Nominations to more than on Acad

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>I have a firm first choice; I simply recognize the possibility that some influence may at some point cause that to change. My number one goal is to serve in this Nation's military, and I know that I will be happy if I end up at any of the Academies which can prepare me to do so. I have made decisions, one of which is my first choice Academy. I don't think there is anything wrong with my mindset. I have my convictions and am ready to commit, and I'm very pleased with where I am.</p>

<p>Also, bulletandpima, i suppose you didn't notice the smiley.. :]</p>

22

<p>How you approach MOC noms depends in large part on where you live. If you are in a competitive geographic area, you may be forced to choose only one SA for each MOC. In some cases, you may be asked to rank. In sparsely populated geographic areas, your MOCs may be scrambling to fill all their allocated spots and you could be nominated to more than one SA by the same person. Bottom line: MOCs have total flexibility provided they comply with the law and there is no "one rule" that fits everyone.</p>

<p>The one piece of advice I will give is that, especially IF you live in a competitive geographic area, you are better off figuring out which SA is your first choice and putting all of your eggs in that basket. If you try to "divide and conquer" (for example, putting USNA first with one MOC and putting USMA first with a another MOC). You may not get an interview or nom for one of them. Essentially, you've left the decision on where you can go entirely up to your MOCs. </p>

<p>I've seen it happen -- candidate put USMA first with 2 MOCs and USNA first with one. He didn't get the interview with the USNA MOC. Thus, his option was limited to USMA. He was very disappointed but, he basically made his choice in selecting USMA for 2/3 MOCs. </p>

<p>You WILL have to make a decision at some point on which SA is right for you. My strong suggestion is to make it as early as possible and, if you are in a competitive region where you WILL be forced to choose, make it before you start applying to MOCs.</p>

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<p>"especially IF you live in a competitive geographic area, you are better off figuring out which SA is your first choice and putting all of your eggs in that basket"</p>

<p>I agree, and this is what I have done.</p>

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<p>My son started this whole process late...he's being recruited by USMA and USNA for athletics. USMA is more aggressive in recruiting, so he put them first; however, he hasn't visited either yet, so really doesn't have a clear choice. Should he switch next week's interview to USNA as first choice so he has each one listed first on separate interviews? He probably won't get to visit USNA until Feb., as the season is beginning in 2 weeks. WP is flying him up on Thurs. He wants to serve his country as a leader, but doesn't have a clear direction as to which SA is a better fit. Advice?</p>

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<p>research the services and career opportunities after the academy. i can't remember who said it, but someone on this forum said earlier that you only spend 4 years at the academy, and then 5 years of active and 3 years reserve. where does he want to lead? ground, sea, or air?</p>

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<p>I'm not knocking the other 4 SA's or sister services, but Navy definitely has the biggest spread of options of all. Ground, Air, Surface, Submarine and Restricted/Unrestricted line billets. If you're unsure of what you want to do after graduation, then Navy will give you a lot more flexibility and time to learn and make up your mind. I liked that aspect of USNA.</p>

<p>I went there convinced that I wanted to be a Submarine Officer, briefly considered the USMC while I was there - something about constantly picking ticks off my body and cleaning rifles during my week at Quantico changed my mind on that course... Ultimately, I chose a Navy NFO billet for service selection. I am pretty happy that I did what I did, and that I had time to explore and learn about all of the possibilities before choosing.</p>

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<p>Lots of options with the Navy - for sure. I think every USNA grad is required to go restricted line upon commissioning. While some will get Marines or flight school - most will go on a ship. </p>

<p>One big difference between USMA and USNA is that West Point is in the business of developing leaders. Upon commissioning a 2nd LT will be leading a platoon. They will learn how to lead and the responsibility that goes with leading. USMA requires 80% of commissioned grads to go Combat Arms.
The Army is a huge organization - there are lots of options there as well - esp later on. Also, with the war - there are more incentives now provide newly commissioned officers with their branch and/or post of choice or grad school. </p>

<p>USNA - while also developing leaders is more technically oriented. Their officers play with machines (planes, ships etc) more than lead people.</p>

<p>There are some excellent books your son may enjoy reading - "Absolutely American" by Lipsky (about USMA), "Duty First" by Ruggero (by a USMA grad), "One Bullet Away" by Fick about the making of a Marine officer.
Stay away from the movie "Annapolis" - haha ;) -</p>

<p>IMO - your son can't go wrong.....either Academy is a great opportunity.<br>
How the nomination process develops may depend on the competition in your area for a specific academy. In some areas USNA is extremely popular and in other areas USMA is extremely popular. He could a nomination to each or to only one academy - all depends on your MOC and the competition.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
JAMO4 wrote: </p>

<p>One big difference between USMA and USNA is that West Point is in the business of developing leaders.</p>

<p>USNA - while also developing leaders is more technically oriented. Their officers play with machines (planes, ships etc) more than lead people.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>All the SA's are developing leaders. Almost all JO's in the Navy, and certainly the USMC, will be leading sailors, airmen or Marines just like their Army brethren and sisters. </p>

<p>This notion of Naval officers somehow being technicians or "playing" with technical gear and not leading enlisted folks is just flat out wrong. I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion. Did you serve?</p>

<p>Not picking on you, just don't think what you're posting is accurate.</p>

<p>Another detail note: It's unrestricted line that the grads are required to choose if physically qualified.</p>

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<p>Trust me - I did not intend to sound condscending at all. </p>

<p>You are right - unrestricted line. There are many navy careers that are off limits to a most USNA grads at least right out of the academy. There is a possibility you could end up on a ship - even if you don't want to.</p>

<p>My own daughter applied to both and we did a lot of learning and research on careers.
But I do contend that that USMA is different - they are developing officers to lead troops into combat. That requires a more "people" focused person. There is a lot of technical equipment that Naval officers and enlisted must operate and maintain that is just not found in the Army. This doesn't make the Navy better - just different. A candidate that likes tinkering and operating machinery - may consider this when choosing USNA over USMA and vice versa.</p>

<p>If you want to fly jets - go to USNA be a Navy pilot. You won't have the same focus on your job as you would as a platoon leader who is responsible for the lives of their enlisted soldier.</p>

<p>One is not better or worse. It all depends upon the individual personality and skills of the candidate.
There is a reason why USMA is considered by many to be America's premier leadership school. That doesn't make it better, just different.</p>

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<p>Much as I hate to, I am inclined to agree with Justamom. There is a very distinct difference between USMA and USNA approach, with USMA getting my nod for a more aggressive, identifiable, prescribed, and structured approach to the task ... and dare I say, with a greater sense of urgency for the very reasons she notes. My sense is a lot less leeway for "creativity", experimentation or maybe it's just that the approach to leadership education is a bit more overt and immediate? </p>

<p>I think I'm inclined to vary DadnGrad's thought ... All the SAs are supposed to be developing leaders. And I hope they are. </p>

<p>I'm quite open to the likelihood that I'm off target here, and welcome more informed opinions, but I do perceive there is a very distinct variation here (and that doesn't even include USAFA which is a whole other gig as well). </p>

<p>Increasingly, I wonder about counseling young people to apply to multiple SAs, recognizing the extraordinary variation among them.</p>

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<p>JAMO4:</p>

<p>I hear you, and I don't mean to get my back up on this, but being a grad of USNA and having "lived the dream" I can tell you from firsthand experience that not only did I serve as aircrew as a Junior Officer, I also led a branch and then division of airmen. First, it was 10 or 12 airmen, and then it was over 40 airmen. That's very similar to what my brother did in his Army tour.</p>

<p>In checking with my brother, a US Army tank driver, now LTCOL, our roles and responsibilities were not markedly different as JO's. You're responsible for your troops' performance on the job as well as making sure that they are well-fed, well-trained, fit, and as highly motivated as possible - not always easy. You learn mostly from the senior enlisted leaders in your unit and the officers to whom you report. </p>

<p>You're also responsible for ensuring that the folks are taking care of their families - especially as you deploy.</p>

<p>I'm not suggesting one is better than the other either, but I'm also suggesting that there are more similarities than differences.</p>

<p>Being a Navy Pilot or Naval Flight Officer does not mean that you won't be leading people - quite the contrary. You're expected to excel in the air as well as on the ground. You're not detached or absolved from leading people because of your warfare specialty. I want to make it crystal clear to those that read this board - especially candidates and their parents - that any characterization to the contrary is inaccurate - honestly.</p>

<p>Been there, done that. 'Nuff said?</p>

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<p>WP - Thanks buddy ;)</p>

<p>If you sat in on interviews and asked USNA candidates what career they would like to have in the Navy - you would hear answers like - I want to fly fighter jets, I want to drive a boat, I want to power a sub .....</p>

<p>If you asked USMA candidates you would hear things like - "I want to lead a platoon - huah!" </p>

<p>Different strokes for different folks. </p>

<p>There are differences between the academies and the services. Their mission statements are different and their honor codes are different - oops - sorry! USNA doens't have an Honor Code. Ahhhh one more difference.</p>

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<p>Meeeeooow! ;)</p>

<p>Gotta throw the BS flag on that last post as well. I interview kids who are often applying to two or more. I always ask them what they want to do in the Fleet AND if WP is one of the choices, I have NEVER heard "I want to lead a platoon - huah!"</p>

<p>It doesn't matter whether you call it a code or a concept - the intent is the same. I spent three years on the Honor Committee at USNA the last year as Recording Secretary. We spent a lot of time with the USMA folks and USMMA folks. Not a lot of difference between the Honor programs.</p>

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<p>Gotta weigh in here with WP and JAM. WP trains combat arms. Leading troops into battle is apples and oranges with being a Navy division officer.</p>

<p>Dad, I don't get too much into the WP questioning but they all seem to want to lead troops. </p>

<p>Honor concept/code. There are major differences.</p>

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<p>Anyone who wants to know more about West Point and leadership development - check out their Cadet Leader Development System (CLDS):
<a href="http://www.usma.edu/uscc/MilPgm/USMACirCLDSApr06.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usma.edu/uscc/MilPgm/USMACirCLDSApr06.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Purpose of the Cadet Leader Development System (CLDS). The Cadet Leader Development System is an organizing framework designed to coordinate and integrate cadet developmental activities across the entire West Point Experience. CLDS Is theoretically informed, goal-oriented, and continuously assessed. It is designed to organize cadets’ experiences so that USMA achieves its institutional goals, accomplished its assigned mission, and realizes its strategic vision. Informed by Army traditions and proven concepts about how to develop officers, CLDS provides the structure, process, and content for cadets’ 47-month journey from “new cadet” to “commissioned leader of character.”

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>Guys, I said my piece and I'm afraid we'll just have to disagree. I respect your right to express your point of view, but I have lived it and seen it, and I'm pretty sure my personal experience is more relevant than the opinion of someone - exception being brother officer USNA69 - who has not experienced it. Please don't take that as a put down.</p>

<p>On the interviews, I only ask "Why?" to get an impression for why one over the other. When it's USAFA vs. USNA, sometimes the candidates don't know that the Navy even HAS airplanes, or believe that USAF pilots are somehow higher in the food chain than Navy pilots. That leads me to question how much homework they've done. I also tell them about the number of astronauts USNA has produced...shameless plug.</p>

<p>If the question is USMA vs. USNA, I stress the Marine Corps as an option. Most of the kids I've interviewed who are considering USMA & USNA are desirous of a Ground role.</p>

<p>WRT the Honor Concept/Code: I don't see much difference in expecting people not to lie, cheat or steal. The whole "nor tolerate those who do" thing aside, what we all want from our brother and sister officers is to be as honest and trustworthy under pressure as they are when the heat is not on. </p>

<p>I had lectures ad nauseam while I was at USNA about the difference between the "Code" and the "Concept". To me, it boiled down to having some leeway to exercise judgment when deciding whether or not to 1) report an offense or, 2) counsel the individual and report the offense or, 3) just counsel the individual. I stand by my view that the deisred end result is the same - we don't want dishonest people placed in positions of trust and leadership.</p>

<p>It just plain old bugs me to hear people say that you can go to USNA and not worry about leading people when you're commissioned. That's not what I experienced, and I while I'll agree that trudging through the jungle/mud/sand with a squad or platoon is different than being a DivO in a ship, sub, or squadron, most of the time, the things you're doing to "take care of your people" - Leadership Commandment 1 - are fundamentally the same.</p>

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<p>Dad & Grad - sorry about the whole honor code/concept thing - that was a low blow - I do agree with you 100%. The intent of both is the same both as a cadet/midshipman and as an officer.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It just plain old bugs me to hear people say that you can go to USNA and not worry about leading people when you're commissioned.

[/quote]

yep - just as it bugs me when people say if you go to West Point you will end up a mudcrawler. Or that there are "more" opportunities in the Navy.</p>

<p>My daughter applied to both. Looked at USCGA as well. She wanted USMA - for a long time. Wise mom said - look don't put all your eggs in one basket - you like the beach and the ocean apply to USNA (haha) - she did. Loves Annapolis - has been there several times ( the city and the academy).
track coach at USNA wooed her. softly. if you come you can run sort of things. of course kids like to be wanted.<br>
She decided flying helicopters would be cool and she can do that from either.
She ended up getting a nomination to USMA and not USNA - our district in PA is very very competitive for USNA . without a nomination the coach dropped her.
Turned out to be a blessing - she confided in me afterward - she never was really enamored with the thought of spending a few years on a navy ship.
All she really had to do was say that in the beginning.
She is hoping to fly choppers, or Corps of Engineers - or who knows?</p>

<p>Seriously, on the leadership side - USMA has done a lot of work on Leader development in the last several years. Everything done in the Corps of Cadets is designed for them to take with them as officers. They are committed to developing "professional officers". Does Navy and Air Force have the same goal - sure but USMA may have one up one them this time.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
When it's USAFA vs. USNA, sometimes the candidates don't know that the Navy even HAS airplanes

[/quote]

Does this mean the "Top Gun effect" is over? ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
or believe that USAF pilots are somehow higher in the food chain than Navy pilots.

[/quote]

They aren't??? (My dad is retired AF :) )</p>

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<p>I had a REALLY hard time choosing between USMA and USNA, and as I have said before, I think I'd have been happy if it turned out the other way.</p>

<p>When I thought of WP, I thought of Eisenhower, Patton, Pershing, Grant, Lee and Jackson - and many others. A truly great pantheon of leaders of men.</p>

<p>Everyone has heard about West Point. When I said "Annapolis" to some people they thought I was talking about Indiana. So, you resort to things like, "It's like West Point only for the Navy." "Oh, really? I didn't know we had another academy like that." YGTBSM...was my next thought.</p>

<p>I didn't know anything about Michelson, Nimitz, Mitscher, Halsey, Spruance, McCain or Rickover - but I soon learned what most Americans don't know about the kind of graduates USNA produces and the contributions and sacrifices they've made for this country.</p>

<p>I had more personal contact with Naval Officers and USNA grads. In the end, I liked what I saw in them, and that tipped the scale for me. I don't think I met any West Point folks in person until after I was accepted to USMA.</p>

<p>Not to open another can of worms, but my general observation and experience has been that Army and Navy grads have a lot closer bond with each other than we do with USAFA grads - in general. I ALWAYS root for Army - especially when playing USAFA (like this weekend).</p>

<p>I have nothing but the highest regard for USMA, its mission, its history and its graduates, and the parents who send their kids there.</p>

<p>I'm out.</p>

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<p>the torpedo had to choose between USNA, USMMA and USMA. Noms for all. Had reasons for wanting each... decisions can be tough, but lucky that he had great options to choose from. Civilian colleges not to shabby either.</p>

<p>Any way you slice it, it is an honor and a privilage to have been deemed worthy of an appointment. Why one over the other somestimes comes down to the other intangables..... overnight stays at each can go a long way in sorting it all out.....and in pointing out the differences...pro and con....that each have to offer.</p>

<p>If asked, you should be able to articulate why one over another, IMO. Visiting, doing an overnight, doing your HW as to each and where each leads when 4 years is up- is all part of it. IMO, it is something you owe yourself as part of what is a best fit for you.... </p>

<p>the torpedo narrowed down his choice between USNA and USMA.... and it was hard making his final decision, but make it he did. Revisiting both helped. </p>

<p>Best of luck to all who have the privilage of choosing between these programs- no matter which path you take, you will be walking an honorable one!</p>