<p>Interesting that you would put quotes around the word victim. Is that because you question that they were victims? Also that you think one parent is "prejudiced" by the events of the past. Prejucdiced as in unduly influenced by the events of the past. You're kidding, right? I'm getting nowhere in this thread and just confirming my own fears.</p>
<p>That's good, go. Maybe you'd feel better about sending your "d" or "s" to wesleyan or brown.</p>
<p>Thanks, but my S is probably bound for Michigan</p>
<p>go, there is racism at UVa as there is racism at all colleges. However, I can say for sure that the majority (more than 99%) of UVa is not racist, sexist, etc (we are also a school that is very welcoming to people of all sexual orientations).</p>
<p>Most of the UVa community - alumni, students, and parents are horrified by hate crimes that occur occasionally at the University and most of us believe that the administration should do whatever is necessary to console victims, catch the people who do these crimes, and create an environment where future crimes won't occur.</p>
<p>go, I understand your fear as a parent - however, the media does tend to hype things up. Is racism a problem at UVa? yes. Is it more so a problem at UVa than any other school? no. </p>
<p>Again, please do not push your S or D away from UVa because of a few incidents by a few idiots. You will then be denying your S or D, the experience of the Best University in the nation. I do not know if you are a minority, but if you are and are still concerned that your S or D will experience racism, contact University offices seen on the websites below:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.virginia.edu/vpdiversity/%5B/url%5D">http://www.virginia.edu/vpdiversity/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.virginia.edu/uvadiversity/%5B/url%5D">http://www.virginia.edu/uvadiversity/</a></p>
<p>I haven't read the Newsweek article, but please see the University's response to those hate crimes before making a decision about UVa.</p>
<p>go, Michigan is a great school...but did your S apply or is at least planning to apply to Virginia. If you do more research, you will find that Virginia is not racist at all - and a few idiots are making us look bad. If your S applies, you will have almost 3-4 months to decide for yourself if Virginia is racist - visit the campus; see if he can stay overnight.</p>
<p>i want to read this newsweek article, where can i find it?</p>
<p>I used quotation marks because one girl got beer spilled on her a drunk girl's apology was "incensere." umm, she was probably trashed. Another couldn't get into a party until her friends showed up. Many parties do not want random people coming in, drinking their alcohol and then creating disturbances. Once her friends were there things were fine. These are regular if regrettable aspects of college. Yet she is being "victimized."</p>
<p>oh, and i don't go to uva. try that one on. it's interesting how you make assumption and generalizations... y'all should definitely visit the school and not base anything on an anonymous website.</p>
<p>I've been reading this thread for awhile, and I'm pretty interested enough to create an account and post.</p>
<p>Remember the statistics Globalist had posted. Virginia indeed is a very welcoming school to minority students, and has excellent graduation rates among these minorities. Traditionally more 'liberal' public universities, on the other hand, have certain problems in this regard, which demonstrates a relatively poorer (but not necessarily bad) experience for more minority students (such as Berkeley and Michigan). In fact, Ann Arbor is hardly any better than Virginia in this regard. According to a report from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, which I'll post at the end of this, Michigan has a very poor graduation rate among African American students (23 points lower than the graduation rate for whites). In fact, this JBHE has ranked UVA among the top, major universities in integration programs, with schools like Michigan and Berkeley further down (I'll also post this link). It is clearly the most highly praised out of all major state universities in this regard.</p>
<p>Of course, there will always be the anecdotal issues where a few specific people have some problems. Those are pretty much promptly dealt with at ANY university you go to. They also occur at almost ANY university you go to, and some of the particulars of these events are in question anyway. Additionally, these minor problems (to my knowledge, no one has been significantly harmed or has felt threatened) pale in comparison to the general experience and statistical facts. As a minority at this university, I have, so far, found it an excellent institution. On the other hand, I tend to not let these things bother me, so I don't usually try to 'seek out' certain, alleged injustices against me because of my race. In the end, I feel this Newsweek article has maybe gone a little bit too far, and overplayed its bounds by attempting to make a more sensationalist work (which, in the end, sells more). I know this is a lot, but I feel Virginia's reputation here is being attacked in an unwarranted fashion.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html</a>
<a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/36_leading_universities.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jbhe.com/features/36_leading_universities.html</a></p>
<p>Julian Bond-- Head of the NAACP-- also teaches a class at UVa, always very popular among students of many races</p>
<p>jacl - speaking of assumptions, where did I say you were a UVA student? Frankly, I don't know whether you are or aren't a student, a fact which is not really pertinent to my confidence in the quality of your posts.</p>
<p>sv3a - great post, thank you. I read the attachments with great interest. I need to point out one item from the article, in regards to Michigan.</p>
<p>"We accept the view that a very strong black student graduation rate is a good indicator of institutional success in racial integration of a given campus. But readers are cautioned that a lower graduation rate can be a positive indicator of a college or university's willingness to take a chance on academically dedicated young black students with substandard academic credentials."</p>
<p>As we all know, Michigan took an extremely aggresive approach to minority recruiting and acceptance as evidenced by the court action. We just need to keep that relevant fact central in our analysis.</p>
<p>Thanks again for the great information.</p>
<p>Actively admitting those with admittedly "substandard academic credentials" is easy especially at a school the size of Michigan. However, does it really help these kids in the long run if they fail out, squadering the chance at a degree-- even if it would come at a less reknowned institution? If Michigan is as committed as you want to believe, they would have the support networks to get these kids through. We just need to keep that relevant and central in our analysis.</p>
<p>It's obviously more important to jacl11905 to have the last word rather than get it right, so I give. Uncle.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But readers are cautioned that a lower graduation rate can be a positive indicator of a college or university's willingness to take a chance on academically dedicated young black students with substandard academic credentials.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think that's positive at all! That means you're admitting kids who either aren't dedicated enough [how are they "academically dedicated" if they aren't graduating?] or haven't been given the tools to succeed at your institution. Because you admitted kids who couldn't handle your workload and subsequently dropped out, you may have squandered their chance to get a good albeit less prestigious education at a university more suited to their needs. Not only that, it also indicates that your institution is admitting those substandard students, and then not doing a good job of helping them transition to their new lifestyle. In other words, they're letting them in when they aren't qualified to keep their minority admits up, then forgetting about them and letting them struggle and fail because they weren't prepared for an education of Michigan's quality in the first place.</p>
<p>Jeez, that almost makes me not want to apply to Michigan.</p>
<p>Sounds like the same arguments that were made to keep minorities out of white schools in the 60's. I know that this is an educated group, so I am surprised that some are putting forth a line of reasoning that harkens back to the "separate but equal" standard.</p>
<p>Michigan embraces diversity - in the admissions process - like practically no other university in the country (see Gratz v. Bollinger). They need to lower admission standards to account for institutionalized discrimination still present in this country.</p>
<p>However, once a minority student is enrolled, they are treated on par with all other students in the university because that is the standard they will face after college. If they cannot meet this standard, then they cannot matriculate at Michigan. That, to me, is true equality. Propping a student up once they enroll does more of a disservice because they will not be propped up post-college.</p>
<p>It seems that the underlying assumption is that those who do not meet these standards at Michigan fall off the face of the earth. The fact is that 88% of the minorities who leave Michigan enroll at other colleges and universities (see previous articles cited).</p>
<p>So what is worse, lowering the bar to give minorities the opportunity to perform or never admitting them in the first place?</p>
<p>How about admitting those minorities who meet the admissions standards that everyone else does? If we send the message to minorities that it is okay if they don't perform as well in high school because they're minorities, then they have no incentive to do well because no one expects it of them. For my money we should have affirmative action based on socio-economic status and forget about race. Is it fair that a minority coming from a presitgious prep school gets preferential treatment simply because they're a minority? I don't think so.</p>
<p>Also, go5878, matriculate doesn't mean to graduate it means to be admitted.</p>
<p>Wahoo2007, my Webster's Collegiate defines the word matriculate as "to be enrolled at". Does your definition say, "to be admitted"? In my sentence, I did not mean for it to be defined as "to graduate", merely to continue to be "enrolled at". I apologize for any confusion created on my part.</p>
<p>I accept that many people believe, as you do, that African Americans should not have preferential enrollment status merely due to their race. I would submit to you that an African American, even from a prestigious high school, faces far more impediments to success than his white counterpart. I, for one, am thankful that affirmative action exists in recognizing institutional prejudice in our society and that an institution like Michigan goes above and beyond to carry out not just the letter, but the spirit of the law.</p>
<p>While I question "institutionalized discrimination" as you call it, there is certainly the legacy of generational poverty that hinders academic achievement among many African Americans that dates back to slavery and segregation. Bad schools, absent parents, no books in the house etc. I absolutely believe these kids need to be challenged and held to an equal standard in college, but the truth is you cannot learn to write a college quality term paper or catch up on several years of math in time to pass the first semesters. In addition, many black students coming from often entirely black high schools and neighborhoods experience the culture shock of coming to a high majority white institution. Support networks to build a base upon which they can actually succeed and thrive are vital even for those that may squeak by without them. They need the chance to "meet the standard." Virginia has excelent and improving support in place that does much more than "prop them up". I do not know about Michigan so I cannot comment, although the sheer size of the school must make these efforts all the more difficult. Michigan has the right intentions in its admissions policies, but this does not make it a better place to matriculate for blacks.</p>
<p>where did you get "separate but equal" in this thread?</p>
<p>First, I accept that we are never going to agree because you believe that the chicken came first and say it was the egg. By saying that it is "generational poverty that hinders academic achievement", you completely ignore the ongoing discrimination that inhibits African Americans from breaking free of this cycle. I say slavery/discrimination creates proverty creates poor academic achievment. You say it's poverty, period. I hope I am understanding that correctly.</p>
<p>I need to quible with a couple of your points. First, you imply that Michigan is admitting African Americans ("AA") that can't write a quality term paper or need to catch up on several years of math. In fact, the difference between AA admits and regular admits is an average of 1.4 in the GPA and 130 in the SAT (per Gratz v Bollinger). </p>
<p>Second, I don't understand the correlation between "sheer size" and support networks. I could make the argument that sheer size is of benefit because of the larger poplulation of AA. In addtion, Michigan is no monolith with an undergraduate population of 23,000, compared to Virginia at 13,000. There are certainly schools with much larger populations of undergraduates.</p>
<p>Where did I get seperate but equal? If AA are admitted with the same standards as all other admits, they will go to lesser presitigous schools. You seem to indicate that this is fine, that they have the opportunity to go to a decent school and get a good education. Seperate but equal. In fact, by not getting the opportunity to attend a more prestigous school, they are at a disadvantage with regard to the best jobs in competing with prestigious school graduates. That is institutional discrimination. Poorer elemenaty/high school=less prestigious college= competitive disavdavtage in the marketplace.</p>
<p>I know that you see the cycle, but you see it with regard to economic status divorced from race. On that, we must disagree.</p>
<p>I agree with your analysis of "slavery/discrimination creates proverty creates poor academic achievment" but I think we have moved past the slavery/discrimination stage (here is where we may be irreconcilable). I agree that slavery and segregation triggered this cycle, rejecting earned promotions, restricting blacks from certain industries, with redlining and the appreciation of lily-white suburban homes creating a bastion of wealth, education and resources for whites at the expense of blacks. I think this is over. You do not. We both agree this has to be rectified and AA is the only way that colleges are currently addressing this achievement gap, so I support it, but it is so flawed (ie. Michigan's lower grauation rate). Certainly I do not support sending kids to substandard schools, I just wonder if a kid with a B- average (you say AA kids are a point down on average) from a struggling inner-city school might have already overcome so many setbacks they do not need the competition and possible failing marks of Michigan, or maybe they need guidance and support to get through, not the feed them to the wolves equality you advocate. Certainly prestige is not the end all that it is portrayed as on this board, ivy league grads make no more money than those from other universities. Mostly, I don't think admissions officers can close the achievement gap by themselves and that UM's method is not fostering a better environment or benefitting minorities more than UVa.</p>
<p>As far as the original question of this post, I hope Globalist and sv3a have convinced you that racism is not institutionalized at UVa, and in fact the opposite is the case. Idiot individuals and community members have done some embarassing things, the sort which can occur anywhere. In no way should this impact anyone's decision to apply or attend.</p>