Automatically retaking one’s AP credit seems like conventional wisdom on these forums (seem absurd to race to calculus in high school just so that you can repeat it in college), but it oddly does not seem to be recommended to students who finish calculus BC in 11th grade and then want to take multivariable calculus at a local college in 12th grade. Also, would those who recommend automatically retaking one’s AP credit make the same recommendation in all subjects (e.g. starting in college Spanish 1 after earning a 5 on AP Spanish) or even for non-AP placement situations (e.g. starting in precalculus instead of calculus 1 in college after completing precalculus in high school)?
In any case, retaking one’s AP credit can be a waste of time and tuition that could be spent learning something new. A better approach would be, if the student has AP credit that is allowed to substitute for a course that is a prerequisite for other courses that the student will take, the student can try the old final exams from the college’s course to check his/her knowledge relative to the college’s course standards. That can give a more informed advanced placement decision than blindly always retaking one’s AP credit.
Taking a college class that approximates an AP class (especially if taken online) isn’t grade grubbing. Sometimes it’s to have an easier time getting a decent grade, sometimes it’s baked into the course that students have taken some aspects of the class before, sometimes it’s because the college class goes so much more in-depth than the AP class. Often it is, indeed, the smart thing to do.
I have a lot of kids. All college grads. All took Calculus in high school. Only one had such a facile handle on it that he went on to Calc 3. And linear Algebra. He became a math major, and even he , so wired for mathematics, missed the Calc 1 and 2 theory based classes that his college gave. AP Calc, High school Calc tends to be light on theory. He could differentiate and integrate like a fiend but those proofs… took time and he did have to back track. He was fortunate that he math dept at his school provided a lot of support.
My other kids took calculus in high school and promptly forgot just about everything they learned the instant they walked out of the AP exam. One got a D retaking Calc-yeah, grade grubber, ha, I wish! For my kids that would be a frigging compliment.
Pragmatically, it makes sense to repeat courses to make sure you are strong in those foundations. It’s also become ever so important to get the grades too Without certain GPAs , getting into grad schools, getting certain jobs a problem.
I really wish my kids had been grade grubbers. Yes, most of them retook Calc and not a one was or is a grade grabber
A sample of one. My oldest will be a sophomore at UMich (STEM major) and took BC as a HS junior and MV as a HS senior. UMich gave AP credit for Calc 1 and 2 (5’s), but UMich advised to retake MV/Calc 3 only, even though HS MV grade was an A. Of course, UMich also has incoming freshman take a math placement test, which helps provide (or not) support for a student’s AP scores.
If your high school doesn’t offer AP Physics, then I would not go out of my way to take it online. Taking Honors Physics should be just fine in this case, as your ‘scohol profile’ will indicate that Ap Physics is not on offer.
Having said that, my D’s Freshman roommate at a USN Top 10 Engineering school took pre-calc first semester to get ready for Calc 2nd semester. I suspect it will be extremely difficult to graduate in 4 years, but she was admitted.
In the context of retaking AP credit, retaking in an honors or more theoretical version of calculus is different from retaking in an ordinary version of calculus. Because of the extra theory, it is not really a retake in the same way that retaking in the ordinary version is. But most discussions about retaking calculus are about retaking the ordinary version, not the honors or more theoretical version (if offered).
Some math departments add theory and proof practice in second year math courses or honors versions of those; in any case, a math major will learn the theory behind calculus in real analysis.
In college, did they forget everything they learned in a college course as soon as they walked out of the final exam? If so, then they could have a lot of trouble with following courses that depend heavily on prerequisite courses.
Colleges probably do not have much confidence in high school multivariable calculus courses. Some may have placement-by-exam, but the lack of credit could be an issue. If it was a dual enrollment college course, that would be more likely to get subject credit, but perhaps not at Michigan, which often denies subject credit for transfer courses from other colleges (based on its transfer credit database).
I think the question of testing out of calc at the university level is secondary to if you need it to get into said university to begin with. The reality is that many engineering programs want to see calculus on the HS transcript if it’s offered. What students do with it once they get to college should probably be a different thread.
Relatively few of them explicitly say that on their web pages.
Also, there may be a difference in a holistic review if a student did not take calculus because s/he opted out after completing precalculus in 11th grade, versus if a middle school math placement decision put him/her on the path to take precalculus in 12th grade (i.e. no opportunity without doubling up or summer courses for that student to take it even though it may be offered).
Many engineering schools state that they expect the students to be at Calc 1 as a freshman. This was common in their talks to schools also. Of course you can be accepted without it. . Also most engineers that are just out 5-10 years that I talk with mostly state if they did it again they would reccomend students to retake Calc and get a better foundation to that they learned in high school. There seems to be an extra depth of learning and material in college vs high school.
I wouldn’t bet a dime on most of my kids’ Calc knowledge even after retaking in college. Math just wasn’t there thing. If they ever decided to go into anything requiring a good knowledge of Calc, they’d have to retake it again. Their other subjects? They seem to have retained those. Something about calculus.
A. If a student completes precalculus in 12th grade (with an A), then s/he should repeat precalculus in college before taking calculus?
B. If a student completes AP calculus BC in 11th grade (with an A and a 5), then s/he should repeat calculus at a local college in 12th grade instead of taking multivariable calculus at a local college in 12th grade?
It depends upon how comfortable the student is with that knowledge base, how much s/he is willing to stretch self, and the college’s recommendation. My one son didn’t consider for an instant to retake Calculus and after a brief examination , the math department concurred. Nothing good comes from missing that step. It’s not like repeating the course in college puts a student behind in deny sequencing. Retaking PreCalc might.
My sequence required taking a calc based Physics (Mechanics) first semester freshman year. The course was set up to dovetail with the Calculus course designed for STEM majors. One could not take that sequence if precalculus was in the picture first semester. That was years ago, but I believe my college still has things set up that way for Engineering majors as well as for Math, Math Sciences and Physics.
Then would you agree it is better for students to try the college’s old final exams for the course that can be skipped with AP credit in order to make a more informed placement decision, rather than unconditionally repeat calculus as is the conventional wisdom on these forums? (Some colleges do have additional formalized placement testing procedures for students with AP credit for calculus, so the student can do that if s/he attends such a college.)
@ucbalumnus. Nice try but not me. I have been told this over and over since “a lot” of my base patients are engineers or CS. I have a pretty young clientele. When they found out he was going to Michigan they volunteered to get calculus down pat and they would recommend retaking it. Then I would just ask the next patient coming in and so on. Seriously, this caught me be surprise. My son did take MVC in high school but didn’t get 5 on his AP for Calc and did retake it and he said at Michigan the Calc series is not easy. Even Calc 1 was more in depth. Calc 2 was more of a weed out class and not easy at all etc. He’s glad he did retake it but now past all that as a junior.
So even with a 34 Act with math and science 35 and A in Calc 2 and 3 (MVC), I did call Michigan about placing out (I wanted to know) and they said especially for engineering they want kids to take their sequence. They know their Calc is like world reknown and not easy etc. She said “we want them to take” Michigan’s "math. She said that it is known to not be an easy A but I assume for some it is. Same for Physics. They used his AP scores for getting credit for electives and such. But even taking economics at Michigan then taking engineering economics is like different worlds…
I also do not think it’s grade grubbing to make a pragmatic decision of this sort—repeating a course. It can be crucial to the GPA.
This is often done in foreign language classes too. It’s really a matter of how extreme someone goes. Should someone fluent in s language take Lang 1? I’m sure it happens but I haven’t seen it. But many who have taken AP Language do take it at the Intermediate level rather than jumping in at Advanced and I don’t think that’s Grade grubbing.