<p>mikemac - that's the reason I didn't get angry when I saw him "practicing" recovering from an out-of-control situation on ice. If he continues to do that, then in a real loss of control situation, his body should be able to react automatically. I agree wholeheartedly with your admonition to AVOID the situations that could lead to problems. As a matter of fact, that's the tactic I'm going to take with my son from now on. That was good advice.</p>
<p>When I learned to drive, there was a big emphasis on something called "defensive driving" which I don't hear much about these days. I still practice it today, wondering "what-if" the car coming in the other lane were to drift into mine, or "what-if" a kid were to run out from behind the parked car ahead or "what-if" other situations were to occur. It's a constant thing. With most people I know, when they go to change lanes they begin the process of looking around to see where the other vehicles are. I am CONSTANTLY keeping a "map" of the other vehicles in my head, even before I decide to change lanes. Seems to be a lost art these days.</p>
<p>Sorry Mike, I did not see your post when I posted above. I understand your point of what to do when a mistake is made and not panicking and so forth and so on. I am not sure that is what I was referring to so much though. I meant, for instance, when I have been driving with my daughter with her permit, I have to emphasize certain things and explain the IMPORTANCE of these things because a lapse in judgement can have dire consequences, unlike other decisions she makes daily. For instance, I have gone over how she must slow down on curves (we have rural two lane roads) and that the car cannot negotiate the turn at the speed she is going and then I mention that it is not like she can say "oops" but that she can have a bad accident if she does not heed this advice. Another one is teaching her how slow you must go down our dirt road which is mountainous with snow/ice on it and again, a mistake will put her in a ditch or worse. So, I am not so much talking about what to do when you make a mistake but explaining the importance of judgement when driving as it is way more serious than any responsibility she has had to date. The consequences of errors in judgement are far greater. So, I am not talking mistakes so much as being vigilant and careful and serious about each move she makes because each move can cause a problem if not made with good judgement. </p>
<p>Last night in a small city, where the laws are to stop for those in crosswalks, and it was very dark, I had to go over how slow she must go because it is very hard to see people at the crosswalk and a mistake can cause death. Maybe I am being overly pessimistic but I want her to realize the serious nature here. You don't sit there singing along to your I Pod (my daughter is a serious singer and music is a big deal in car rides since she was an infant), but you look out for these things and think about it. One night recently, I let her drive home from dance which is a 25 mile route and it had started to snow and I don't know how many times I had to tell her to drive way slower as the conditions were deteriorating (imagine my concern about what she will do when I am not there to make her), and next thing I know, I see a bright white light ahead in our lane and I have no clue what this is in the darkness of the countryside, with poor visibility with snow coming down and what would have a white light and not a red one in our own lane....a car coming the other way? As we came upon it, it was a farm tractor driving on the road at night with a bright light and had I not forced her to slow down, we would have hit it. So, yes, she gets these lectures from me about being aware and slowing down when it is snowing and there are unforeseen obstacles like this and what can happen if you do not use supreme caution when driving. I think young kids can't imagine anything happening to them and in the case of driving, it does not take too much to cause a serious accident....even being aware of another bad driver on the road. </p>
<p>So, I understand teaching how to deal with compensating for mistakes but I was talking more of being cautious and not using poor judgement on an ongoing basis. I guess maybe I point it out a lot but that's me. When she is merging onto a highway and is looking over her shoulder at oncoming traffic, does she realize the car is still going forward at a high speed and her eyes are off the front of the car and it is now driving toward the guardrail? I go over and over what those choices can cause in a mere instance. I guess that was what I am referring to which I am not sure is the same point you are making which is also well taken, naturally.</p>
<p>Where we live, a driver can get a 'restricted license' after they turn 15. Neither of our boys were organized enough to arrange that and they both got their RLs around their 16th birthdays.</p>
<p>On a RL, a driver cannot have unlicensed or other RL drivers in the car. He must not drive after 10 pm. The car insurance is null and void if either of these conditions are broken.</p>
<p>If the RL driver takes a higher level defensive driving course, he can get his 'full' license after 12 months. If he doesn't take that course, he must wait 18 months to sit his full driver's exam. Most kids do not get their full licenses until they are 18. However, most parents allow their children to break the restrictions of the RL. We went along with that for S1, until we found out the insurance didn't cover him.</p>
<p>We know a woman who have had to sell her house to pay for the accident her son had when he took her newer BMW down to the 7-11 after 10 pm. He hit a newer Mercedes and totalled both cars. No one was hurt, but the insurance did not cover the <em>choke choke</em> $200k + cost of replacing the cars. </p>
<p>btw Soozie: Your comment about the unfailing faithfulness of your older daughter reminded me of my brother, Baby Jesus, The Perfect One. As small children, we locked him in a trunk with a loaf of bread because we were convinced that His Perfectness was the reason our mother was so annoyed with her 'normal' children. </p>
<p>Of course, being goodness and light, he had unconditional compassion. He stepped right into that trunk. Smiling like an angel.</p>
<p>Needless to say, this clever plan of elimination didn't make Mother any less annoyed.</p>
<p>Cheers, I must admit the thing about the differences in children. I have learned over the years, that my older daughter is the one who is atypical and that the younger one is more of a typical teen girl (in many respects that have nothing to do with this thread). When talking to other parents, their teens were saying or doing similar things as my second teen does. It is just that the first one never said or did the things this one does but I realize she was not a typical teen in this way. I know that a lot of my younger one's behaviors are typical of many kids. I was spoiled with the first one and got off easy. I like to say that I shudder to think that I could be dealing with two teenage girls right now who talk back to me and all that wonderful stuff teens can do but I only have one who does. I know it is typical, don't worry. I know the other one was extremely easy and she is not normal that way. Believe me, I know. However, it is way easier as a parent to deal with a responsible, honest, respectful and cooperative kid. I love them both the same but one is more challenging in various ways. It is what it is. I love what I've got.</p>
<p>Digmedia, I understand your point well. My take on driving has always been slightly different from the norm as I have logged approximately 400,000 miles on a motorcycle , luckily without a collision. I have survived by always believing the car or truck I'm sharing the road with is at all times consciously trying to kill me. Defensive driving skills, the ability to appreciate and process risk factors only come with time behind the wheel and my state's requirements to get a license are ridiculous. I believe it is less than ten hours if taught at a driving school, and may be as few as 7. D was told- "Yes. That IS what is required by the state. But I'm not the state, now am I?" As parents we all have to police this because the state sure won't. At least mine doesn't.</p>
<p>Dig, my heart cringes when I hear stories like this , and I hear them far too often. I can't for a moment imagine the pain of the parents. My prayers are with the family and friends. Godspeed.</p>
<p>Digmedia, as sad as this is, it is good to be reminded, over and over and over again, how quickly a life can be lost. Probably one life can be saved, by one parent reminding one child, that a car is basically a murder weapon in the hands of an irresponsible driver. So I think it is good to post these things on parents' boards. I bet that every one of us has had this experience of hearing of kids you know, or kids that go to the local school, either killing someone, or dying themselves, in a car accident. In our community, we have witnessed both horrors several times in the last two years.</p>
<p>I am appalled by the quality of the driving of the students at our local high school. "Back in my day", very, very few students had cars of their own. I sure didn't--even though my parents were comfortably well off. We were allowed to borrow our parents' cars sometimes. I remember one girl (the student body president) who got a car on her 16th birthday--one girl! I think kids think of driving as their right, their bodies as indestructible, and everyone else as owing it to them to get out of their way. Remind, remind, remind, nag, and if necessary restrict driving privileges completely at the first sign of bad driving.</p>
<p>Just a note re: cell phones. I tell my daughter to leave it in the back seat of the car. That way she is not tempted to answer it if it rings and yet it's there if she needs to pull over and make a call.</p>
<p>And, when my own daughter got her learner's permit at the age of 15 she told me, and I quote, "We're too young to be driving at this age. Our heads aren't in the right place." Doesn't that tell us something?</p>
<p>Like Susan's, our D fell back into the calling routine when she came home during winter break. She did so without asking...so I was very grateful for not having to rev up for the lecture. :) D2 will be taking driver training during the summer...something to look for to! :o</p>
<p>Two things:
Hugs to Digi, and hugs to your kids. </p>
<p>Second -re: cell phones when driving, eating when driving, etc. My dad took the pragmatic view: he realized that, sooner or later, I would eat while driving and do things like talk on the phone while driving (he's had CAR phones since before I was born - upgraded slowly through the years to the current cell - but he never gets in accidents), so he would teach me how to do it safely. I drove, he taught - and I learned how to eat and drive a stick at the same time - with him beside me, coaching, for a solid hundred miles. (I also got the most thorough on/off highway training ever - think going around a cloverleaf literally dozens of times to get the shifting down.) Six years and no accidents later, it would appear as if the training paid off. </p>
<p>I also can't tell y'all how many times I heard, "It's not you that's going to kill you. It's the other guy that will do it." Slight variations, such as "Think about it - about half of the people on the road at 1 am are drunk" were also part of Zeus's lectures. It's perspective - I know that, when tired, I can keep myself out of an accident - but I can't prevent the nutjob from hitting me. So I don't drive. </p>
<p>Finally - may I suggest used Volvos for those looking to get their kids a safe car but don't want to give them a brand-new vehicle? Can't tell you how many stories I've heard about people in Volvos who hit SUVs, rolled down embankments, or the like, and walked away from the accident. The car might be totalled, but the passengers are fine.</p>
<p>I am 21 years old and I have had my license since I was 17. To this day I have not felt comfortable being the passenger in a car driven by someone else in my age group (except for my brother). The others I've driven with drove too fast, didn't pay attention, etc. Some of my high school classmates wrecked their cars within a month of getting their license. I've been in one accident (someone crashed into me after running a red light and damaged one of my doors). The two drivers that made me more nervous than anyone else were pilots. One was an AFROTC cadet who had been flying planes for a few years and the other was a former Marine Corps pilot. I actually went flying with the cadet. I felt more safe in the plane.</p>
<p>Learning to drive with my parents was terrible. I went driving with my mom only twice during the whole year that I had my permit. She would get a bad attitude after being in the car for 2 seconds. And my dad made driving seem as complicated as brain surgery. The very first time I ever drove with him I hit the accelerator too hard and he gave me a 20 minute lecture on the mechanics of pressing the accelerator. It didn't take long for my driving skills to surpass his.</p>
<p>First of all - I want to say how sorry I am about the accident that prompted the initial post. I still have vivid memories of an accident that killed a high school classmate of mine, on his way to school -- NOT the fault of the teen in that case, but of a driver of a large truck who lost control.</p>
<p>But I do want to say in defense of teens that not all teens drive badly. I honestly feel that my daughter (age 16) is now a much better driver than I am these days, because she drives as carefully as I do, but has faster reflexes than me and much better night vision. Of course the poor night vision/slower reflexes are part of the process of aging... but the fact is that most of my daughter's classmates are safer with her at the wheel than they are with me, and I've told many parents that. I knew as soon as I gave my daughter her first lesson after getting her permit that she would be a good driver - because she really was careful and insisted on practicing various maneuvers in a parking lot over & over & over again until she felt she really had everything perfect. Of course she made various mistakes as a new driver, but these days I don't worry too much about her driving. I'd note that her father is a terrible driver, and I'm not so happy about the way her older brother drives (too fast!) - so it was actually a relief for me when she was driving on her own rather than as a passenger with certain relatives. </p>
<p>I really think it depends on the kid - and of course it also depends on the quality of teaching and the model provided by the parent. By "model" - I mean if the parent is going to drive down the road yakking on the cell phone, the kid probably will too. </p>
<p>Of course kids need guidance when it comes to driving .... and I don't want my comments to be taken as diminishing the seriousness of the issue... I just wanted to point out that teenagers don't exactly hold a monopoly on bad driving. That's why it is so important for us to drum in the lesson of watching out for the other guy ..... In fact I think that was the biggest weakness my daughter had as a beginning driver was that she didn't always anticipate some of the really stupid thing other drivers do.</p>
<p>Regarding driving on ice and general accident prevention training: there are several driving schools (not preliminary drivers ed, but driving schools) that have skid-car training classes. My husband and I and both kids took skid-car training at Pro Drive in Portland, OR. Skid cars are regular cars that are on casters, so that they behave as if you're driving on a sheet of ice. (<a href="http://www.prodrive.net/driver_safety.shtml#1%5B/url%5D">http://www.prodrive.net/driver_safety.shtml#1</a>) </p>
<p>Since the class I have several times been in the car with the kids (and my husband) when I have seen them do something that they learned in the class, and in one case, I watched my son maintain control and prevent an accident when a driver in front of him skidded on wet leaves. </p>
<p>They also have a much more controversial course in "high-performance driving," in which you can take your car onto their track, with an instructor in the passenger seat, and drive very fast. We also sent the kids to that course (after we took it ourselves) because we felt that they would drive too fast and experiment on public roads otherwise---since both my H and I did that when we were in high school and college. (Neither of us think that there are ANY kids who don't drive too fast sometimes, BTW.)</p>
<p>My son in particular was quite shaken by the course. He drove my husband's very fast car on the track (at 120 mph, I might add, faster than his sister or my H--he turned out to be quite gifted at managing the car) and then drove back to Seattle with my husband. During the trip our son said "I can't believe how stupidly some people drive. There's no safety equipment. The turns aren't banked. They tailgate. They never know when some idiot is going to slow down unpredictably. It's just not safe to drive faster than the rest of traffic."</p>
<p>calmom, you are absolutely right. I have friends my age whose driving scares me but I have no problem being a passenger with any of my Ds driving. This scenario posted by the OP has happened in our community as well, sadly more than once. Bad, or reckless driving doesn't stop when they leave their teen years either. Family friends lost their son in an accident about a year and a half ago in a horrific accident with a friend of his at the wheel. The friend was seriously hurt and is facing many charges. These aren't teenagers, either, they're young men who were playing in the NHL. If any of you are in the Atlanta area, you probably know who I mean. I think parents have to be vigilant about instilling the importance of safe, and defensive, driving EVERY single time you drive. For most kids, it will work; unfortunately for others, it won't.</p>
<p>These type situations replay themselves over and over. Upsetting and tragic, they stab to the core of any conscientious parent. I'm a strong believer that FAITH is a great help through these times. Our local churches do an excellent job of celebrating the life of all those who have passed on. One large catholic church has posters made of the deceased and their loved ones, happy times, and have them posted on all the walls of the santuary. Tragedy, can strike anyone, anytime.
Just to add to the ongoing converstion, the new restrictions concerning junior licenses have indeed helped reduce fatalities.</p>
<p>TODAY, debate begins in the Colorado legislature on new restrictions on the teen driving laws. This debate was already scheduled before the accident. Colorado already has graduated licensing, but they are adding provisions that a teen driver cannot drive with other teens in the car for the first 6 months, then can only have 1 teen passenger for the next six months. The basic provisions are all agreed upon, but what's taking so long is figuring out all of the exclusions (emergencies, etc).</p>
<p>This morning, as I took my son to the airport to go for a college interview, I passed the crash site. I passed it again coming home. Both times there were people gathered there, someone had built a makeshift memorial, and there were tons of flowers.</p>
<p>You think, "this is our neighborhood" and "there's no place that you can really go fast here" and "it's only to and from school." But it can still happen. </p>
<p>Actually, since the accident occurred Wednesday afternoon, the reaction here in the neighborhood has grown as people realize that it was a neighbor's kid. It seems like everyone (except me) knew these kids.</p>
<p>She WAS wearing a seatbelt, but the collision was such that the Suburban collided with the Neon on the side of the car where the girl was in the front passenger seat. The other seriously injured girl was on the same side of the car in the back seat.</p>
<p>Lexasmomkbj, our worst accident with the kids was a cell phone instigated incident as well. A hand free device was involved. The car was in a no signal zone so the call did not go through which distracted the driver, and.... Well, no one was hurt but a lot of property damage and we/the insurance com were sued for a million dollars. We also lost our insurance and nearly had to join the assigned risk pool which would have cost us a fortune. We are currently at risk for the same type of situation again. I do not let our senior drive at this point because we don't trust him and want to keep him alive, and we really cannot afford another hit on our insurance. I don't when I'll let another kid drive our cars without one of us in them. </p>
<p>Digmedia, every year something like this happens in any given area, and eventually kids you know are involved. I know how you feel. I still get upset thinking about some of the accidents involving kids we knew. It's really the lack of experience that causes a number of these problems, that and an overconfidence. I just hope that as they get older, that they get more cautious. I remember my one son who used to be so reckless when he first started to walk. He was only 9 months old, and was all legs and no brains. After several spills, he got much more cautious, but you know, he was as cautious as my one year olders were at that same age. I think a little time tempers the impatience and adds some wisdom. Statistically, older new drivers are safer that the just 16 variety. I am letting time do a little work for me with the kids. </p>
<p>A thought and prayer for all of your drivers. May they get through these years safely.</p>
<p>My D had an incident with the car that my H and I are thrilled about. She was backing out of a parking space, and her side mirror collided with her neighbor's. She got scared, and came directly home.</p>
<p>We naturally made her (with H in car) go back, showed her how to leave contact info for the owner of the other car, etc. Subsequently we had her write a letter of apology, and pay for as much as she could of the repair cost to both our vehicle and the other person's vehicle.</p>
<p>We're both thrilled this happened - it taught her she wasn't exempt from accidents, and she learned the consequences. She's more careful now, that she realizes accidents can happen - and not just to other people.</p>
<p>But we didn't restrict her driving priveleges, since we felt she did something incorrectly (i.e., backing up wrong) but didn't do anything wrong (driving too fast, etc.). Plus she came to us right away for help.</p>
<p>That first little accident, that only causes property damage, can be such a blessing. It's such a great learning experience.</p>
<p>A very sobering thread and one that just underscores my concerns and reminds me of my fears. I am so sorry for all who have lost their lives far too early. There really are no "right" words to say when someone's child loses their life.</p>
<p>digmedia, I'm so sad that this nightmare occurred, but I am glad you posted about it. Also, thank you to all who've shared their experiences - it's good food for thought for those of us who have kids that will be turning 16 soon.</p>
<p>Fortunately, where we live in NY there is now a graded license program, and it's something I need to familiarize myself with soon.</p>
<p>hayden, my daughter had a very similar incident about a week or so after getting her license - she scraped another car while pulling out of a parking space, damaging the molding on the side of the car. She left a note on the car with her cell phone number (not our home number) - and ended up dealing with the car owner entirely on her own. It cost about $80 to fix the damage - my daughter paid the body shop directly using her credit card. The owner of the other car was very impressed with my daughter's honesty.</p>
<p>I think the way my daughter handled this is part of the reason that I feel so confident in her abilities as a teen driver. I kept wanting to intervene - of course I was afraid that the other car owner take advantage of my daughter -- but I decided to stay out of it and let my daughter handle things on her own, figuring that if she found herself in over her head, she'd come to me for help. It wasn't simply the fact that my daughter left the note - it was the fact that she took responsibility every step of the way. </p>
<p>I do think that these parking lot bumps are pretty common -- it's partly a new driver thing, because they don't have quite as good a sense of how to maneuver the car in and out of tight spaces --- but I agree that it's not at all an indication of carelessness or dangerous driving.</p>