<p>I see the topic of AP versus IB, a staple topic among some CC participants, has now reached the pages of the Washington Post. </p>
<p>On the basis of my daughter's experience in an IB school that also offers AP courses: IB higher level is more rigorous than AP, which in turn is more rigorous than IB standard level. In general. With exceptions.</p>
<p>I would say that IB -- if you do the full diploma program -- is more challenging because you must take rigorous courses in your worst subjects as well as your best. And then there's the alphabet soup component of IB -- the EE (extended essay), TOK (theory of knowledge), and CAS (creativity, action, and service). All of these things take up substantial amounts of time. </p>
<p>Also, many people do not realize that the IB "exam" grade usually does not reflect simply a three-hour exam. There are other components in most subjects -- papers called IAs (internal assessments, graded by your own teachers) or EAs (external assessments, graded by IB teachers from some other school) that go into the exam grade, and sometimes other things as well. For example, for higher level English, the kids have to submit two papers and complete an oral exam component, as well as taking two three-hour tests in May. For higher level music, they have to complete a project, do 20 minutes of solo performances (taped, to be reviewed later by an IB grader), submit 5 minutes of original compositions, and take a test in May on the history/theory content of the course. IB is a lot of work, by anyone's standards.</p>
<p>AP, on the other hand, gives you the opportunity to take advanced classes in more than six subjects. There are kids out there who take 10 or more AP courses. Of course, there are also IB students who take additional AP classes on top of the full IB program. But then, some kids are nuts.</p>
<p>I live in Fairfax County, a DC suburb. It used to be that all FCPS hs/secondaries offered AP. When FCPS implemented IB, they put the program in the lower-ranked schools. FCPS did this in the hopes that competitive students would pupil-place from their high-performing base school to the closest IB. 2 schools that were assigned IB that were reputable schools were Woodson and Robinson. Woodson successfully fought to dump IB and get back their AP classes. Robinson is so huge that they offer a full IB program and a smattering of APs. For the most part, the students AREN'T pupilplacing from AP to IB schools and the gulf has widened between the AP and IB schools at least in terms of public perception.</p>
<p>Motherdear has a good point.</p>
<p>Much depends on how AP and IB are implemented, which schools have which programs, and which kids are in which classes.</p>
<p>At my daughter's school, the academic level of the IB kids is very high. The AP classes serve a broader mix of kids. The atmosphere in the AP classes differs from that in the IB classes for this reason. And so does the level of success on the tests.</p>
<p>
[quote]
AP students say that the IB program allows for too many open-ended questions on exams...
[/quote]
Right, because the real world has multiple choice!</p>
<p>
[quote]
For MacGregor, the world's No. 2 on the Cambridge English language test, her program has paid off. She has been accepted to the University of Virginia, and she won a prize for her performance on the test: a gift certificate worth more than $100 for Amazon.com.</p>
<p>Does IB or AP offer the same for its top students? That would be a big no.
[/quote]
How sad- IB students don't get $100 for Amazon. They only get scholarships.
<a href="http://www.ibo.org/diploma/recognition/scholarships/%5B/url%5D">http://www.ibo.org/diploma/recognition/scholarships/</a></p>
<p>That Georgetown admissions dean needs to go back to high school. He's delusional. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>My son went to a private international school in DC, <a href="http://www.wis.edu%5B/url%5D">www.wis.edu</a>, for 13 years. The school has a coordinated IB program from k-12. IB is just not a collection of courses demanding hard work it is a philosophy of education that stresses global learning and critical analysis over the rote memorization of facts. It makes not only for well-educated young people but also citizens who question prevailing wisdom. As the head of the upper school said to my son's graduating class: "Go forth and argue."</p>
<p>I am not impressed by public school IB programs although the one in Falls Church VA is supposed to be very good. I think that most students don't get to do the full IB, and in any case they miss out on the critical thinking part, which really requires more than two years worth of courses.</p>
<p>I'm sorry if I sound hypercritical, but my wife and I thought long and hard before we invested a huge amount of money and our son's education in this school. It was worth every penny. It produced a thoughtful, well-education, humane young person. Exactly what we wanted.</p>
<p>I always had my eye on IB schools but never found any at the right times for my kids. The thing I like about IB is that it is an entire program, as Marian described it. I was actually surprised that there were options to take "partials". The disadvantage, I would think is for kids who are much weaker in some subjects than others as it would show up in a full IB program, but could also show in the choice of AP exams.</p>
<p>To me, APs are just exams, and AP designated courses are just those that cover the material in those exams. Many rigorous independent schools are getting rid of the AP designation for specific courses but encouraging students to take the exam after a set point in their studies. For example, my son's American History course last year was not designated APUSH,and it was NOT recommended that the kids take the AP exam. However, nearly everyone takes it this year after another history course that is not US history centered, more of a modern world history. That along with English offerings completee the items in the APUSH syllabus and most kids do well on the AP exam here. So it is with a number of other AP courses. Kids here seem to get into top colleges even without taking many of the APs. </p>
<p>As for the IB curriculum, where we used to live, one of the top public magnet schools had such a program. But it seemed to me that few kids graduated with the full IB degree and those that ended up at the most selective schools took AP exams on top of their IBs. </p>
<p>Question for those who know? How are colleges, particularly the most selective ones about giving IB credit? It seems that many colleges only give college credit for 4s and 5s, sometimes just 5s. Or they will give specific course credit for top scores, but only allow general credit for 3s and 4s or just 3s, depending on where they draw the lines, and they may be different for different exams within the same school. What do kids with the full IB diploma get in terms of college credit? Do they enter as sophomores? What is the scoring spectrum? Just curious.</p>
<p>Most selective colleges only give credit for 6/7's on HL exams, and sometimes they're picky about which HL subjects they accept. </p>
<p>I did the Diploma program plus a few extra APs. My school system paid for all our exams, so I took the equivalent AP exam for each SL & HL subject and racked up on college credit. Duke is extremely stingy about college credit, so we normally only get two credits (since they require 34 courses, that doesn't do much!). Technically I could graduate a year early, but I'm planning to study abroad instead. One of my fellow IBers went to BYU as a junior, and another entered BU as a sophomore- it varies from college to college.</p>
<p>I have known some students in our large urban/suburban school system to apply to a desirable school's IB magnet program (because that is the only way they could get in the school if it's not their assigned school) under the guise of pursuing an IB diploma only to decide after the freshman year that it's "not for them" and drop back to the easier IB Certificate route. They get the less difficult program and get to stay in the school of their choice which was their intention all along with the people I have known to do it.</p>
<p>I don't think the article was that well covered. IB and Cambridge are very similar but they missed opportunities to show that. For example, from what i can see of the Cambridge English exam, they study some books and then take a paper on them, this is basically the IB exam as well although we have World Lit papers, Oral Presentation, and Formal Oral as an exam grade component. However we still know the books we're being tested on. I have no idea exactly what AP does but I had more or less assumed that teachers would know what books the exam covers? IB and Cambridge (AFAIK about the Cambridge exams) are just writing multiple essays on the books covered. IB has a written commentary where you haven't seen the piece but you're just writing a commentary on the passage, not answering anything about what you haven't seen. </p>
<p>I know some people in the Cambridge program profiled (although I'm not in it, not in the same county). Seems pretty similar to IB. They had tons of summer work, lots of writing. I don't think any of the three programs is "harder" in terms of the material exactly. I think the IB and Cambridge Diploma ask for more out of class work, however for taking individual certificates probably not so much the case.</p>
<p>The AP English Literature test involves multiple-choice questions on passages, essay questions on passages (including poetry) and one essay question where the student can choose any "work of recognized literary merit" to write about. There's no "reading list" for AP English.</p>
<p>I was waiting for this article to come up today. Reading Charlie's comments about IB and the Cambridge Program make me realize why students and parents come to us confused at times. Colleges are saying very different things about these programs.</p>
<p>Something we've been telling the counselors we see on the road for the last few years is that we'll go by what they tell us when it comes to the strongest program at their school. Some will say that IB is stronger than AP, others will put the classes at the same level, and obviously some will say AP is more rigorous. Regardless of what I think of AP/IB/Cambridge (and I think they all have merits), the SSR tells us how to interpret the courses on a student's transcript.</p>
<p>^^^Agreed
I think the IB vs. AP debate can only be fought at each particular school. The rigor of these courses varies GREATLY between schools and districts. My school offers about 20 AP courses and only the necessary 6-7 IB Courses. In addition, there the classes are unevenely distributed (there is an IB French Ab Initio, but nothing else, while there is an IB Spanish HL, but nothing lower, so someone who has taken french for the past 3 years couldnt take a language) and some of the classes are even conjoined with AP classes. For example, AP and IB physics is the same exact class (same period). Finally, I'm a year ahead in my main subjects (I'm a sophmore, but I take mostly junior level classes), so I am taking APUSH this year, but the only history course currently offered by our school's IB is History of the Americas. I feel it would be stupid to just repeat a course.<br>
So for my school, I dont think it's worth it for me to take IB.
I don't think its fair for colleges to wiegh one, either IB or AP, more than the other, b/c the difficulty of the course is completely dependent on you school system.</p>
<p>It's not just the difficulty of the courses, it's also the teachers and which students take which. For a long time, my son was planning to be part of the initial IB Diploma group at his school. He dropped out at the last minute because he realized that few of the other students he enjoyed taking classes with were going to be in the IB program, and because he thought he could get better teachers outside the IB program (especially since IB would have precluded taking any electives). With two years' hindsight, he was completely right in his analysis. Obviously, this would differ from school to school.</p>
<p>He decided to take Latin IB (SL) rather than Latin 3 Honors and Latin 4 AP (Vergil), though (same teacher, same classroom, same time), and he has been very happy with that decision, too. He has enjoyed Cicero as much as or more than Virgil, and he's looking forward to Ovid. The AP kids are really tired of the Aeneid. The IB curriculum design and tests are much more impressive than AP.</p>
<p>Wouldn't the exams show the who the strongest students are? Since both IB and AP are standardized in exams, those who do the best in those exams have that going for them. To take the whole set of IB exams and do well, to me, would indicate a very strong student in terms of knowlege. Of course if the grades show much otherwise, we have an underachiever. That is one of the benefits of these courses in my eyes, a major one, in unknown schools. If the kids are doing well in these standardized exams, the courses teaching them are solid. If not, well.... I know there is a school here that boasts many AP courses, but when you look at the outcomes, that is a lot less impressive.<br>
I would think a kid who takes the full IB program, does well in it but perhaps not as well as another at the same school who is picking and choosing his courses, including some APs here and there, is still the stronger student most of the time, given exam performance backs this up.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"The AP program has been in effect for a very long time. It's got a very rigorous curriculum design, and it covers the subject matter we want to see, and it's scored on a rigorous basis, whereas in IB, it's not quite as rigorous."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>wow. IB tests are curved INTERNATIONALLY. Only a small fraction (like, less than 5%) of students score a 7 on any subject. On the other hand, 50% of students can score a 5 on the AP Calc test. The IB program is severely undercredited in schools for this reason. "You didn't get the highest score so we aren't giving credit." Well, if you give credit to the highest 50% of scores on the AP test, maybe you should give credit to the highest 50% of scores on the IB test too.</p>
<p>Another issue with colleges in the "higher level" distinction placed on some IB classes. Some school won't give credit for "standard level" classes. This results in problems, ie Calc I is a "standard level" IB class. The higher level math class in IB goes further than Calc II. So, schools give credit for AP Calc AB, but not the "standard level" IB calc class.</p>
<p>I know countless people who came into college with 30+ credits, and they are ALL AP students. Many of them also worry freshmen year when they are assigned long papers (or when their friend has a paper to write in one or two days, they worry about their friends...), because they have never written such a paper. IB students turn out substantial papers fairly regularly.</p>
<p>I know a lot of AP students who basically cruised through a bunch of their classes, and you will not find an IB student who says the same.</p>
<p>IB students do get credit at schools that aren't "at the top of the rankings", and will sometimes come in with Sophomore standing. I know when I was applying to schools, FSU offered a year worth of credits if you had a diploma. However, at the "top" schools, IB doesn't get the credit it deserves.</p>
<p>How many people score have 6 5's on AP tests when they graduate? I don't know, but it's a lot. They are all over this website. However, less than 100 people a year, out of over 20,000 score a 45/45 (perfect score) on their IB Diploma. (in 2005, it was 60 out of 30,000 according to <a href="http://www.bedfordschool.org.uk/news_detail.asp?news=306%5B/url%5D">http://www.bedfordschool.org.uk/news_detail.asp?news=306</a> ).</p>
<p>I also think that many American students of IB are burned out by May of Senior year. They have been working extremely hard for the last 2 years, and their final class grades don't depend on their exam grades, they know they won't get much credit at their college of choice, and their acceptance to college does not depend on what they score, unlike many other schools. (According to the Oxford website, they require at least a 38 (I believe generally they are a point or two higher), so if you got a conditional acceptance, you will study as much as you can to get that 38.)</p>
<p>/IB Diploma May '04
//came to college with 3 credits, AP Gov, taken senior year, 2 years after I took government in high school, with about 1 hour of prep.</p>
<p>IB diploma program students are only allowed to take two of their six exams as juniors, and both of those exams must be standard level. They take the other four exams, including all of their higher level exams, in May of their senior year and do not receive their IB exam scores until July.</p>
<p>So colleges can't make use of IB exam scores to any significant extent in their admissions process.</p>
<p>There do exist so-called predicted IB exam scores, figured out by IB teachers, but U.S. colleges do not seem to care about these. They are of great importance, though, in other parts of the world.</p>
<p>IB students can and do take AP tests -- in IB standard level subjects (this is worth doing because few colleges give credit for IB standard level exams), in AP subjects that they took outside the IB program, or in AP subjects that they took before they started IB (IB, technically, only takes up the last two years of high school). My daughter, who is in an IB diploma program, took four AP tests before her senior year (and got 3 5's and 1 4) and will take four more as a senior. This makes her something of a slacker by her school's standards. A lot of kids take more.</p>
<p>My son is a freshman attending a selective IB full diploma program not mentioned in today's Post. To get in, the kids must test, making it a fairly self-selected/motivated group. It is a TON of work. He works harder than my other DS, who's at a math/sci magnet.</p>
<p>Not only are there the IB exams in junior and senior years, but his program designs all of their courses according to the IB format so that the kids will be prepared when they get to the real thing. As a result, the program has one of the highest percentages of kids earning diplomas, and they score way above the international averages.</p>
<p>The no college credit for SL irks me, too; the SL Spanish requires five years of language. Most people who take that much foreign language would do well on the AP exam. SL Math Studies is through BC Calc, from what I understand (Marian, correct me if I'm wrong!). This leads to IB kids (at least as DS2's school) taking AP exams in their SLs. In addition, because kids taking HLs are ususally doing so in their areas of greatest strength, the kids feel the need to take APs in those classes too before senior year so they have credentials for college apps.</p>
<p>And last, but not least, the pre-IB kids take Gov't and APUSH, taught IB-style, in 9th and 10th, and generally take the corresponding AP exams.</p>
<p>We figure he will have 3 HLs, 3 SLs, and 8-10 APs by the time he's done. Four are in subjects he loves but are outside of IB; the others will probably be the AP equivalents of the IBs. For this son, getting advanced standing will probably be more important than credentials for top-tier schools. He would like to study overseas and take some time off to travel as well, so this could give him what amounts to a gap year while in college. We'll see how things go.</p>
<p>
[quote]
SL Math Studies is through BC Calc, from what I understand (Marian, correct me if I'm wrong!).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's annoyingly hard to find copies of the IB syllabuses on the Web, but I think that isn't quite correct. IB covers a few math topics that are hardly covered at all in the usual calculus sequence in the United States, but I don't get the impression at all that it goes to the higher levels of United States high school calculus, even in the IB HL math program. My data for forming this impression were various college Web pages about placement in math classes according to what high school credentials a student has, and what little I can find out about the usual IB syllabus. I would LOVE to see Web links to the IB math syllabuses, even if those proved wrong what I just wrote here.</p>
<p>Yes, the foreign language irked me too. In fact, my school lumped IB SL and AP languages together. I got a 7 on the IB exam but didn't get credit, and I couldn't take the AP German exam because I had a scheduling conflict. :mad:</p>
<p>You're a bit off on math, LOL.
Math Studies SL = AP Statistics
Math Methods SL = Pre-cal/AP Calc AB
Math HL = Calc BC + other</p>