<pre><code>Thank you for your reply. It’s probably one of those questions that doesn’t have a definitive answer because it depends on the college, depends on the individual applicant, etc.
The question came up for me because of my friend’s D who is a very strong student and got waitlisted almost everywhere and I thought it might have something to do with seeking aid. (In their case, merit, since they wouldn’t qualify for need-based aid. For us, it wasn’t an issue for S1. We knew we didn’t qualify for need-based aid and I thought that merit aid was also more geared toward need (as well as scores) so we checked “no” on the financial aid box.
I will research this more closely over the next year, though, because S2 will be applying for college while S1 is still attending and our financial situation may be quite different.
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Calmom:
Thank you for your reply. You’re right; I don’t really understand the financial aid/merit aid system and your post is really helpful. It will prevent me from giving half-baked advice to friends based on mere assumptions.
We were newbies at this with S1 and didn’t focus on the financial side as much as we probably should have. (Didn’t discover the CC forums til after S’s applications were in the mail.) It will be more of an issue for us for S2, though, with the first still in college. By then, I think our fingers will be crossed for one of the UCs.
Our son did not apply for need based financial aid. He received generous merit awards from all the NON-IVY schools to which he applied. - - As you must know from reading cc, Ivies only give need based awards and ABSOLUTELY NO MERIT.
In case you are wondering, he attended an Ivy and as expected, received no merit.
I just discovered this thread today. What an extraodinary and uplifting story. This should be published on every GC’s website for all students and their parents to learn from. Fortunately, we just sort of “dumb lucked” our way into a very good spectrum of schools for our son, and he ended up getting into his first choice (though he certainly was not accepted at all). In the “application hell” period, we were thinking that, if he didn’t get into any of his reaches or matches, we would just have to send him to the best choice we had. This thread powerfully illistates the wisdom of actually choosing the gap year as the smartest choice if you don’t what you want on the first try.
I have followed this story for over a year now, and I’ve never been clear about one aspect of it:
What was the role of the Guidance Counselor in all this? In my daughters’ school, the guidance counselor emphasized safety schools over and over again. I think he would have strongly discouraged anyone from applying only to schools like those in Andison’s original list. It’s not only up to the parents to decide where a kid should apply! Guidance Counselors are also obligated to advise, and make sure this kind of thing doesn’t happen. I just can’t recall seeing anything about Andison’s relationship with the GC.
That’s a good question about the GC. At my children’s schools and at the school where I teach, the GCs push safety saftey safety. In fact, one of dd’s friends was applying ED to Oberlin, one of the school’s Andison apparently thought of as at least close to a safety, and the GC called him in and said, “Where else? No way can anyone count on Oberlin.” (The young man does go there and he was a clear Oberlin likely; the point is simply that it’s not a guanteed admit for anyone.)
At any rate, it’s delightful that AS is off to MIT.
A really good guidance counselor will help the student find a good balance of schools, but many either aim too low or too high.
I’ve heard stories of top students being told, “Oh, apply to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton - and you’ll be sure to get into at least one,” and varsity athletes being told, “You don’t need the grades and scores the other applicants do because you’re a good athlete.” I’ve also known of average students who were advised to apply to really low ranked schools just because they weren’t in the top ten percent of the class. Those students got in EVERYWHERE, which tells me that they didn’t aim high enough.
Parents have to do a lot of research themselves to become their child’s advocate in the process. Senior year is a tough one for everyone.
Susanna the GC was brand new and very young- the first time andison met her was to request a recommendation. The head GC had one foot out the door and left before the year even ended. Although the school is a top public high school, the GCs are overburdened and I can understand him/her not having the experience and time to give the best advice. Given the circumstances I’ve never wanted to place blame.
i think those with GC’s who are really making sure that each child is applying to an appropriate range of schools for that indiv. student should be thankful that they have such a GC. But I really think the truth of the matter is that in many many schools the GC’s simply aren’t able to provide this level of individual attention. It’s not a matter of trying to say whether they are “good” or “bad” GC’s – its just a statement of reality. Its not even just a matter of the GC’s effort – some may think they are doing a student a favor by pushing him/her to reach for the stars.
In general, schools vary considerably in terms of the amount of support they offer their college bound students (# of honors and Ap courses, # of extra curric activities, availability of special programs such as science research, etc.). It really shouldn’t be surprising that there is a broad range of GC services as well.
I understand you not wanting to place blame, but as a mother of a son with startingly similar statistics to your son (but no music), I want to avoid whatever mistakes your GC may have made. So far my son’s GC has had him come up with a list of matches, likelies, and possible reaches – about ten schools in all. I’m sure your son thought he was covering all those bases too. Where was the glitch? Has anyone said that checking the box for financial aid makes a difference? Why were what he thought of as “safeties” not? I’m so grateful to your post because it helps me stay focused that a broad realistic list is better than a narrow best case scenario list!
I think one thing people need to realize about safeties and even matches sometimes is that many of those caliber schools, the private ones at least, can have serious Tufts syndrome issues. The dictum “love thy safety” should be amended to “DEMONSTRATE that you love thy safety”, through visits, interviews, whatever it takes.
BurnThis – I think rather than rehash Andison’s mistakes, if you want help with your son’s college list, you should ask about your specific concerns with your son’s proposed list, maybe starting a new thread. For one thing, we are already 2 years down the line in terms of planning – even colleges that might have been excellent safeties in the fall of 2004 when Andi’s son was drawing up his list might have gotten tougher. I think Andison’s biggest mistake was simply that he took colleges that seemed like good “match” schools for granted – he assumed he was certain to be admitted when, as we know in hindsight, he wasn’t.
Anyway it sounds like you are off to a good start. I would note that my experience has been that asking for financial does not make a significant difference --we need aid and my daughter was admitted to several reach colleges where she not only sought financial aid, but also obtained application fee waivers based on financial need. So you should not hesitate to seek whatever aid you think you might be entitled to.
I can think of two reasons right off the bat, both of which I think have been covered by andi and others on the relevant threads. [ul][<em>]The definition of safety was wrong, possibly focusing only on SAT stats. The “Parent Forum defintion” of safety includes BOTH that you are above the 75%ile for SAT/GPA stats AND that the school accepts a high % of applicants (preferably over 50%). andison’s possible safeties had acceptance rates of 22% and 37% - the first wildly off the mark for a safety, the second just barely getting there [</em>]as drummerdude just noted, there was a failure to show them the love. Schools just a tad below the HYPSM cabal can be extremely sensitive to being used as a backup and the harm that can do to their yield [/ul]
But would andi and andison have been satisfied with a true safety?
Frankly, with andi’s credentials, I don’t believe that he could not have gone out on May 1st and got into any number of top 100 schools such as University of Pittsburgh.
I.e., the decision to take a gap year was still a choice, not a circumstance.
Perhaps the schools on andi’s list were as far down the prestige ladder as he was willing to go?
That’s my concern. Of course, we could come up with a list of safeties, but would my son be satisfied with them after working so hard and doing so well? I don’t know that he has any schools on his list that are true safeties (i.e., a school with a 50% or higher admit rate).
I can understand your concern and probably was there one time as well. As parents we want the best for our children. But you must realize that many schools may have a 50% or higher admit rate but they attract a certain type of student. The students select places that match them. It is better to do thorough research on schools (this is sooo important) and find the program, location, culture, financial package that meets a student’s needs than to be preoccupied with anything else :). I don’t normally write on this issue. I am slowly weaning myself from the topic. It is all about finding the match, not the safety.
We could very well have been in a similar position as andi/son a year ago: I only learned about CC after my S#1 had been accepted EA at MIT in Dec. 2004 (where he eventually matriculated). Looking back now at the list of schools he applied to, I realize that for most students, it would look as if he didn’t have any safeties: MIT, Columbia, Stanford, Olin, Harvey Mudd, UC Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD. (Full disclosure: he was accepted at all but Stanford.) However, in our case we are CA residents, and while he couldn’t count on a UC acceptance at one of those 3, it was as close to a sure thing as one could get (roughly 75% of his HS’s senior class is usually accepted at one or more of them, and he was one of the top students in his class, so it was likely). In retrospect I realize we made assumptions that could have resulted in a situation similar to andison’s, but the luck of CA residency probably would have come through for him. I’m just glad I know now what I know now, in time for S#2 (who will NOT be applying to schools in this range next fall, and who WILL have on his list what look to be safeties/likelies that fit him). We just didn’t know any better at the time.
(Oh yeah wait I forgot: S#1 had an acceptance at UC Riverside before he started his senior year! So I guess he did have a true safety, although he hadn’t seriously considered attending UCR.)
andi~so thrilled for andison! Can’t wait to hear good news about how much he enjoys MIT!!
Having been through this process twice, with a D and S1 extremely happy at their schools (each having a big disappointment along the way, but lucky to have choices in the end!) we are not really looking forward to S2 going through it all in these next 2 years. Luckily I have so much information from everyone on CC, as well as D and S1’s experiences, and we will be going into it with our eyes wide open. S2 is well aware of the pitfalls–still there might very well be some disappointment.
Congratulations on all of your perserverence and for opening up to all of us on CC!!