No High School Degree?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi Parents,</p>

<p>I've gotten really good advice from some of you in the past and would really appreciate your help with another dilemma that I have. I spoke with my guidance counselor this morning about graduation requirements and was told that I will need to schedule my classes next year around PE, Health, and Senior Issues. It's very hard for me to take any classes at the high school because I'm currently enrolled full time at the community college as a Running Start student. </p>

<p>I've had such a better year this year at the community college that I am hesitant to go back to high school next year. My teachers are enthusiastic about the subjects they teach (and questions over email are usually answered in less than an hour!), the class sizes are small (usually 12-15 at CC versus 35-40 at high school), and I just enjoy the style of learning at the community college so much more. My study skills are greatly improved and my GPA has risen from 3.6 to 3.9. I'm in hard classes (Calculus, Chemistry, and Writing from Research) but just enjoy going to school so much more because I relate better to the maturity of the students and style of learning (lecture-style, little busy work required). </p>

<p>I've been planning to earn my associate's degree next Spring and then transfer to the University of Washington. However, I am afraid that my original plans will need to be modified. It's hard for me to take any classes at the high school because the schedules conflict. (The high school has a schedule where different classes are at different times depending on which day of the week it is). The classes at the community college are also challenging to schedule because most of them are 2.5 hours twice a week. Next year, I'm planning to complete the physics, calculus, and chemistry series, which will require double labs in Fall and Winter quarter. I think that trying to schedule three high school classes will be nearly impossible with double labs and challenging classes that will require lots of outside of class studying and effort. </p>

<p>I guess the main question I have is, how important is it to get a high school degree.* ** Do you think it is a bad idea to graduate with an associate's degree instead of a high school degree? ** *Right now, I'm pretty set on just transferring to UW, but may apply to Cornell or MIT depending on my grades at the time of application in the fall. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance for your input! I've gotten some really good advice from some CC parents in the past :)</p>

2

<p>Could you take the "busy work" courses in summer school? </p>

<p>I cannot think of a reason why it would be "bad" to have an AA and not a high school diploma, but it would certainly leave flexibility in the future, in case there is some aspect of which we are unaware. I do believe the AA degree can take the place of the high school diploma.</p>

3

<p>Could you take the "busy work" courses in summer school? </p>

<p>I cannot think of a reason why it would be "bad" to have an AA and not a high school diploma, but it would certainly leave flexibility in the future, in case there is some aspect of which we are unaware. I do believe the AA degree can take the place of the high school diploma.</p>

4

<p>Thank you for your prompt reply, somemom!</p>

<p>I did ask her this morning if there was any other way to satisfy the graduation requirements and she said I'd just have to schedule them around my classes :( </p>

<p>Overall, I think I'm just a little shocked to feel like I'm so close to graduating and then realize all of a sudden there are many more hoops to jump through. The school is big and a little disorganized, so there's usually at least a few kids that don't get to graduate due to lack of communication about the requirements. Part of my frustration stems from the fact, that the information on the brochures she gave to me about the program was outdated and incorrect. For health, it was written in the brochure that the community college course "Human Nutrition" would satisfy the requirement, but apparently that policy has changed. Also, I had heard from some friends that it was possible to take senior issues online, but apparently the principal decided to discontinue that policy last year too.</p>

<p>I guess I just feel a little disappointed that the guidance counselor did not inform me of the changes when I planned my schedule at the beginning of the year with her. I understand that she is very busy (she's responsible for about 500-600 students schedules), but it took a lot of hard work to plan my schedule, and it would have helped if the information I used was correct.</p>

5

<p>It's truly unfortunate that your guidance counselor didn't inform you of the gaps at the beginning of this year, if she had, you might have been able to apply early to some colleges and just head off next fall to a 4-year school. That might not be a bad idea to look into for spring semester of next year, although I suspect most schools will want early entrants to come in in the fall. </p>

<p>Another alternative would be to get your GED combined with the AA degree - most colleges will accept the GED in lieu of h.s. diploma so that might cover all your bases. </p>

<p>Since you mentioned online classes, you might look more into those sorts of programs as well (one to look into is at <a href="http://www.ucgateways.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.ucgateways.com&lt;/a> - I know they have an online health option there. If you are not at a participating high school, they cost about $300). I can't imagine why you couldn't satisfy a PE requirement with a CC PE class. Perhaps you could also arrange to do an independent study project of some sort for the senior issues class.</p>

<p>Finally, I'd have your parents contact both the guidance counselor AND the principal and put a little bit of polite pressure on them about this --- that might lead to a little more flexibility, especially if the requirements have clearly changed.</p>

<p>PS: The U of Washington admissions requirements have recently been modified a bit, so be sure to check out the new ones to be sure you understand the new comprehensive review process they'll be taking.</p>

6

<p>Just call yourself a homeschooler and make your own transcript and diploma.
Most colleges do not require a GED.</p>

7

<p>Carolyn's idea is excellent, but I'd add to it talking to your advisor at the Community College. The counseling and testing center there will almost certainly have options for you that the high school will hesitate to put out there for you even if they know about them.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you. I hate to see people wasting their time like that!</p>

8

<p>I like that idea atomom! :) Ctymom, VERY good idea as well.</p>

9

<p>How about a meeting with your parents & you & the administration. Basically, they are getting ADA $ for you being a student in the district and they transfer some of that $ to the CC for teaching you. I think they "make" money on you, so it would be in their best interests financially to keep you running start.</p>

<p>Can you ask if they can allow the Nutrition course to qualify? Show they the brochure you were given- they sound as bad as the IRS, giving advice and not standing behind it.</p>

<p>My D considered running start, as she transferred schools in 11th grade and it is tough to get into the whole social scene. Her school has been so flexible that she will be able to graduate this June, early, with a diplome. Partly this is due to the rigourous schedule at her former school giving her tons of transferable credits, but mainly it is due to a peach of an understanding administrator working with us for the best interests of my D. She is doing one class independent study and had to really convolute her schedule to meet the specific grad requirements of the new school, but has more than enough basic credits, so they got creative.</p>

<p>Do not give up, ask to be given special consideration, if they told you class #1 works for that requirement, ask them to count it, ask them about summer school at other local high schools if any offer it.</p>

<p>Ask if you can take a sport class at the CC for PE credit. You may need to go above the counselor, not like going over her head with hostility, but rather asking who might have the authority to make an exception. You probably cannot make exceptions to WA state requirements, but you can likely get them from your specific district requirements- even if you have to go to the school board.</p>

<p>One word of wisdom- don't be angry, upset, annoyed, instead be kind & sweet & ask for their wisdom & assitance, and get some one on your side. Yes the system can be a joke, but ya gotta work within it.</p>

<p>Also, don't ask to simply be excused from everything,n ask how you can still meet their requirements whilst continuing where you are. Be respectful of the system and some one may be more likley to stretch the rules for you. </p>

<p>It will all come down to finding some one in power who is interested in helping and who has the authority to do so.</p>

<p>Good Luck!</p>

10

<p>Wow, thanks for all of the very helpful replies!</p>

<p>I will make sure to go over this with my parents tonight and see if we can schedule a meeting with the counselor and maybe the principal too. This certainly won't be the first meeting we've had with the guidance counselor. To put it shortly, I did not take the conventional academic route in high school. When I took a math class during the summer, I was met with complaints of "just making more work for them" instead of the enthusiasm and encouragement I expected. Last year, when I got accepted to NASA SHARP, I realized that I would need to miss the last few days of school. They informed me that I would not recieve credit for any of my classes that year because of attendance requirements. Again, I jumped through more hoops and got each of my teachers to sign individual agreements that I would complete all of the required work before I left. Eventually, they agreed that as long as I completed the work I would be able to go. This time, I guess we will have to find another solution to the problem. I realize that I am probably not the easiest student to guide academically and maybe even a little too advantageous at times, but really I didn't expect it to be this hard to graduate high school, especially if I've been passing all my classes. </p>

<p>I will make sure to be clear that I do not expect nor want to be exempt from the requirements, I want to earn my degree and put just as much work into it as my peers. I'm not sure about the PE requirement, but maybe I could ask if they will allow PE credit from the CC. I'm pretty active in sports anyway, but only the school sports count if I want to waiver out of PE. I did do cross country with my friends in the Fall, but again it's hard to schedule the classes with the high school's schedule. Luckily, I was able to take my Fall quarter classes in the morning, but this spring I have a Physics lab that conflicts with track practices :(</p>

<p>Carolyn, it is funny that you mention the UCCP site...I am currently taking an online AP class from there and have found it to be great. The lectures are interesting (they remind me of the history channel) and the teacher adds his unique opinion to the summaries of the historical periods. I don't expect to recieve credit for the history class I am taking this year, but if they were to okay the health maybe I could also get credit for history. I'm not sure why they changed the policiy to not allow the credit for the online health class anymore, but maybe I can ask when I meet with the counselor again. </p>

<p>I think if all else fails, I will just stick with my original plan and get my associate's degree and also GED. I'm not sure if I need to study for the GED, I think it is just a standardized test? I will have to research more about it. The only disadvantage I have thought of is that my family will not get to see me graduate from high school. Education is one of the highest priorities in my family and I expect that my graduation will be as important to my parents as it is to me. However, I imagine that the community college also has some sort of graduation ceromony that I could invite them to. </p>

<p>Do you know if the associate's degree would look bad to selective colleges? I think that it would be okay to transfer to UW because it is instate, but I don't know if I would have to apply as a transfer student at Cornell and MIT. If I do apply to Cornell and MIT, I think I would prefer to apply as a freshman. I guess I'll have to research and maybe write a few emails about that too.</p>

<p>Anyway, I will have to run the idea by my parents tonight and I'll make sure to include all of the great options you guys have suggested. It's really helpful to have all the input from the CC parents:)</p>

11

<p>Why not invite your parents to read this thread with you and comment on everything here as a beginning? I'm sure, having reared a child like you (you seem very intelligent and mature already), they will have much to contribute that is both interesting and balanced. </p>

<p>The problem sounds as if it might be that your school is a very in-the-box school, as was my son's. They can be hard to sway. You'll need your parents' support whether you end up working with the school or beyond it.</p>

12

<p>You definately need to get the principal involved in this. My son got all PE waived, as well as the Family Life class (required for seniors) he was doing online that the teacher totally dropped the ball on. The principal was astonished at the teacher's performance and waived that class for a whole bunch of kids in the same boat -- high achievers with demanding schedules.</p>

13

<p>If you want to take the GED test, I'd suggest that you go through a prep book. Though most people consider the test fairly easy, it is not the same type of test as the ACT or SAT. In the science and social science sections, in particular, you are expected to know certain facts--not just interpret readings or data on the test itself. (my son has a prep book, though he decided not to do the GED--maybe it is just that book, but the science seemed pretty hard to me).</p>

14

<br>


<br>

<p>Hmmm...interesting. This got me thinking - what is to stop every high school dropout in the country from doing exactly that? The high school graduation rate could instantly jump to 100%. Is there any agency that regulates or certifies this sort of thing?</p>

15

<p>Update: I did discuss the issue with my parents tonight, but neither were very thrilled with the overall situation, which is understandable. I did print out the discussion from here but they were too busy tonight and I hope they will get a chance to read them later. I’m not sure if they’ll actually come participate in the discussion, but maybe they’ll be less busy later on. </p>

<p>I think that my mom is nervous about me not getting a high school degree because of my past tendencies to take the untraditional route. When we do get in disagreements it’s usually because “I think that rules do not apply to me.” I think she is frustrated that I’m unlike the other kids and always seem to find other ways to accomplish the same goals. I also think that she is worried because she does not want me to regret the decisions that I will soon make, several years from now when I am older and reflecting on the past. While I do understand that it’s pretty much impossible to change past decisions and I am glad that she wants me to be happy, I think sometimes you just have to take risks. </p>

<p>I think that the next step I will probably take is to schedule a meeting with the guidance counselor and administration. While I am appreciative that my mom is willing to stand up for me, I am also a little nervous. She is a very strong-willed person and is the type that all cashiers hate to deal with;) She is the type that will argue and plead until finally they will give in. I think I’m just nervous that the argument will turn ugly and that even if we do end up reaching a solution, the guidance counselor will still have a sour taste in her mouth when it comes time for me to apply to college (which I think include guidance counselor recommendations.). *Do any of you on CC know if the guidance counselor recommendations carry a lot of weight? *</p>

<p>Ideally, I would love to graduate with a high school degree and associate’s degree at the end of my senior year, but if that is not possible I think I will continue in Running Start. I’m taking a lot of sequence classes (Calc, Physics, and Chem) that I would like to finish and I believe earning my associate’s degree would make it easier to transfer to UW. </p>

<p>Thanks again to all of you for your advice! It’s been really helpful and I hope that this doesn’t discourage any future Running Start students. It’s really been a great experience from me, but this recent development has just sort of thrown me for a loop.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
This got me thinking - what is to stop every high school dropout in the country from doing exactly that? The high school graduation rate could instantly jump to 100%. Is there any agency that regulates or certifies this sort of thing?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The regulation or nonregulation of homeschooling is a state matter. Some states do nothing, while others do a little and still others quite a lot. There is no evidence that the outcome (measured by standardized test scores) varies, though, whether there is regulation or not. Homeschoolers as a group score higher than traditionally schooled students.</p>

<p>In other words, there is no evidence that this is a real problem. If it were, believe me it would be trumpeted by those opposing homeschooling. Homeschooled students go on to college and do just fine. There is no reason to spend money to have government try to fix a problem that doesn't exist. I think it has its hands full with the public schools.</p>

<p>The real "regulation" comes from three factors. One, a student's desire to learn and for a good future. Having more input into one's education can spur that. Two, parental love. From years on homeschooling boards, all I've seen is parents who work very hard researching and finding the best programs for their kids. The few parents who don't care about their kids aren't going to be the ones who choose to homeschool. Since the local public school was doing a lousy job educating my daughter, I would vehemently object to their telling me what I had to teach and how. (Well she is in college now, but you get my point.)</p>

<p>Finally, there are colleges. They require standardized test scores and more documentation the more selective they are (generally -- the handful of really documentation-crazed places aren't the most selective!). This can be SAT IIs, CLEPs, APs, outside courses, course descriptions, work samples, etc. </p>

<p>If there are instances where a high school diploma is necessary, whoever thinks this is important can ask. Better yet would be to have a basic skills test because a high school diploma from an institutional school is no guarantee of ability to read, write, do math, etc.</p>

<p>I don't mean to bash nonhomeschooling, because different approaches can be better for different students and situations. I homeschooled one of my kids and not the other one, for instance. There is no "one size fits all" education out there. </p>

<p>If you would like other insights into this question, there is a homeschooling board on CC.</p>

17

<p>My question wasn't about the merits or challenges of homeschooling as a method of learning but about the notion that all you have to do to become a "home-schooled" high school graduate is to declare yourself to be one -- write your own transcript and diploma and there you go - instant high school education! No need for anyone to ever be a drop-out again, just call yourself home-schooled.</p>

18

<p>The implication of your question is that you think there must be governmental oversight of homeschooling to assure that there is an actual education going on. ("Is there any agency that regulates or certifies this sort of thing?" clearly implies you think there should be one. If not, I miss your point.) And my answer was that it isn't necessary; the hypothetical abuse you bring up is precisely that. For any situation in which a real education is needed -- college admissions and military recruitment are the two that come to mind -- there are ways to make sure it has happened. </p>

<p>Governmental oversight would at best be a waste of money, at worst, it would cut into the effectiveness of homeschooling. </p>

<p>Homeschooled students don't create their own transcripts anyway. It is done by the parents or an umbrella school. I don't see what good it would do for the student and parents to come up with a bogus transcript. OK, the student can call himself a graduate. So what? To be treated as one (to get into college or the military), more proof is required. And why would a parent want to compromise a child's future by not providing an education?</p>

<p>Have I heard of a SINGLE case where someone claimed to be homeschool graduate and had a false transcript? No. Have I heard of cases where public school grades were changed to "graduate" kids that actually weren't eligible? Yes, I have.</p>

<p>There MAY be a problem with diploma mills used by star athletes who can't cope with actual education. But this is a form of private schooling, not homeschooling. It is an area that the NCAA Clearinghouse is investigating right now. But my personal experience was it was harder to document things for the NCAA than for the Ivy League school my daughter attends. So I don't know if this is a real problem or not.</p>

19

<br>


<br>

<p>I was thinking more about a high school dropout applying for jobs that require a high school diploma. Beyond the home-made "transcript", what are these other ways to make sure that the education actually occured? (I'm not arguing - I really don't know the answer and am curious to find out).</p>

20

<p>I suspect you are being facetious- however- if you are a homeschooler, every year you must correspond wiht the state and district as to the course of education and steps towards graduation.
Many test scores and paperwork submitted from what I can remember of friends who homeschooled.
Each state has own requirements- but there are safety nets in place to make sure students are following a course of instruction- otherwise they would be truant.
Mini would know about this more than I - although he had his daughter attend some classes at a local college-as well</p>