New study says major REALLY matters for $$$$

Parents Forum
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<p>When I read this study the first thing I thought was, wouldn’t it be great if the model for college wasn’t total immersion in school and college social life, but a balance between working AND going to school. Yes, a lot of students do it this way – but it isn;t the model. The model is the student goes away to a college for four or five years and mainly studies and socializes and perhaps gets an internship or two along the way.</p>

<p>But imagine if the number of full-time students was reduced by a third or a half – just as many people going to college, but just as many working and attending classes as those who just go to school. Fewer students with loans. More students with a balanced view of scholastics and the workplace. A healthier interplay between the workplace and the school.</p>

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<p>I truly agree that you have to love what you do and that choosing a major based on future income won’t be helpful if you are not talented at it or interested in it.</p>

<p>My D1 is an engineering major - NOT for money potential but because she lives and breathes math and science and that major makes her come alive. </p>

<p>My D2 will likely be a liberal arts major of some sort when she gets to college and that will be okay because her strengths and passions lie in completely different places than D1. And S will likely somehow combine both and I expect that to work for him.</p>

<p>It’s true though that not everyone figures out exactly what they want to be when they are choosing and finishing a major and there are times that having a degree in one of the popular fields can then serve you well as a backbone but ultimately true success will come from enjoying what you do not how much you make.</p>

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<p>

Is this directed at me? (The single ^ has me wondering.) If so, let me assure you that I’m not suggesting that.</p>

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<p>And then there’s MIT – [The</a> MIT factor: celebrating 150 years of maverick genius | Education | The Guardian](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/may/18/mit-massachusetts-150-years-genius]The”>The MIT factor: celebrating 150 years of maverick genius | Higher education | The Guardian)</p>

<p>“A survey of living MIT alumni found that they have formed 25,800 companies, employing more than three million people including about a quarter of the workforce of Silicon Valley. Those firms between them generate global revenues of about $1.9tn (£1.2tn) a year. If MIT was a country, it would have the 11th highest GDP of any nation in the world.”</p>

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<p>Many good points have been made – and most of them, with a sense of courtesy and openness. Perhaps I can rephrase and clarify some of the ones that ended up unintentionally offending some people.</p>

<p>And if anyone has ever read any of my other posts, you might agree that I’m not a narrow minded person or one who denigrates others, so perhaps my original post was written in haste and did not fully convey my meaning.</p>

<p>I believe that college education (which, for me, was a liberal arts education so it’s what I am basing my opinion on) should not solely be thought of in terms of how much money you can make when you get out. I believe that college education should be thought of as preparing you with the analytical skills and foundation of learning that equips you to handle change in careers and job markets. I can’t imagine handling the challenge of staying gainfully employed without the liberal arts education I got. I took plenty of econ, math, bio and chem classes (but no engineering). My perspective is my own, based on my experience.</p>

<p>My choice of words “value to society” was poorly chosen – I apologize. What I meant to say is that in our society, and our kids are not immune to this thinking, many people define “success” as “making money” and I believe that there are many many other ways to define success, such as giving back to your community and living your values.</p>

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<p>DB: I reacted the same way…not sure what I’m supposed to do with this info…</p>

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<p>I have a basic question (no agenda), which for some reason just now occurred to me. When people say “liberal arts education”, is there a generally accepted definition for what this means? To what degree could you tell which courses I took if I told you I had a “liberal arts education.” It may be that different people mean or infer different things when they read this terminology.</p>

<p>Does everyone taking liberal arts take a significant amount of econ, science, or math? Can you get a degree in the “liberal arts” without ever having had a college level literature, history, or philosophy class?</p>

<p>Partly because of accreditation, if someone told me they had an “electrical engineering” education, I would be able to fairly accurately list most of the courses they most likely took for their major.</p>

<p>My first degree was in biophysics. I took this along with a generous helping of Spanish literature, psychology, history, and a little bit of philosophy and art (from what I remember). These were my GE requirements. Was this a “liberal arts” degree?
Seriously. I’m not sure.</p>

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<p>bovertine, sounds like a pretty classic liberal arts degree to me. People here forget that science is one of the liberal arts. While an engineering degree is generally pre-professional I think most engineers in the US are required to take enough general education courses that they get a liberal arts education. I think plenty of people get liberal arts degrees with some holes (mine’s missing econ to my regret.)</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that this study looks only at the earnings of people whose highest degree is a bachelors degree. That makes it pretty irrelevant for graduates of the most selective colleges and universities, where typically, what, 75% or more of the graduates will go on to earn advanced degrees? </p>

<p>This explains some pretty puzzling results, e.g., that “biology and life science” majors earn only slightly more than “humanities and liberal arts” majors, $42-$60K for bio/life sciences v. $38-$57K for humanities/liberal arts. That’s partly because the bio/life science data excludes all the bio/life science majors who go on to become doctors or get their Ph.D.s. Of course, by the same token, the humanities/liberal arts data excludes all the classics, philosophy, and history majors who go on to get law degrees or MBAs or even medical degrees. And since (eventual) advanced degree earners represent most of the class at the Ivies and other elite research universities, as well as at top LACs, the data are of dubious relevance. [By the way, I have no idea what the authors of this study mean by “liberal arts” but apparently their definition excludes biology/life sciences, physical sciences, social sciences, psychology, and the arts, because those all appear as separate categories. To my way of thinking that would leave pretty much just the humanities and perhaps math, but who knows?]</p>

<p>In that light, it’s no surprise that engineering comes out on top. It’s been true for generations that engineers make the top entry-level salaries among bachelors-only graduates, and that for many engineers a bachelors degree is all that’s required for a successful career. In contrast many other professional fields require an advanced degree. That’s true even in K-12 education in some jurisdictions. But as soon as you get that advanced degree and qualify for the higher-paid professional positions, you’re disqualified from this data set. So it’s bound to make engineering look good.</p>

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<p>^^^
Yeah, I noticed that the little synopsis we have indicates that the author gave a cursory look at graduate degrees, but not enough to draw any firm conclusions. He intends to do that in further research.</p>

<p>So another incomplete study leading to consternation over this same issue here on this message board. It’s funny, because I think I’ve yet to see anyone post on here who was despondent over their course of study in college and its impact on their life or career. Everyone seems pretty happy about things on CC. Every major is the best. </p>

<p>You’d probably have to look someplace else to get the bellyacher’s point of view.</p>

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<p>Actually, that is not surprising, since biology is a hugely popular major (possibly because a lot of intended pre-meds major in it, even though it is not required to do pre-med). However, that results in an oversupply of biology graduates relative to the good biology jobs and graduate school slots. Note that only a small percentage of intended pre-meds get into any medical school.</p>

<p>Surveys of bachelor’s degree graduates by some universities find similar results – biology graduates who do not go to medical school do not have very good job and career prospects.</p>

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<p>“Liberal arts” is supposed to mean subjects including math and science as well as humanities and social studies, but many people use it to mean just humanities and social studies.</p>

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<p>The answer to the first question depends on the definition of “liberal arts”. The answer to the second question depends on the school. For example, at Brown or Amherst, there are no breadth requirements, so someone can major in something and take nothing else. In some other schools with breadth requirements, it depends on how specific the breadth requirements are – e.g. “N courses in humanities” versus “1 course in literature, 1 course in history, 1 course in philosophy”.</p>

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<p>another article on the same study</p>

<p>[If</a> money matters, this report is a major deal - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/if-money-matters-this-report-is-a-major-deal/2011/05/23/AF7r459G_story.html]If”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/if-money-matters-this-report-is-a-major-deal/2011/05/23/AF7r459G_story.html)</p>

<p>“There’s this business about people in college following a dream…Students have a right to know what kind of career they’re headed for.”</p>

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<p>I think the money matters for a lot of people and for them it should be a factor in their decision of major/path. For many of them it’s not always a black/white decision - they can still pursue an area they’re interested in but make some decisions that’ll lead them to a more financially rewarding career path than some other majors they might also be interested in. There are some students who absolutely know the path they want to follow and who’ll hope some money will follow them but they’ll head down that path regardless. But there are others, probably the majority of college students, who aren’t passionate about a single major or who don’t really know exactly which path to head down. I think it’s reasonable to consider the financial aspects of the major along with all of the other attributes. At a minimum, it’d be best if they had their eyes wide open on the likely financial aspects of the chosen career path which backs to some extent in the choice of major. Some people handle this by making an up front decision that they don’t care about the financial aspects (easy to do when a young idealistic college student who hasn’t had to support a family), some end up choosing a career path that’s less dependent on the particular major - i.e. ‘a’ degree brings some credibility but the particular major isn’t a requirement for the position, and some double major.</p>

<p>Regardless, the financial aspects and paths of the various majors they might have some interest in should be considered by most students or else they may end up disappointed or maybe even panicking at some point down the road depending on the individual.</p>

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<p>I have a degree in English. Yes, I did get a PhD, but it was fully funded. Didn’t pay one penny and earned money every year I was in the program.</p>

<p>I have a six figure salary, and adjusted for work hours, it would be much higher than my friends who are lawyers. I have very good benefits (recently had a hip replaced all on paid sick days), lifelong health care, dental care and eye care. We don’t have a pension per se, which is a sticking point, but we do have a fully funded retirement account.</p>

<p>In addition, I did not have to hire nannies. I worked during school hours and was home summers. I saved an enormous amount in childcare.</p>

<p>If one is a word person one is not going to suddenly become a numbers person. I did well in math and can do math, but I don’t see/feel/know the world that way.</p>

<p>OTOH, my H got a business degree and it has been worthless for him. He did run his own business, but his business skills were dismal. Fortunately, he is a very gifted photographer and good salesman and has been able to keep himself afloat. He is also gifted in technical fields, which is a good thing, because right now a photographer is all about the computer and not about the camera. He might have done well in a more technical field, but he was focused on business and earned a degree that was really just window dressing. No content.</p>

<p>I think someone who can be a petroleum engineer is going to do well, but we can’t all be petroleum engineers. </p>

<p>The trick is to maximize our talents and proclivities and yes, be practical as we’re considering our futures.</p>

<p>My family thought me insane for not going to law school, but it didn’t interest me. I have been continuous employed for 30 years, something I very much doubt would have happened had I become a lawyer. So my path was more practical for me.</p>

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<p>Sorry DougBetsy it was not directed to you but to ClassOf2015.</p>

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<p>"That makes it pretty irrelevant for graduates of the most selective colleges and universities, where typically, what, 75% or more of the graduates will go on to earn advanced degrees? "</p>

<p>Not necessarily true. Some Ivies have 70% UG choose to work instead of grad school.</p>

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<p>One thing to note is that relatively few universities make available information about the job and career prospects of their own graduates in different majors. Here are some of those who do (the better ones include information like percentage employed versus unemployed versus graduate school, as well as pay rates for those employed):</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>But many university career center web sites just point to generic national survey data, which may not give as accurate a picture for what a new graduate can expect upon entering the job market with a bachelor’s degree.</p>

<p>Of course, job and career prospects should not be the only factor in choosing one’s field of study. But in a time when university education is expensive, and a large percentage of students need loans to afford it, it is necessary to at least know what one is getting into financially.</p>

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<p>S is starting in the fall as a Psych major. I had some concerns before I read this article and now I have even more. Income lower than that of a high school graduate, that is depressing. And if you go to grad school you can only increase that by 67% on average? Very dismal.
I think a solid minor or dual major is in order, hopefully he agrees. If you don’t go the med school route, I think the income is really going to be much lower than he planned. He could certainly look at going to b-school after undergrad if his grades are good and he takes some basic biz courses in undergrad. We shall see.</p>

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<p>^^ ldinct:
I think the article was referring less to the particular degree (psych in this case) and more to the career field of ‘counseling psychology’ which I assume is a social worker of some type. People with psych degrees end up in all kinds of careers. The important point for your S is to make sure he starts to understand the fields generally available and the financial aspects of those fields so he can eventually make a decision or possibly even choose a different major based on it if that’s what he wants.</p>