher (Physics teacher) realized I had the math background so I did two years of Physics in a year.
I have told my kids repeatedly (hopefully it will sink in) that “learning SHOULD NEVER STOP with school.” i.e., I expect them to learn outside of school, to challenge themselves.
So certainly I do have high expectations for my kids (I know some parents who don’t have as high expectations).
My oldest (9 years old) thrives although I need to get him to do more math. (Thanks for the reminder.)
My middle kid, I think I need to bother her some more to do math.
Sometimes kids, like adults, don’t know what they don’t know. They’re a bit ignorant on what is out there and what the potential is.
Moreover,
It has been mentioned in the Boston Globe that the academic disparity between high income families and low income families is very significant, even if we just stick to public school. Think of it this way:
Family #1 (High Income): every summer (July, August) from 2nd Grade to 11th Grade, they do summer camp or have enrichment opportunities.
Family #2 (Low Income): use a television as a babysitter.
That’s 2 months x 10 years = 20 months – you’re two academic years ahead.
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This is an odd generalization.
There are plenty of low-income families that have summer enrichment activities for their kids (not summer camps, but certainly use of local library resources, if there’s a local university there’s often programs oriented directly toward local low-income students, I would strongly argue that a summer job counts as enrichment for academic purposes), and plenty of high-income families who don’t (including some of the allegedly academic summer camps out there).
So is there any non-anecdotal evidence for the generalization? Because I actually looked for stuff related to that a few years ago (as part of research into a whole different issue), and except for some that had impossibly narrow criteria on what counts as summer enrichment (e.g., taking college courses for credit and that alone), I found nothing.
Example, not generalization.
Funny. My youngest said yesterday that when s/he has kids, they will do as we did. There will be TV only for movies. What a waster of time. But now kids have phone and computers so it’s getting harder to get kids to read and use their brains.
I think Summer’s depend on the family. My parents were low SES but engaged with nature, the public library and all sorts of free things. I do agree that many high SES parents do expensive academic programs and that can help move the needle over time.
Fair. But in that case, no need to have the words “high income” or “low income” in the example—they’re distractions.
Though I do think that it would be reasonable to have “high family academic capital” and “low family academic capital” in there, and there’s certainly a positive correlation between income (or, perhaps better, SES, which is of course very tightly correlated with income) and academic capital, but there’s a difference in implied causation in the presentation.
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My child gets extended time not because of slow processing, but because of poor vision. His test is also enlarged so he has any hope of seeing the words and numbers. His answer sheet is also enlarged, and it takes more time to fill in giant bubbles. So, it has nothing to do with giving him some kind of advantage and everything to do with him having access to seeing the test! He did not do any paid prep; he read a book about test strategies, took a bunch of practice tests and that was it. He is a very good math student in advanced coursework and an avid reader, so I guess that is prep. But I caution against sweeping generalizations about the reasons for extended time or other accommodations in classes or on tests.
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There was once a web site which showed schools on a map, and where you could click on a school to get information about the school. The strongest correlate to measures of school performance appeared to be parent education levels. Parent education levels did usually correlate to income levels and race/ethnicity in the usual stereotypical ways, but where they differed from the usual stereotypes, the school performance correlated more to parent education levels.
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