While I know this happens at other schools, and other schools aren’t perfect, these are the sorts of admin shenanigans at UPenn that are unfortunate. 15% of the Penn undergrad population does NOT graduate in 4 years - but it looks like admin has NOT been clear with 5th and 6th year undergrad students.
Many schools (even Yale) don’t guarantee fin aid after 4 semesters - but the admin needs to be transparent about it. It doesn’t look like the UPenn admin took a good approach with many current students, and it’s coming back to bite them.
Sidebar: good, comprehensive reporting by the Daily Pennsylvanian here - way to go, student reporters!
Here is an email from Penn today regarding the policy, presumably in response to the article @Cue7 refers to. I have to say that it’s very unusual for any school to give additional need based aid after 8 semesters, so personally I actually think Penn is generous for having that option in specific cases. The article referenced above basically features a single student and their accusation. Regardless, I do think it’s good to have a clearly stated policy.
"It has come to our attention that there is some confusion regarding Penn’s grant-based financial aid program. Penn is committed to meeting 100% of the demonstrated financial need of all eligible dependent undergraduate students – a commitment that has resulted in more than $1 billion in undergraduate financial aid being awarded since 2008.
We understand that clarification regarding the policy on providing eight academic semesters of grant aid support may be needed:
The grant-based financial aid program was created by President Gutmann in 2008. Since 2008, the policy has consisted of grant aid combined with work-study for a total of eight undergraduate academic semesters.
The program and the eight-academic semester policy is outlined on the Undergraduate Admissions website, Student Financial Services (SFS) website as well as in information mailed to incoming students.
Among the aided undergraduate student population, the overwhelming majority complete their undergraduate degrees within eight academic semesters.
SFS has always exercised discretion in the review of grant-based funding eligibility for students with disabilities, high need students, and students with health challenges. This includes consideration of grant-based funding that may exceed eight semesters.
Penn’s academic and administrative leadership supports this policy, which meets Dr. Gutmann’s 2008 University initiative and is consistent with our Ivy peers.
Any questions about the policy should be directed to MaryFrances McCourt, VPFinance@lists.upenn.edu.
MaryFrances McCourt, Vice President for Finance and Treasurer
In my opinion, the issue is not their policy. Schools can decide to only give aid for eight semesters. Totally their prerogative.
The issue is the promises and statements made to students that are being rescinded. They say this policy has been in place since 2008, but the article clearly shows that not everyone (including their own staff) knew what they were talking about. It’s absolutely not acceptable to state to students that their aid will continue, and then backtrack and pretend that this policy has always been applied.
It’s not a single student having the issue, @connections. There’s Wong, who was told “For students who choose to stay a 5th year, there is financial aid available, however, it will have a loan-component built into the package of a few thousand dollars.” There was Dak Song, who said “they told me that as long as I maintained my undergraduate status and had undergraduate classes left to complete in my fifth year, I would get a very similar financial aid package with mostly grants and a few thousand dollars in loans.” An anonymous student even shared their email exchange with financial aid in the article.
The best way to deal with this issue would be to fix the financial aid packages of the students now affected, and then use this policy clearly and consistently for future students.
Agree with @glittervine - the issue isn’t the policy at all. Even schools with vastly more wealth, like Yale, only guarantee financial aid for eight semesters. The issue is transparency, and how the admins conveyed the policy to students. In this case, it looks like they did a poor job, and made some questionable (at best) representations. This isn’t unusual for this admin, and not the first time this has happened.
This is also a good example of the power of student reporting. The admin email came out today, and it looks like it’s responding to the student article that put justifiable heat on the office.
At a place as big as UPenn, it’s important to have watchdogs out there - good job by the Daily Pennsylvanian.
@Cue7 The SFS administration hasn’t handled this well at all. After being bombarded with emails by the affected students, they are now in the process of negotiating with and figuring this out, and according to many posts on the FB group, it seems like there are efforts being made to cover the students that were already promised aid. I dont think they can get away with not honoring their promise at this point. But moving forward I am pretty sure the 8 semester cap will stay.
I dont object their policy change, but the sloppy way it was handled is unacceptable.
This policy is so discriminatory against engineering students. Engineering degree candidates are required to take a minimum 40.5 credit hours to graduate while those in the college are only required to take 32-36 credit hours depending on major. I for one am sick of my kids having to take such heavy course loads. DS insists he needs to take 6-7 courses per semester.
^ yes, engineering and especially dual degree students are expected to carry 7 credits (21-24 credit hours v. the typical 15-16) to graduate in 4 years, which is INSANE. Their financial aid should cover a 5th year (even with loans if need be).
@MYOS1634 That’s not an expectation. It’s something that happens to some students but is not expected of all engineers. I know a couple M&T students who never took more than 5.5 credits in a semester (uncommon and only possible due to having a lot of AP Credits) but know several who never took more than 6.5. I also know many single-degree SEAS students who never took more than 5.5. 7 c.u.'s is very uncommon.
Starting this year there are basically no AP credits anymore so advisers are telling freshmen that they’re supposed to take 7 credits, which is INSANE.
@MYOS1634 That’s concerning and shouldn’t be the case. There’s no reason to take 7 credits per semester. 7 classes per semesters * 8 semesters is 56 credits. Unless you’re planning on taking 56 credits which would only be students pursuing uncoordinated dual degrees (even those could be done in less than 56 credits), there’s no reason to expect to take 7 credits each semester. If your son or daughter is an incoming freshman, I understand your concerns given that this is what advisors are supposedly recommending.
Well, it was an undergrad dean. To more than one dual degree freshman. No more ap credit for most classes, no double counting (check the Fall 2017 requirements). And she said (casually, as if it were normal) 5.5 first semester, 7 afterwards (despite two emails to clarify communication.) So, major freak outs all around, especially since financial aid hasn’t replied about what happens if a student needs more than 8 semesters.
Oh, I thought you were saying all engineers were being told that, not just dual degrees. Either way, that shouldn’t be the case. Have your son/daughter sign up for 5.5 freshman fall and then talk to some upperclassmen for advice when he/she is on campus. No need to stress.
I’ll take your word for it regarding the fall 2017 graduation requirements. If there is no double counting or reduced requirements, that raises the question of why do a coordinate dual degree vs an uncoordinated one. I thought thedp article said dual degrees will be covered for a 5th year, but I can be wrong. SFS isn’t replying because they’re trying to figure this out. They have a lot of people angry at them and want to come up with a solution that is fairest and feasible on their end. They need to take their time and make sure they can do something that works before risking making rushed decisions and then having to reneg on their word later on.
As far as AP Credit, it still appears they offer a lot (http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/apply/freshman-admission/externalexamcredit). For an engineer, the only major change has been AP Bio and AP Chem not receiving credit. The only other changes in the past 4 years have been history exams (US/Euro/World) no longer giving credits, the Comp exams (Lit/Lang), and Stat being a waiver instead of a credit. Also, it’s not like these changes are brand new (I remember the Stat change happening for Fall 2014…not sure about the other two changes).
Also worth noting that Chem offers a for-credit placement exam during NSO that your son/daughter should be able to pass if he/she received a 5 on the AP. I don’t remember if Bio offers a similar exam. Math does as well if your son/daughter took multivariable (or other classes above BC) during high school.
@WhartonPenn2017 the point is that engineering students are required to take more courses (40.5 cu) for their undergraduate degree than students in the college (32-36 cu) and Wharton (37 cu). It isn’t fair of the financial aid department to expect engineering students to complete 40.5 cu in the same time frame as others who only need to complete 32 cu for their undergraduate degree.
@lslmom I understand your point. I was trying to address some of the claims @MYOS1634 made regarding AP credits and changes in the double-counting policy for coordinated dual degree programs.
As far as your point, I think a way to think about it is to realize that most SEAS single-degree students would still graduate in 4 years under the old policy (or when the current policy was not enforced). Even if students are allowed a fifth year of financial aid, most will still try to graduate in four years (I don’t want this to be misconstrued as my saying students don’t like Penn and want to get out; that’s not what I’m saying here). Taking 5 classes per semester gets a student to 40 credits, so unless the student is failing courses or taking a leave of absence, graduation in 4 years is achievable. I’m pretty sure students who take leaves for mental or personal health reasons will have their financial aid extended. The issue is students who fail courses (I’m only talking about SEAS single-degree students here who aren’t pursuing minors).
If I had to guess, students who fail and it’s not a result of mental or personal health reasons will not get financial aid for an extra semester, and I believe as of now, the belief is that students pursuing dual degrees/second majors or minors will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, which I think they’ll find a way to give all these students the financial aid they need because, like you said, it isn’t fair.
^ M&T. I was sent the actual advising sheet after I pointed out the same website you did. It states no double counting. For instance, an SSH class cannot count for us/Global diversity.
Same thing for the ‘no credit’ policy: it’s new and was adopted by various departments independently from one another and independently from the new financial aid restrictions and the new no double counting policy. It’s like a perfect storm and I hope the administration is busy fixing it.
40 credits may be doable, if all goes well and students take 5 credits per semester and never 4 (if, say, they have an internship…) - right of the bat it treats SEAS students differently from College students, as it’s more stressful and more than expected at the College, but think: 46 (with no credit and no double counting)? (Isn’t that 10more, IE., a full year, more than what’s expected from the college?)
Now, some dual degree stusents are also BFS. Add the above…and basically Penn admitted top students to degrees they can’t possibly complete in 4 years, and they’ve just discovered it.
How do you think the dual degree students are reacting?!
(And their parents, some/many of whom don’t have money to pay for a fifth year and worry their kids may not graduate college because of the college they chose and the program they were delighted they got into?)
Some international students are even more freaked out because they’re not eligible for loans at all.
Depending on the double counting situation, dual degree students may have to take 46+ credits (- 50 if no double counting and BFS). They were told that dual degree students would get a 5th year of funding, not to worry. Now, three weeks before they arrive to campus, everything is topsy turvy. Imagine being a rising freshman, a little worried already about the rigors of the dual degree and Ivy League expectations, and learning this…
Some were shell shocked : They were simultaneously told they’re not authorized to take more than 5.5 credits first semester and their adviser casually adds that with the new policies they ‘just have to take 6.5-7 credits per semester’ - while they know 5-5.5 is a normal load, and 6 is overload but common for engineering.
@MYOS1634 Our CBE student will graduate in 4 years. She does not need to take more than 5.5 credits per semester, and would honestly be bored taking any less. If the curriculum dictates 5 courses, she can select an additional. Her research job adds 10-15 hours per week. With the discipline to stay on top of her workload, she has plenty of time for fun.
As an OPA she has been advising students all summer. Although there is a Chem exam, it is highly unlikely that a student would pass the engineering section exam. The content of first semester of Chem goes far beyond the curriculum in the textbook, and CHEM is Penn’s weed out course. Math tracks with AP BC or Multi, so credits are often given. It is not uncommon for Seas students to get a BS/MS in 4.5 years.
We explained early on to our children that year 5 is not our responsibility, it would be theirs. Both her parents have bachelor of engineering degrees (150 credits) and we finished in 4 years.
I think 5.5 is cool (after all it’s the recommended freshman load). 6 is likely doable if well-balanced.
However, how many AP credits did your daughter get? What math course did she start with and did she get retroactive credit for extra class? Or did she start in 104?
On top of that she was still under the “double counting” policy used till now.
Take out all the double counting and AP credit, have her start in 103 or 104 : is your daughter in the same position toward graduating in 4 years?
For those graduating with a bs/ms in 9 semesters, was the last semester funded?
The worry I have is that various ways Engineering and dual degree students had to streamline their requirements have been eliminated alongside the news of that financial aid policy being enforced differently.
All of the following can be used to fulfill requirements in both Wharton and SEAS:
MATH 104
MATH 114
Probability courses (whether taken in ESE or STAT)
ECON 10
BEPP 250
FNCE 101
EAS 203
Cross-Cultural and Global Economy courses
5 engineering courses are used towards Wharton gen eds (so only 2 liberal arts classes for Wharton instead of 7 gen eds).
Also only 2 cross-cultural courses for Wharton instead of 3.
There are several areas of overlap, so I still don’t get what you’re talking about there. I know multiple M&T students who also finished a Master’s in Comp Sci in 4 years and another who finished a separate Master’s in the college. Also know an LSM student who did a Master’s all in 4 years.
^ i would agree with you because that’s what the website indicates and it just makes sense… except all I can tell you is that the adviser said so regarding the various general education requirements under the “starting Fall 2017” policy. So 104, 114, 240…would count for both degrees as they’re specifically required but when looking at the list of non specific requirements (IE., one class in natural science with lab, SSH…)
However all the students you mention were under the old AP policy which probably meant they for a couple credits from AP. The “no credit” policy from some departments is new for freshmen this Fall.
That’s all I know. Perhaps I shouldn’t worry or there may be adjustments as I’m as confused as you are.
